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 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

chaos45 wrote:
Formosa- think you need to get out more...its a lot more than 1 or 2 players at the 30k events I've been to. I mean unless your going to an event with 10 or less players all the time lol.

You can walk around when people have their armies on display and just go yep several total competitive a-hole lists in the narrative event.

If your flag is anything to go by then italy likely has a different meta, but lets take your anecdote and throw in my own.

I have played all over the world, Australia, Hong Kong (small scene sadly) All over the UK, France, germany, Spain (small scene from what I was told when there), netherlands, all over the USA, Canada, even in moscow.

Perhaps you should get out more


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Glumy wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:

I’m glad it’s working for you and I agree that the 8th edition rules are a good base on which to add extra rules. That makes me think that if GW told FW to change HH to 8th, they could add a layer on top of it that would give me the added complexity I’m looking for.

This might be probably the best solution - optional advanced rules. In this way you could play vs 8th edition 40k armies and it would satisfy (more or less) current 7th edition Horus Heresy fans.

Yep I agree, a hybrid ruleset would be my favourite solution.

Not Italian, American in Italy right now.....my experience is from one of the larger events in the USA.

Here in Italy is one guy that keeps asking about 7th ed 30k....and everyone else that does play 30k Ive met likes 8th ed better.

In fact had a great 30k 8th ed game last week with one of the local players my EC vs his Salamanders with the fan based 8th ed rules on here.

To me the game is amazingly better with toughness/wounds for vehicles and AP values that are incremental. Super heavy armor doesn't tend to dominate the game as much as it did in most 7th ed match ups.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

Ok, neither sentiment is important or helpful for the discussion of what we think will happen with Horus Heresy in the future. None of our opinions and preferences for which ruleset is better are going to be considered when the future is considered.

Whether you think the community is surging or not, I think we can all agree that less people are playing than 2 years ago. So FW/GW have a couple of options. They either try to spend more resources to bring more players in the hope that it can be profitable again or they just let become a legacy ruleset that is not actively supported. I used to think that they would move it to 8th eventually, but with the phase out of baby marines from 40k, I'm starting to think it's the latter. Also, even limited release characters such as the holiday noise marine are coming out in plastic now, so to me that means that resin models are on the way out as far as GW is concerned. For Titanicus the weapon upgrades are being released in plastic as well. All these factors to me signal that a mainline resin game is not something that is going to be supported in the future.

We really won't be able to guess what GW will want to do with the Horus Heresy line unless they give us sales figure. For all we know it could selling well or selling so badly that it will be outright cancelled next year

I do agree that the greater move to plastic with even smaller releases does tell us how robust their pipeline has become. Take into account the holiday release and all the different limited Primaris Lieutenants they've released over the years and one gets the picture that they've got their process down.

There is also another angle that I have been wondering about. With their focus on Chapter Approved, FAQs, and tournaments in general I am wondering if GW is looking at tabletop sports as their future. Wouldn't be surprised as that has been a thing for many game companies in the past few years. With streaming becoming more popular and tourneys getting more attendance I can imagine GW seeing a potential venue for their game.

In fact, now that I think about it, 8th does feel like they were trying to make something that was accessible, easy to read for the most part, but also had the potential for some crazy moves/wildcards in the form of stratagems.

Which brings me to the final point: If they are eyeing TT-Sports, what does that bode for their games and how they approach them.

So many ideas and questions. The future is fun in GWs' hobbies.

My one experience with Horus Heresy organised play was that everyone attending thought they were being casual and laid back, but at least a quarter of them rocked up with tournament-optimised lists and flattened everyone else. I had the bad luck to play against two of them out of four games. Nice enough folk, but I'd have better spent my time getting a cup of tea and browsing the shelves while they got on with removing my models.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Y'know this whole argument of 'can't use my Heresy army in 8th' is rubbish right?
The models are the same, your tactical marines in Heresy will still be tactical/'normal' chaos marines in 8th. Your terminators may suffer depending on loadout, but tanks? Rules for them in 8th. Dreadnought? Rules for them in 8th.

What are you missing - Rites and named characters? Everything else can be converted.

I'm sorry but that excuse is frankly terrible now. The complaint there is people don't want to play different rule sets, or be restricted from using certain cheesy options in a format/system/setting they weren't designed for.

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

bogalubov wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Personally I just like the 8th edition ruleset over 6th and 7th. 6th and 7th are just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value.

If that is the case, then 30K is not for you. Some of us really like 7th ed rules in 30K and have zero interest in moving to 8th ed/40K rules.

8th is just utter gak in my opinion and have little to nothing to add of value for 30K.

Ok, neither sentiment is important or helpful for the discussion of what we think will happen with Horus Heresy in the future. None of our opinions and preferences for which ruleset is better are going to be considered when the future is considered.

Whether you think the community is surging or not, I think we can all agree that less people are playing than 2 years ago. So FW/GW have a couple of options. They either try to spend more resources to bring more players in the hope that it can be profitable again or they just let become a legacy ruleset that is not actively supported. I used to think that they would move it to 8th eventually, but with the phase out of baby marines from 40k, I'm starting to think it's the latter. Also, even limited release characters such as the holiday noise marine are coming out in plastic now, so to me that means that resin models are on the way out as far as GW is concerned. For Titanicus the weapon upgrades are being released in plastic as well. All these factors to me signal that a mainline resin game is not something that is going to be supported in the future.

Everything in this thread is speculation and opinion though. Your assertion that less people are playing 30K than two years ago is an opinion. In my meta, we've actually grown in size. Looking at the 30K Reddit forums, it seems pretty healthy and alive. All the Adepticon events for 30K, and there are more 30K events than 40K events believe it or not, are all sold out. You are speculating on the removal of "baby marines" from 40K. Just because a bunch of stuff is being released in plastic doesn't mean resin is leaving GW. GW hasn't done resin for a couple years now, but Forge World does, and Forge World is a subdivision within GW that has it's own staff and manufacturing facilities. For GW to quit doing resin would mean GW closes down Forge World and folds Specialist Games back into main GW, which wouldn't make sense as they just separated Specialist Games from GW and gave it to Forge World. It would seem GW is supporting Forge World more than it ever has. In the last Forge World Open Day, they stressed that Book 8 is still on the way, and they still have production plans beyond book 8. They have released FAQ/Errata for 30K. They keep releasing new models for 30K. If that wasn't the case, I'd expect them to stop making such statements or just come out and say "Sorry, 30K is dead and will no longer be supported".

An argument can be made that everything you just said confuses and misrepresents the discussion as you state your assertions and speculation as fact. They are not fact. They are assertions, speculations, and opinions, especially when it comes to saying a resin game will no longer be supported.

 Toofast wrote:

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Nobody is saying every single model is compatible. We're saying the vast majority of a collection is.

But, to answer, the Caladius has downloadable 8ed rules on the FW site, in a PDF that says that they're Beta tests for a future publication. A while ago, Fires of Cyraxus was meant to be the next IA book with Mechanicum unit rules. I'm not sure what the status is of that now.

But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

 ArbitorIan wrote:


But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

I want to emphasise this, as it probably makes my point more politely than I did.

 Tamwulf wrote:

An argument can be made that everything you just said confuses and misrepresents the discussion as you state your assertions and speculation as fact. They are not fact. They are assertions, speculations, and opinions, especially when it comes to saying a resin game will no longer be supported.

Every statement I made literally started with "I think" or "In my opinion", so I'm not sure how much more clear I can be that those are not facts. I provided some facts about special release characters and titanicus and then extrapolated what these facts mean for the future of resin miniatures. In terms of stating that the community has shrunk that's also a fact for my local area (which is also in Washington state, so I'm curious where in Washington it's growing). So you can say that my one data point cannot be used to make sweeping comments, but it's not an opinion. Also, for a healthy game the fact that the most active discussion thread is the game's possible demise probably says something.

You will note that none of my guesses for the future rely on stating which ruleset I think is best as our personal preferences have no impact on what will happen in the future.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Nobody is saying every single model is compatible. We're saying the vast majority of a collection is.

But, to answer, the Caladius has downloadable 8ed rules on the FW site, in a PDF that says that they're Beta tests for a future publication. A while ago, Fires of Cyraxus was meant to be the next IA book with Mechanicum unit rules. I'm not sure what the status is of that now.

But, just reiterate because people seem to have trouble with this: nobody is saying your entire army has 100% 8ed rules. They're saying MOST of it does, and MOST people can probably play regular 8ed 40k with their Heresy models if they want.

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

 Toofast wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Y'know this whole argument of 'can't use my Heresy army in 8th' is rubbish right?
The models are the same, your tactical marines in Heresy will still be tactical/'normal' chaos marines in 8th. Your terminators may suffer depending on loadout, but tanks? Rules for them in 8th. Dreadnought? Rules for them in 8th.

What are you missing - Rites and named characters? Everything else can be converted.

I'm sorry but that excuse is frankly terrible now. The complaint there is people don't want to play different rule sets, or be restricted from using certain cheesy options in a format/system/setting they weren't designed for.

My first heresy army was mechanicum. If I could find a local scene, my next army would be custodes. Please let me know how to use my thanatar or caladius grav tank in 8th edition of 40k cuz my little monkey brain can't quite figure it out.

Please let me know how to play my Deathwing or Sanguinary Guard when GW removed the ability to make them troops. A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

Isn't the whole point is those are meant to allows you to take. Othing but elite choices.

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.

Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.)

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.


While I feel for you spending all that money, we were warned, repeatedly, that it was not designed for 40k play.

When 8th came out i didnt throw my hands up and complain that i could not longer play against 40k armies, mainly because I still can, still own those codexs, but also because I expected an edition change to make it much more difficult in the future anyway... I didnt expect such a change though.





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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

As a Deathwing player its not even remotely the same, plus rule of 3 and deep strike nerf, Deathwing has never been in such a bad place, and yes I am including 3rd when they didnt even have invun saves.

bogalubov wrote:
[Also, for a healthy game the fact that the most active discussion thread is the game's possible demise probably says something.

To be fair, this is a Warhammer 40,000 forum primarily and the vast majority of people with accounts here made them to talk Warhammer 40,000. There's a little bias there in the same way that a dedicated Horus Heresy message board is often times biased towards positivity.

That said, I'm in a WhatsApp group for Scottish Horus Heresy players, which is active pretty much daily with Heresy hobby updates, or rules/fluff/miniature discussion. A lot of the folk in there met at a bi-annual event that a couple of folks run in Stirling which really re-invigorated the scene and I think for a lot of us, gave us a whole new life and purpose to building, collecting and playing 30K again. At this stage, we all just like our miniatures and our game well enough and are generally self-policed well enough that even if ForgeWorld did stop doing new books for Heresy, we'd keep playing and keep the scene alive because we love this game for what it is - much the same way the Middle-earth folks did for their Hobbit SBG for years on life support.

It kind of bums me out to check on this forum every day at work and see that the only thing people here are seemingly interested in talking about with Heresy is whether ForgeWorld cares enough about it, and whether it's going to move to 8th or not - and, of course, whether people hate 7th or hate 8th or whatever. It's almost not worth having a Heresy sub-forum here at all any more (Edit: to be clear, that's not a dig - I haven't exactly been posting content in here myself).

I know I said this earlier but the advantage of the HH moving to 8th or 9th edition is to bring more players into the game while still allowing the 7th edition loving crowd to keep all of the existing books that are out and enjoying that. It's sort of the option that pleases everyone and I think it's definitely the most likely outcome.

There was, as of a couple of years ago at a store that closed, a fairly large group of WHFB player in my area who keep that game's 7th edition alive.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
A bunch of Vanguard Detachments? No thanks.

And what is the reason for that magically not counting, other then it countering your point utterly?

Because you take an army that I started in 4th edition and paid real money for, take it out of the codex by removing their ability to become troops, then by changing force org to be an exercise in maximizing command points my army that was codex legal a couple of years ago comes to the plate with two strikes. I love small elite, fluffy, characterful armies which is why I started Grey Knights, Ogres, Deathwing, Sanguinary Guard, etc. and it's really disappointing to watch an army you paid hundreds of dollars building and converting to disappear. I bought two Aegis defense lines just for the autocannons to make codex-legal Rifleman dreads and they've disappeared from the codex as well.

If/when the HH moves to a new edition that uses the same basic rules as 40k I'm sure you'll see indices like the 40k ones where FW armies will be made legal. In the end this is just a board game we're talking about, not pacemakers or something that important.

 Formosa wrote:

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules...

Except that answer is no longer correct. They are no longer compatible with the Warhammer 40k rules at all. That's the problem. Forgeworld said "While these haven't been balanced against 40k armies, the rules are all compatible". Then they went and made them not compatible. They don't know how to balance even 40k armies against other 40k armies so the balance was never an issue. If anything the 30k stuff was a bit underpowered. Now, balance is irrelevant because the rules for 30k armies are just flat out not compatible with the rules for 40k armies.

Balancing all of the 30k armies to the 40k balance seems like a lot of work. If anything it'd be easier to make a 30k expansion consisting of Eldar and Orks that are balanced to 30k marines so you can have Crusade-era battles with new opponents.

That's a free tip if anyone from FW is reading.

By the way I want to be perfectly clear: I'm not denigrating or challenging the players who like 7th edition that they're wrong. The future of the game is the question here and the future of any game is growth, not pleasing the existing players. GW/FW will do what they think grows the game to a larger customer base.

 Toofast wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

My entire mechanicum collection did not have rules compatible with 8th edition of 40k. Neither does custodes. People who play legions might be able to shoehorn some of their models into a subpar 40k list and play them as codex space marines. That's quite a bit different than being able to play any 30k list against any 40k list as we could do until the day 8th edition released. In areas where 30k never took off (eg the entire Southeastern 1/4 of the United States), at least half of my games with my 30k army were played against 40k armies. When that option was taken away (because nobody playing a 40k army wanted to play a single extra game using the utter clusterfeth that was the 7th edition ruleset), I was no longer able to get enough games with my army to justify keeping it, so it went on ebay.

A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules...

Except that answer is no longer correct. They are no longer compatible with the Warhammer 40k rules at all. That's the problem. Forgeworld said "While these haven't been balanced against 40k armies, the rules are all compatible". Then they went and made them not compatible. They don't know how to balance even 40k armies against other 40k armies so the balance was never an issue. If anything the 30k stuff was a bit underpowered. Now, balance is irrelevant because the rules for 30k armies are just flat out not compatible with the rules for 40k armies.

In all fairness the part you quoted very clearly says rules, not armies, the part you left out .. for some reason

"they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case."

cements that it was the rulebook, not codexs, so the warning is there, also "fine tuned" and "focused" on playing games in the "Horus Heresy" and "this will remain the case" is also a warning that something may come up to make them incompatible.

FW has put a teaser image on FB of Sanguinius fighting Kha'banda.

Fingers crossed for Angelus in 2019?

 Earth127 wrote:
FW has put a teaser image on FB of Sanguinius fighting Kha'banda.

Fingers crossed for Angelus in 2019?

Book 8 was scheduled for 2018 according to the FW Open Day from February. It will probably be available for prerelease at this years FW Open Day in February, and general release soon after.

The book might be released sooner then later. FW has put out the BA Preator in Tartorus Terminator Armor, Preator in Power Armor, a BA pattern Leviathan, and BA Contemptor. If they are teasing Sangy... woot!

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Balancing all of the 30k armies to the 40k balance seems like a lot of work. If anything it'd be easier to make a 30k expansion consisting of Eldar and Orks that are balanced to 30k marines so you can have Crusade-era battles with new opponents.

I don't think we'll ever see 30K become fully compatible with 40K again. That team has something like three guys assigned to it. And Specialist Games is where the extra bodies are going.

I think the closest possible outcome is that the next version of the AoD rulebook blends in some 8th edition mechanics to address the worst aspects of 7th edition. But my bet would be that the AoD core rules stay as is for years (army lists may get addressed, though). It'll be two years between books when Malevolence is released, and there's no reason to think that book 9 (presumably finishing off the SM Legions) is going to follow right on its heels. It'll probably be another two years. A core rules update probably won't be a priority until then at the earliest.

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

 gorgon wrote:

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

Hrm, of late I wouldn't mind slagging on them a bit, with respect to that last bit about supporting 40k products, they basicslly haven't been doing much support. Pretty much everything still uses the Index rules from the start of the edition with only a small handful of new things added since and GW chapter approved points changes, and most everything is in dire need of rules assistance. With the lack of HH stuff and the almost nonexistent 40k support, it really feels like the drive has fallen out of the place.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't want to come off like I'm slagging that team too hard, though. They're a tiny team that's been through a lot, and have a fairly ridiculous task of producing lavish 300 page coffee table books in order to support their game. While supporting 40K products. It's a lot.

Hrm, of late I wouldn't mind slagging on them a bit, with respect to that last bit about supporting 40k products, they basicslly haven't been doing much support. Pretty much everything still uses the Index rules from the start of the edition with only a small handful of new things added since and GW chapter approved points changes, and most everything is in dire need of rules assistance. With the lack of HH stuff and the almost nonexistent 40k support, it really feels like the drive has fallen out of the place.

Admittedly I wanted the Talons of the Emperor book by now. *shrug*

Played some games in 7th vs 40k nids...oh, how fun is to face those big invisibility deathstars with legion, while basically have little to no answer to it, and you are unable to use any templates...

 smurfORnot wrote:
Played some games in 7th vs 40k nids...oh, how fun is to face those big invisibility deathstars with legion, while basically have little to no answer to it, and you are unable to use any templates...

HH doesnt have invisibility anymore? at least not the 7th version of it at any rate, when did you play this game?

Also the timescale for books is off. FW have stated (and I wish I could find the link) that they plan on re-releasing the red Legion's book in 2020 with rules for ALL the Legions, so by that argument Book 9 (the one that actually matters ) should be out before then