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Bharring wrote:
Then should they rename it to 'Fortunate shooting'? or 'Guide thy killing'?

Because that's not DOOM. Doom is 'You're doomed'. Fell out of bed, but didn't die outright from the ordeal? Reroll. Stub your toe, but it didn't cause massive blood loss? Reroll. Get run over by a semi but somehow survive? Reroll.

It's not about what's shooting you. It's about you being doomed.

Didn't they have a power called Guide that made a unit better at shooting?

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

It's effective once doom enters the picture.

Doom has no bearing on the conversation as Doom makes anything better. That's an issue with Doom not poisoned weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

It's effective once doom enters the picture.

Doom has no bearing on the conversation as Doom makes anything better. That's an issue with Doom not poisoned weapons.

Indeed, it's an ability so great it even has it's own song:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

catbarf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Straken + Priest + Guardsmen + Artillery & Shadowsword is a cancer list.

4ppm models should not have 3 strength 4 attacks rerolling failed hits. That's just fething dumb.

Where does the re-rolling failed hits come from? Straken and Priest each confer +1A.

And it's not really 4ppm models when you have to spend three whole squads worth of points to get those buffs, now is it?

Considering you have to take HQs anyway, it's not a cost. Straken is 75 points, a priest is 35. Don't forget you can issue orders to these squads, too. Not to mention you could also just pay another 180 points and get 2 commanders and 30 more guardsmen.

Oh look i have 60 bodies on the table and 4 HQs to the tune of 410 points. You can literally build an entire list after doing that.

Rapid Fire 24" guns
3 str4 attacks in melee per guy
Orders
Can be blobbed into bigger squads
+10 Command Points
Kurov's Aquila

All for 400 points.

It's dumb. It's just dumb.

I'm not arguing that it isn't an issue, but isn't this more along lines of the Alaitoc, or Raven Guard problem? That is, the specific buffs from a subfaction (Catachan getting Strength 4) plus the Catachan only HQ that buffs only Catachans? To be precise - the melee strength wouldn't mean as much with any other guard faction, as the Priest would only be granting an extra attack to strength 3 units for 2 attacks total, but with Catachan, they get the boost to strength and Straken gives them an additional attack for 3 total.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still perfectly fine with seeing a large number of low priced units (Infantry Squads, Fire Warriors, Ork Boyz if codex buffs them at all, Kabalites, Skitarii) go up a point, but the argument here seems to be specifically nerf the faction because the subfaction has the issue.


Sidenote, I glanced through my book and can't seem to find the rerolling hits bit either. Is that with melee? Or are you talking about the Take Aim order to reroll hits of 1 in the shooting phase? Both Straken and the Priest have rules for rerolling for themselves personally - Straken rerolls wounds vs Monsters, and the Priest can reroll hits if he charged, got charged, or heroically intervened, but that isn't the whole blob either. I'm just trying to figure out what bit I am missing here...

The way 8th rolls, squatting doom might be the only way to balance it. It's a spell to increase lethality in a game that doesn't need that.

Martel732 wrote:
The way 8th rolls, squatting doom might be the only way to balance it. It's a spell to increase lethality in a game that doesn't need that.

the core problem with a d6 system.

If 70% of the game hits on a 3+ and saves on a 3+ Then what is the point? Change the entire system from a D6 to a D8 or D10 system and greatly vary the stat lines of units.

Honestly, that's what I like about AoS though, if you wanted to go the other rout and keep the D6 system.

Toughness
Wounds
Leadership
Save

Everything else is already factored into the profile. Simple, easy, no fuss, no argument. Add in modifiers and bam, system can be flexible and smart, while still not being clunky.

Martel732 wrote:
The way 8th rolls, squatting doom might be the only way to balance it. It's a spell to increase lethality in a game that doesn't need that.

Nah, it doesn't need to be squatted. What we need is more universal means of dealing with Psykers. Too many armies lack psychic defense making some powers basically too good since they never get countered.

The whole psychic phase is extremely wonky and inconsistent, to be honest... it's presence does more to put the game in the hands of a single dice roll than anything else. "Did you get Death Hex off or not" is an enormous swing in value and will absolutely be the difference between a dead knight or not. Every psyker heavy army is like this.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The whole psychic phase is extremely wonky and inconsistent, to be honest... it's presence does more to put the game in the hands of a single dice roll than anything else. "Did you get Death Hex off or not" is an enormous swing in value and will absolutely be the difference between a dead knight or not. Every psyker heavy army is like this.

Except Thousand Sons. If one Smite fails you can just do it again thirteen more times that turn!

Technically marines have psykers, but lobbies are so crappy I don't count them. So yeah, I completely agree. More psychic defense.

Martel732 wrote:
Technically marines have psykers, but lobbies are so crappy I don't count them. So yeah, I completely agree. More psychic defense.

Primaris Libbies are pretty good. Extra wound without paying more? Sign me up. That said, the power pool is pretty pants so that's a whole different problem.

Without factoring in support via soup: Black Templars, Necrons (Gloom Prism is a nice attempt but fails to really do anything honestly), Mono-faction Dark Eldar, Tau, Custodes, and likely a few I'm forgetting, lack proper methods to deal with psykers, much less armies like Thousand Sons or Eldar who can spam them like there is no tomorrow.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

I can agree with upping it's cost to manifest as that is incredibly valid. I was more saying that psychic powers have always been less restrictive than things like auras, special rules or stratagems in terms of which faction in your army can benefit.

 Marmatag wrote:
"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

Almost everything list is less efficient against hoards than against mid tier or elite infantry units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

I can agree with upping it's cost to manifest as that is incredibly valid. I was more saying that psychic powers have always been less restrictive than things like auras, special rules or stratagems in terms of which faction in your army can benefit.

It's interactions with haywire etc would mean it's casting value should be like 9 as even at 8 with the free rerolls farseers get it's wat to easy to cast for the benifit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The whole psychic phase is extremely wonky and inconsistent, to be honest... it's presence does more to put the game in the hands of a single dice roll than anything else. "Did you get Death Hex off or not" is an enormous swing in value and will absolutely be the difference between a dead knight or not. Every psyker heavy army is like this.

Except Thousand Sons. If one Smite fails you can just do it again thirteen more times that turn!

Smite, sure. But I used Death Hex as an example because Thousand Sons is one of my armies. If you are up against a unit that is reliant on its invuln to survive, then getting that spell off means you win. If you somehow manage to perils instead? Well, you probably lost that game.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The whole psychic phase is extremely wonky and inconsistent, to be honest... it's presence does more to put the game in the hands of a single dice roll than anything else. "Did you get Death Hex off or not" is an enormous swing in value and will absolutely be the difference between a dead knight or not. Every psyker heavy army is like this.

Except Thousand Sons. If one Smite fails you can just do it again thirteen more times that turn!

Smite, sure. But I used Death Hex as an example because Thousand Sons is one of my armies. If you are up against a unit that is reliant on its invuln to survive, then getting that spell off means you win. If you somehow manage to perils instead? Well, you probably lost that game.

Yeah, if we're talking an all Knight army with a CP farmed Castellan perhaps (since you can Smite it to death in a single turn). Not too many armies are so reliant on good invuls on units that can also survive mass smiting like that army is.

Point was more that there is an exception to the rule rather more than anything. Also, the power balance is incredibly swingy. Some powers you need every game no matter what (and not just because of personal preferences on which you find best for your playstyle) which really makes players more likely spam means of getting off said power at the cost of everything else.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The whole psychic phase is extremely wonky and inconsistent, to be honest... it's presence does more to put the game in the hands of a single dice roll than anything else. "Did you get Death Hex off or not" is an enormous swing in value and will absolutely be the difference between a dead knight or not. Every psyker heavy army is like this.

Couldn't we just rework psychic abilities:

For example:

No Psychic Phase
Instead different units have psychic abilities built into their data sheet. Powers become unique to the model, rather than being pulled off a chart.

Then we could treat the psychic abilities in a number of different ways.

Example:

A Psychic attack could be used in the shooting/fight phase
Where as a buff or debuff would specify that it can only be used in phase "x,y,z"

At any point psychic units close enough to the caster could attempt to intervene as we do now, just it would be a reaction happening in that phase instead of one single phase for all psychics.

I mean theoretically you could use this system to make units extremely variable and this could even add a whole host of new spells and unique interactions to what I personally feel is a very dull and stagnant magic phase currently.

No, the psychic phase is fine in practice and is better than the old "at the start of ..." powers we had. Putting the powers in a chart is fine too, the thing I see is that we really should be paying points for powers. But by that logic, warlord traits should cost points too. And so should relics. And so should all wargear given to a model.

And then we basically end up going back to 3rd edition's means of doing things.

The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics as well, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they could have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

Eh, Its going to piss off the lore purists - but I feel the DE could very easily have psykers but now due to the free-flowing allied rules they never will. Much like how we will (probably) never get dark-wraithguard/Castigators.
"You can't do psychic in Commorragh, Vect said so."
Well... maybe Vect got over it due the recent drama. Maybe they keep the psykers trapped in horrible pain dimensions that are separate from Commorragh when not raiding real space. Maybe they are just kept in horrible torture chambers in real space.
They could very easily justify Haemis having an ability to disrupt psykers if we are just talking defence (rather than the crucible of malediction being a slightly awkward psyker focused smite stratagem).

Game wise the problem with psychic powers is that its all or nothing. You have to have a good chance of getting an ability off, or its hard to price the psyker. There are similar issues with assault units. How do you price a unit which can't guarantee it will do any damage when ranged units can?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No, the psychic phase is fine in practice and is better than the old "at the start of ..." powers we had. Putting the powers in a chart is fine too, the thing I see is that we really should be paying points for powers. But by that logic, warlord traits should cost points too. And so should relics. And so should all wargear given to a model.

And then we basically end up going back to 3rd edition's means of doing things.

Relics SHOULD cost points. Warlord traits is fine as long as each Trait as merit though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No, the psychic phase is fine in practice and is better than the old "at the start of ..." powers we had. Putting the powers in a chart is fine too, the thing I see is that we really should be paying points for powers. But by that logic, warlord traits should cost points too. And so should relics. And so should all wargear given to a model.

And then we basically end up going back to 3rd edition's means of doing things.

Relics SHOULD cost points. Warlord traits is fine as long as each Trait as merit though.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with that, I mean, I did mention it after all. I was just lamenting that it would likely be too much of a step back for GW to go back to that.

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

Ice_can wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

Or the playtesters didn't find it as broken as it became in the hands of a wider player community.

Ice_can wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

I don't think a lot of things are considered. Doom Haywire is just really effective against things that are otherwise indestructible (which is just about a big a problem as doom haywire - too many invo saves). Is it really any worse than doom buffing dark reapers though? Doom is actually amazing with bladestorm stuff too - probably better than it is with poison.

I feel like nerfing haywire itself would work better. say vs vehicals - instead of rolling to wound - on a 4+ you take 1 mortal wound and on a 6 d3. That way Doom wouldn't affect it.

Then say doom has a casting range of 18" or 12". So at least you have a chance to deny it.

Or make an general game rule that allows you to deny at any range. Or Deny range is determined by the target of the spell. So if a unit of spears was getting buffs from a farseer 30 inches away - you could deny them because their fortune target is 18" away from your psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

Or the playtesters didn't find it as broken as it became in the hands of a wider player community.

"Play-testers"

The same ones that thought Dev Cents should be 80 points base? Those play testers? I don't think these play testers exist.

how about the psychic phase stops being called the psychic phase, and we add rules for tau tech warfare, sob and templar prayers etc With different type of mechanics or synergies with the armies. That could even be a help for mono armies. A sob prayer phase could be more efficient if the whole army is made out of only "holy" detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

[/spoiler]The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

I don't think a lot of things are considered. Doom Haywire is just really effective against things that are otherwise indestructible (which is just about a big a problem as doom haywire - too many invo saves). Is it really any worse than doom buffing dark reapers though? Doom is actually amazing with bladestorm stuff too - probably better than it is with poison.

I feel like nerfing haywire itself would work better. say vs vehicals - instead of rolling to wound - on a 4+ you take 1 mortal wound and on a 6 d3. That way Doom wouldn't affect it.

Then say doom has a casting range of 18" or 12". So at least you have a chance to deny it.

Or make an general game rule that allows you to deny at any range. Or Deny range is determined by the target of the spell. So if a unit of spears was getting buffs from a farseer 30 inches away - you could deny them because their fortune target is 18" away from your psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

But DOOM shouldn't be as easy to cast for the insane buff it currently gives to all Aeldari shooting.
It needs changed to either be alot harder to cast or

If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls againt that unit for friendly craftworld units until your next Psychic phase.

The problem is its range - 24" is too high for a spell that powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The psychic phase is fine. Its just that every army should have something to do in the psychic phase, and the ones who can't should get strong anti-psy to compensate.

Tau should get their nicassar, or guevesa psykers, or some new alien race that look like squids or something.

Necrons should be like dwarfs. Sure, they don't get psychic powers, but they sure as hell aren't going to let you have any either.

Dark Eldar are a bit trickier to design. They shouldn't be like necrons, but they shouldn't get psychics anyway, because the last thing a race hiding from demons wants is to bring what is basically a lighthouse in the warp with them.
Maybe they should have some ability or item that doesn't stop psychic powers, but forces perils instead.
The idea being that they have experience in directing demons away from them to attack something else.

I disagree it's fine. Vs eldar - they are putting doom an a decent target at the minimum - likely the exact target they want with a 22" move on a bike seer. It's reasonable that you wont even be able to deny - because all they have to do is put their doom target between your psyker and themselves and guess what - you can't deny them.

Solution - your psyker out front...Okay - now shinning spears come in and assault your psyker from their deployment zone turn 1. Plus buff their unit outside of deny range - then move in any kill your psyker.

IMO - deny probably just need to be board with with a bonus for being within 18" or 12" kind of how a psychic hood works.

There are ofc a lot of issues with eldar. 22" moves is too much for units that can act as normal afterwards. There is literally 0 counter other than having 80 plus bodies filling you DZ so they have no place to land after a 44 inch move with quicken.

The issue I have with changing the range is as you say bike sears give no care even if it was 12inch as its still a point and delete the target regardless.
Atleast changing it to craftworld would prevent some of the worst abuses of DOOM plus haywire or DOOM plus poison. They just don't feel like that interaction was considered.

Or the playtesters didn't find it as broken as it became in the hands of a wider player community.

"Play-testers"

The same ones that thought Dev Cents should be 80 points base? Those play testers? I don't think these play testers exist.

Reese from Frontline gaming is one of the playtesters, and when you flip open a codex they mention who helped playtest the book.

That said, the playtesters are looking to catch the most broken combos in the books, so units being overpriced is more of a studio issues. And even Reese has mentioned he gets caught by surprise by some of the combos players have found if only because the playtesting team is maybe a dozen people while thousands are combing over these books and looking to create new combos. With only a year into the game we've also seen GW tackle a lot of major issues (with middling results depending on who you ask) that the game has and even bring the points down on some units. But at the end of the day a playtester can only make recommendations, it's the dev team that is responsible for making it actually happen, and I'm willing to bet that when it comes to what is weak, that hasn't been as big of a concern as the way things like alpha strike or 2" charges from atop of buildings have been.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
but a testers job is to exactly to test for the broken stuff. you first check what blows up the engine, and not check what happens if you go safe with it.

And a dozen people (give or take depending on the specific team) will never suss out every problem or possible way to break the game. So yes, they try to break the game and then point out how they could break it, but even that could lead to changes that result in new ways to break the game. Remember, every step of this game's production is handled by people and we're all fallible.

And a dozen people (give or take depending on the specific team) will never suss out every problem or possible way to break the game. So yes, they try to break the game and then point out how they could break it, but even that could lead to changes that result in new ways to break the game. Remember, every step of this game's production is handled by people and we're all fallible.

I am one noob, and I noticed that soul bursting dark reapers at the points cost they had was a problem. How many tests does one need to notice that? But then again if I remember right that Reece guy is the one that told all GK players that they don't know how to play their army, that GK are fine, even powerful and if they need any changes it is nerfs because they are too good. And then proceded to let stuff like dark reaper soul bursts, or super cheap normal smite units pass.

Karol wrote:

And a dozen people (give or take depending on the specific team) will never suss out every problem or possible way to break the game. So yes, they try to break the game and then point out how they could break it, but even that could lead to changes that result in new ways to break the game. Remember, every step of this game's production is handled by people and we're all fallible.

I am one noob, and I noticed that soul bursting dark reapers at the points cost they had was a problem. How many tests does one need to notice that? But then again if I remember right that Reece guy is the one that told all GK players that they don't know how to play their army, that GK are fine, even powerful and if they need any changes it is nerfs because they are too good. And then proceded to let stuff like dark reaper soul bursts, or super cheap normal smite units pass.

Again, final choice on actually acting on playtester feedback is in the studio's hands. You can't tout the end result as solely being the fault of a team who don't make the final changes.

And if that that is true, either Reese is a lot more arrogant than I knew, or he knows something about how the army is supposed to work we have noticed, or both. I don't know. I've got no skin in that game to stress over it honestly.