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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

What I can say is by-and-large, GW players are an incredibly hopeful lot. They will break out or start an army at the slightest hint that GW game isn't completely horrible. It seems an even split if they will just shelve their army and wait for the game to be 'balanced', 'good' or whatever they are looking for when that GW game turns out to inevitably not be. Another portion will continue just to play even if it looks like they aren't having a great deal of fun (sunk cost fallacy maybe). My experience has been, even if you do manage to get a group going outside of GW games, all it takes is the hope of an idea that this edition has turned it around this time and players will leave whatever game they are currently playing to go back. By the time they discover it isn't all they hoped for, that other gaming group has long since dissolved into other games or just stopped playing altogether and there is no going back. Games Workshop games apparently get infinite re-tries, anybody else get a single shot at best and should consider themselves lucky to get that shot. That is my observation.

This has been 100% my observation as well. GW's all but kicking it's customers between the legs with every purchase around 2014/2015 caused such a decent chunk of people to go elsewhere, it was arguably the healthiest time for wargaming as a whole. Plenty of decent Kickstarters, smaller companies/games getting an injection of newblood, enthusiasm and money to expand the game itself, a lot of diversity in what smaller, cheaper games you could dip your toe into and try something else.

Then GW practise a basic social media presence, throw some self-aware jokes around and the beaten spouses are crawling back to their abusive ex because he got out of rehab and said "I've changed, honey!" I'm not immune to it either unfortunately - barring Underworlds which I genuinely enjoy - as it's now my only option if I want to do any wargaming (again). It's only three years later with 8th as bloated as 7th, more hilarious price rises and as horrific balance as ever that people are looking in the mirror with bruised eyes and asking "Did they really though?" Of course there's now been enough newblood through GW's genuinely good PR campaigns and influences to replace them and bring in new generations of white knights. The abundance of social media shills desperately trying to get GW's attention for free stuff/previews/head pats doesn't help when they're shrieking about how Everything Is Awesome.

Cities of Sigmar at least gets me use out of my WHFB models and the Old World announcement makes me slightly less bitter about it... although I'd rather support Mantic via KOW, but that's not an option around here anymore.

Sunk Cost Fallacy. Hell of a drug.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/26 19:19:35


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Sunk Cost Fallacy. Hell of a drug.


You could say its the perfect drug.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I'm not convinced it's sunk cost fallacy. I mean, that likely factors in a bit but if those people went to other games and played them, sometimes for years, before going back there would be a sunk cost fallacy there as well.

No, it's something else that keeps the hope that "this time" will be different for Warhammer which other games don't have. I've seen too many people that were happily playing another game immediately stop and drop that game like a hot potato when a new edition of warhammer comes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/26 19:38:41


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think part of it is the story and setting.

GW has always been really strong with the setting and themes of their races and world. Even very meta-hungry chasers who don't read the lore can still give you a decent accounting of the broad background of most races and their ideals and style as a faction and the general setting of the games.

The fact that GW puts together codex/battletomes with stories, lore and background; that they have a whole wing making books for their game; audio books; games; artwork; media in general. That builds a story and people like stories; they like being part of stories and telling stories.


A lot of other games the lore might take up a few pages; sometimes its never shown anywhere but in a short paragraph or two on the game website. Other times it might be in depth but never actually anywhere but the designers head. They don't build a story into each model. With 40K each model has a story behind it that is more than purely its role on the tabletop.


You can tell the tale that slaaesh seeker riders are deamons who went deep into the gardens of Slaanesh to tame their wild and deadly mounts from the open plains. Seating a saddle of gold upon them to aid in entrapping and taming them to their cause; that their tongues lick brings lethargy and numbness to the body and soul and eventually death.

Everyone knows that "red makes it go fasta!"


This builds something that acts as a long lasting draw to the game and GW are masters at this. Even if their story writing might at times not be the best in the business; its a solid good standard and they keep to this. That's why we'll never see "codex without fluff" because the fluff is one of those big long term draws that works alongside the quality of the model and the rules and the other people at the game club.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Wayniac wrote:
So what's the reason then? Why do people inevitably go back to GW after seeing what things are like over the hill? The only thing i can think of is that it's that odd sense that you can do casual or competitive.


Because I'm a miniatures gamer who can and does enjoy multiple different games/systems/editions. I can even do this at the same time! - Get together with a couple of friends one evening & play some AoS/WHFB, & then get together with a different group of friends come sat/sun for something Historical (WWII & Age of Sale stuff usually).

With GW? In the past I've enjoyed various editions of both WHFB & 40k (some more than others), as well as some of the other side games to varying degrees - Blood Bowl, Epic, Necrcomunda, etc.
So yes, when GW releases a new edition of WHFB (& and now AoS) or 40k I'll give it a look.
Sometimes I like what I see & stick around. Sometimes I don't, turn, & head back over the hill. And sometimes at some point I decide I'm not having enough fun & step away until a new edition arrives.


   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 auticus wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Except the games you mentioned aren't wargames. D&D especially is nothing like a wargame. Frostgrave is the closest, but the analogous games would still be Necromunda, Kill Team, and Warcry.

I'd be happy to jump in on a KoW, Conquest, or whatever other wargame that offers better rules. But I can't play them. There's no day I can show up and get pick-up games, and if I join a schedules league it means I could end up driving an hour to meet with someone. I can't just play the game I have to jump through hoops to get to the point where models are being put on the table.


Thats the roughest spot for me recruiting conquest.

“Its a great game and awesome but i cant get pickup games when i want”

We have a monthly get together and a regular league starting in january. But i doubt we will get beyond 15 players until a year has passed and people see us still playing.


If you're lucky. I've said this many a time (well, my FLGS owner has...). "Gamers are the flakiest bunch of people I have ever met.". How many of those people who said they would definitely, honest, no really this time- play for deffos bailed at the last minute (only to spend that money they don't have on MTG and/or Domino's pizza... ) despite initially being all in on wanting to play?

Then another new game appears and the process begins anew.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/26 21:51:07



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 Grimtuff wrote:


If you're lucky. I've said this many a time (well, my FLGS owner has...). "Gamers are the flakiest bunch of people I have ever met.". How many of those people who said they would definitely, honest, no really this time- play for deffos bailed at the last minute (only to spend that money they don't have on MTG and/or Domino's pizza... ) despite initially being all in on wanting to play?

Then another new game appears and the process begins anew.


I feel targeted. I'm thoroughly excited for the new Group Narrative Campaign with our amazing 10 people wanting to participate, only to have 2-3 other people show up for game days ever. I just don't get why people agree to plans and bail last minute instead of being big enough to turn it down at the moment, or at least in advance... Anywho, that's my reason why I'm not currently playing AoS. Not for lack of trying, but lack of turn-out

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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Wayniac wrote:
I'm not convinced it's sunk cost fallacy. I mean, that likely factors in a bit but if those people went to other games and played them, sometimes for years, before going back there would be a sunk cost fallacy there as well.

No, it's something else that keeps the hope that "this time" will be different for Warhammer which other games don't have. I've seen too many people that were happily playing another game immediately stop and drop that game like a hot potato when a new edition of warhammer comes.

I don't think it's purely Sunk Cost Fallacy, but I do think there's a psychological element that's beyond pure money. There's manhours spent, there's enjoyment of the universe/lore (most of the writing is trash but the same people who say it can't help but still be drawn to the IP) and there's that "first crush" vibes of Warhammer being your first ever wargame, usually from a much younger age than when you start looking into others, that won't help.

I think mainly though it does come back to that old chestnut that 40k and now, to a lesser extent, AoS will always be 'safe'. You will always find 40k players no matter where you go, hell even on a lot of military bases. There will pretty much never be a time where you cannot invest money into 40k and risk that it's going to be gathering dust because everybody went off to another game. I think a lot of going back to 40k/GW stems from a kind of understandable fear that they're going to be left behind if they spend anymore money on whatever non-GW product they're playing? But I do think also part of it is honest curiosity in a new edition.

They grab the book - because what's £30 in the grand scheme? - play a few games, it's not AS bad as they remember it (being new and shiny) and then they get wrapped up in the excitement that SO MANY players are currently sharing. Compared to their current non-GW product where the only buzz will be among their little circle. It sucks, but this is my guess in part.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/27 00:04:25


 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

MongooseMatt wrote:
As it happens... I think I am coming back to Age of Sigmar.

That narrative campaign system for Mawtribes in the latest White Dwarf went right up my flagpole and got saluted. In built storyline, lots of variation in enemies and Battleplans. I went straight out and got myself a Gutbusters force, and will be painting them up over Christmas.

Watch out for the battle reports next year

Well that made my day. Your Realmgate Wars adventures were super entertaining.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I'm not playing AoS because I'm using my GW minis to play One Page Rules games, frankly. It's more fun than worrying about GW and their supposed game balance and chasing the meta. I like deep rules as much as anyone, but as a player since Rogue Trader 40k, eventually with most GW games there ends up being too many layers added from too many sources, and it's like owning a set of encyclopedias.

Sometimes less is more, especially when I value the minis and terrain more than wading through interconnecting rules. Both Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy are perfectly fun, with a one page codex for any of the armies, and a shared set of core rules for both settings that also work for skirmish gaming, that can fit on less paper than AoS took up when it first came out. That's a huge blessing when games have to be fit in around adult life and kids.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/11/27 06:05:06




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

No disrespect, but thats at least the second time you posted that same info. Do you get kickbacks for plugging One Page Rules or something?

Usually a sign that a thread has run its course when folks start to double back like that. Sure thats not the only one in a 40+ page thread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:

MongooseMatt wrote:
As it happens... I think I am coming back to Age of Sigmar.

That narrative campaign system for Mawtribes in the latest White Dwarf went right up my flagpole and got saluted. In built storyline, lots of variation in enemies and Battleplans. I went straight out and got myself a Gutbusters force, and will be painting them up over Christmas.

Watch out for the battle reports next year


Awwww, yeah!!!

Welcome back

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/27 06:55:20


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

One-Page-Rules is the prime example on how to write simple rules but keep tactical depth and balance

something GW never understood while changing from the old style of rules, were number of pages were seen as sign of quality (and there are still people out there believing what GW said, that only ruleset with hundreds of pages will provide tactical option) to the new style with the lowest number of pages possible

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 nels1031 wrote:
No disrespect, but thats at least the second time you posted that same info. Do you get kickbacks for plugging One Page Rules or something?

Usually a sign that a thread has run its course when folks start to double back like that. Sure thats not the only one in a 40+ page thread.


Aw, crap. Whoops! Like you said, sometimes when threads start to meander people forget when/how they posted in them, me included.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/27 11:51:26




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I frequently repost stuff because I can't remember what I said before xD

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




That and in a 43 page conversation things get lost or forgotten or people join the conversation from the last page and have no idea you said that.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Plus it's a bit funny that if anything, I could be accused of being a GW shill rather than for One Page Rules, as for nearly 20 years my license plate has read "WH 40K".



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Plus it's a bit funny that if anything, I could be accused of being a GW shill rather than for One Page Rules, as for nearly 20 years my license plate has read "WH 40K".
Yikes!

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



York, PA USA

The space marine looking guys are not interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/01 14:37:08


 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





kenofyork wrote:
The space marine looking guys are not interesting.


There is at least one hand worth of fingers in other factions though. I won't comment if they are more or less interesting than Stormcast Enternals, but to condemn an entire game based on like 5% of the factions seems a tad bit dismissive overall. Doubly so with a single sentence and a vague personal opinion.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
kenofyork wrote:
The space marine looking guys are not interesting.


There is at least one hand worth of fingers in other factions though. I won't comment if they are more or less interesting than Stormcast Enternals, but to condemn an entire game based on like 5% of the factions seems a tad bit dismissive overall. Doubly so with a single sentence and a vague personal opinion.

Considering how favoured they seem I can understand it. It burns you out when a game pours love onto the Marines/Stormies and you get left behind.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I'd chime in with agreement as well. Stormcast get new units and books like space marines do, even though they only make up a fraction of the factions.

It can be exhausting if you are not a stormcast. Especially when you watch the faction you love not get anything for over four years.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Let's be honest; they aren't as bad as Space Marines when it comes to hogging releases. For starters they're confined to one measly battletome!

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 auticus wrote:

It can be exhausting if you are not a stormcast. Especially when you watch the faction you love not get anything for over four years.


I don't think it's fair to say the AoS release schedule is slow at all...

Even with lots of of stormcast releases, in 4 years time since the AoS release, ALL major factions will have been updated. That's an absolute break-neck pace compared to the old WHFB days.

Hell, lots of other armies are even seeing a third (like BoK) or second iteration by now (Bonesplitters, Ironjawz, Sylvaneth, Flesh-eater courts). Armies being left to linger for too long because of "faux space marine complaints" is not a very valid argument in my book.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Honestly I think that even GW doesn't want to repeat the marketing quirk that is marines with stormcast. Sure they used them on the same design principles, butI don't think GW wants 10 Stormcast Chamber armies. I think they'd much rather a more even spread of sales through the range. I think that's why they've done big things like making Nighthaunt the other half of the pushfit starter set model range; why a lot of the BL books are not all stormcast.

I think that the days when it was "all stormcast" were are the very early days of AoS when it was a very different game and management approach.


Another element is that AoS has less niches than 40K. Even though 40K got rid of the old Force Organisation chart; it still has a lot of subdivisions of unit types within it; which in turn breeds more niches and thus more model requirements. AoS has far fewer - we've even got armies with a very tiny variety of models and they can still battle almost anything that comes their way pretty well. As a result Stormcast have even less room to fit in more options until GW creates more unit niches and specialisations.

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Clousseau




I don't think it's fair to say the AoS release schedule is slow at all...


As a slaves to darkness player... I've watched something like four stormcast books come out while having to watch slaves of darkness get 0 books in four years. Kharadron Overlords are next up in the flaming pile of useless rules pit that have watched the same thing. Then there are the mediocre 2.0 books that can't keep up with the power books that have to wait who knows how long before they are able to be viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/02 19:17:42


 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Oh sure, I'm not denying there haven't been many SCE releases... And if you play StD primarily, you literally are the worst of out of all AoS players in terms of having to wait for a tome (ignoring that mini Everchosen tome). The rules design for StD did allow them to be played in many allegiances though throught he mark system (although I do hate "rainbow chaos warriors as an army collector myself).

All I'm saying is that despite lot's of SCE releases, it's not like it's stopping other factions from being update rather rapidly (hell, getting a book in 4 years as a "GW veteran" is blisteringly fast compared to the olden days).

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
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 Elmir wrote:
 auticus wrote:

It can be exhausting if you are not a stormcast. Especially when you watch the faction you love not get anything for over four years.


I don't think it's fair to say the AoS release schedule is slow at all...

Even with lots of of stormcast releases, in 4 years time since the AoS release, ALL major factions will have been updated. That's an absolute break-neck pace compared to the old WHFB days.

Hell, lots of other armies are even seeing a third (like BoK) or second iteration by now (Bonesplitters, Ironjawz, Sylvaneth, Flesh-eater courts). Armies being left to linger for too long because of "faux space marine complaints" is not a very valid argument in my book.

Some armies are just left to linger in general. It looks bad for a game if a conversation can go like "I used to play Fantasy, can I play in AoS with my army?" "No. You have the bare minimum in rules and awful power and that's for the few models left."

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Astonished of Heck

pm713 wrote:
 Elmir wrote:
 auticus wrote:

It can be exhausting if you are not a stormcast. Especially when you watch the faction you love not get anything for over four years.


I don't think it's fair to say the AoS release schedule is slow at all...

Even with lots of of stormcast releases, in 4 years time since the AoS release, ALL major factions will have been updated. That's an absolute break-neck pace compared to the old WHFB days.

Hell, lots of other armies are even seeing a third (like BoK) or second iteration by now (Bonesplitters, Ironjawz, Sylvaneth, Flesh-eater courts). Armies being left to linger for too long because of "faux space marine complaints" is not a very valid argument in my book.

Some armies are just left to linger in general. It looks bad for a game if a conversation can go like "I used to play Fantasy, can I play in AoS with my army?" "No. You have the bare minimum in rules and awful power and that's for the few models left."

Mostly true. While at this point I think we can leave the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings out of those connotations, people who were playing the Empire, High Elves, or a few of the others who have languished for this long without a 'Tome, have definitely been on the outlier.

The only thing I really disagree with is the "can't play" connotation. You can play with any of them, but just prepared to be flat out stomped unless the other player is willing to leave their 'Tome out of it (and even then...). "Playing" doesn't mean "win".

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Elmir wrote:All I'm saying is that despite lot's of SCE releases, it's not like it's stopping other factions from being update rather rapidly (hell, getting a book in 4 years as a "GW veteran" is blisteringly fast compared to the olden days).

GW having been even more gak in the past doesn't make them not gak now.

pm713 wrote:Some armies are just left to linger in general. It looks bad for a game if a conversation can go like "I used to play Fantasy, can I play in AoS with my army?" "No. You have the bare minimum in rules and awful power and that's for the few models left."

It's a new game and GW are moving on, they just don't want to do say it, because they could still sell some old models.

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 Charistoph wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Elmir wrote:
 auticus wrote:

It can be exhausting if you are not a stormcast. Especially when you watch the faction you love not get anything for over four years.


I don't think it's fair to say the AoS release schedule is slow at all...

Even with lots of of stormcast releases, in 4 years time since the AoS release, ALL major factions will have been updated. That's an absolute break-neck pace compared to the old WHFB days.

Hell, lots of other armies are even seeing a third (like BoK) or second iteration by now (Bonesplitters, Ironjawz, Sylvaneth, Flesh-eater courts). Armies being left to linger for too long because of "faux space marine complaints" is not a very valid argument in my book.

Some armies are just left to linger in general. It looks bad for a game if a conversation can go like "I used to play Fantasy, can I play in AoS with my army?" "No. You have the bare minimum in rules and awful power and that's for the few models left."

Mostly true. While at this point I think we can leave the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings out of those connotations, people who were playing the Empire, High Elves, or a few of the others who have languished for this long without a 'Tome, have definitely been on the outlier.

The only thing I really disagree with is the "can't play" connotation. You can play with any of them, but just prepared to be flat out stomped unless the other player is willing to leave their 'Tome out of it (and even then...). "Playing" doesn't mean "win".

Playing means that you have a reasonable chance to win most of the time. Not by playing this army you will certainly lose barring incompetence or extreme luck.

@DarkBlack. That's dumb. AoS is a sequel to Fantasy, you can't just ignore it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 06:35:43


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