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tneva82 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ravagers are good but they have to arrive turn 2 now. You can't drop them on the table turn 1... these guys are made of paper and will die to bolter fire.

A nerf isn't necessary. A dark eldar army doesn't put out a lot of firepower that isn't poisoned. And poisoned against 3+ 2W is a joke, you're not killing anything.

Remember how bad Dark Eldar were pre-codex... worse than everything else in the game.

Well all that poisoning that floored my ork army last time would have killed 64 3+ W2 models...(calculated how many models I lost, divided it by 5/6 to see how many wounds it needed to cause to get past 6+, then divide that by 6 to get how many primaris models died). How many 3+ 2W models you face anyway?

And that was DE army with tons of dark lances as it was designed more with knights in mind...Hardly ideal for splatting boyz and grots.

So that's *expected* 1152 shots of poison to kill that many 3+ 2W.

That's 200 shots per turn.
Assuming ALWAYS rapid fire range.

6 units of Kabalites with blaster put out 48 shots per turn.
6 venoms with splinter cannons put out 72 shots per turn.

And we're essentially half way there. Assuming you're running 2 Archons (cheapest HQ available and staying Kabal) that's a minimum of 920 points. To get you *half* way there, and assuming that NONE of these models die over the course of a 6 turn game. Oh yeah and always rapid fire. Every turn. OH right, one final thing. None of the 3+ guys were ever in cover. EVER.

So yeah, i call BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

It all comes down to tactics and target priority. GW's own Warhammer TV showed how Chaos could beat the IM/BA/IK list.

I haven't seen this batrep but i'm not at all surprised, Chaos in general is top tier. A Chaos player running Death Guard and Renegades won BAO.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

I actually find the imperial soup more boring than mono build Knights, Custodes even mono guard is less boring.

Each one shows of some level of player skill to pilot to multiple wins against a verity of lists.
Cherry picking the best tools from everything Imperium keyworded as per the last GT netlist doesn't show skill it shows someone just throwing money at the game to win.

A weak codex player like non Guilliman marines and GK's souping in some punch fine as those armies do need some help even in a casual meta. But knights pre FAQ, guard, eldar and tau codex's were fairly viable against each other even deathguard with some work could put up a good close game. Now some of those lists need soup for CP or have lost some of the limited synergies they had to bring them up to par.

Winning more than 3 games at ANY tournament with ANY list shows A LOT of skill. People get it into their heads that just taking these super powerful netlists comes with a free pass to the final table but it really really doesn't.

Once you've won enough games at a tournament to play the people who are ACTUALLY good at the game it doesn't really matter what list you're running. This is why you see exact carbon copies of every top tier list sitting in 50th+ place every single event.

Once you've won enough games at a tournament to play the people who are ACTUALLY good at the game it doesn't really matter what list you're running. This is why you see exact carbon copies of every top tier list sitting in 50th+ place every single event.

It doesn't matter ? Or it doesn't matter as long as you play the builds that dominate the meta at the time. Am sure if you took a group of best w40k players from around the world and droped them in to a tournament with GK, they would not achive much.

Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.
It all comes down to tactics and target priority. GW's own Warhammer TV showed how Chaos could beat the IM/BA/IK list.

some chaos build (if you put into chaos the demons) can beat that list. put down 90 Pb's couple of Dp's 1 letter bombs and 1 pink horrors bomb and you ll see that list implode, i did twice in a row and im not a top tournament player, that happened too at HEAT2.
Maybe guys instead wait to read somewhere how beat some lists, should play more, i have the impression many who post here never been to a serious tournament or play just not competitive.

saw an article many years back, for a different game, written by a tournament winner on how he selected his faction.

he noted look at who won the previous year, expect to see a lot of newer players pick that faction as "its the best, it won!".

now look at who does well against that faction, expect to see more experienced players pick that, basically people who don't expect to win but want to win a few games.

he noted a top flight player can win with anything (this was a more balanced game), in 40k a top flight player can take a list from any of the decent factions and come up with a force that will work - ideally in a slightly unexpected way.

then you will see a lot of people try to copy the list, without the understanding of why it was put together that way, or how to really drive it

ERJAK wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

I actually find the imperial soup more boring than mono build Knights, Custodes even mono guard is less boring.

Each one shows of some level of player skill to pilot to multiple wins against a verity of lists.
Cherry picking the best tools from everything Imperium keyworded as per the last GT netlist doesn't show skill it shows someone just throwing money at the game to win.

A weak codex player like non Guilliman marines and GK's souping in some punch fine as those armies do need some help even in a casual meta. But knights pre FAQ, guard, eldar and tau codex's were fairly viable against each other even deathguard with some work could put up a good close game. Now some of those lists need soup for CP or have lost some of the limited synergies they had to bring them up to par.

Winning more than 3 games at ANY tournament with ANY list shows A LOT of skill. People get it into their heads that just taking these super powerful netlists comes with a free pass to the final table but it really really doesn't.

Once you've won enough games at a tournament to play the people who are ACTUALLY good at the game it doesn't really matter what list you're running. This is why you see exact carbon copies of every top tier list sitting in 50th+ place every single event.

Skills at 40k. Heres the list.
#1 - build a strong list that can handle most if not all expected threats
#2 - know all the rules for your own units and most if not all of your potential opponents.
#3 - get lucky - nothing wins a game easier than getting first turn and blowing up half your opponents army. Hope your opponent has bad luck and doesn't make all his 4+ and 5+ invun saves.
#4 - shoot weapons in the right order to ensure all your guns shoot at the most appropriate target (this is the first actual part of 40k skill that requires you to actually use your brain) though a quick check list can make this a no brainier easy (What units in my army have range to only 1 target - shoot those first and so on and so on until you've shot everything)
#5- deploy your army in the most beneficial way ( this is a real skill - mostly it involves placing your units to maximize cover saves while still being in an effective position to make change on the table.
#6 - knowing when you can table and opponent and when you have to play for objectives (this comes down to knowing if you are outmatched or not - basically this is the same as #2) Prioritize when to fight and when to cap (not that hard - about 95% you are better off killing).

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

leopard wrote:
saw an article many years back, for a different game, written by a tournament winner on how he selected his faction.

he noted look at who won the previous year, expect to see a lot of newer players pick that faction as "its the best, it won!".

now look at who does well against that faction, expect to see more experienced players pick that, basically people who don't expect to win but want to win a few games.

he noted a top flight player can win with anything (this was a more balanced game), in 40k a top flight player can take a list from any of the decent factions and come up with a force that will work - ideally in a slightly unexpected way.

then you will see a lot of people try to copy the list, without the understanding of why it was put together that way, or how to really drive it

Well really - lists drive themselves. You are right about being sneaky with a list though. If you can get an unexpected list into the top table - you might have an easy win. For example. A list with 18 harliquen bikes and doom would have won vs IG/Castellan/BA very easily. I suspect you will see that list showing up to big events a lot soon. Plus - it's even less expected with the fly nerf.

Sequencing is a big area of skill, because it depends on foresight. An obvious example is, if i shoot with this weapon and he pulls casualties, i'll be out of range of my charge. A better player would say, "i'm not deep striking here because i'm going to shoot and inflict casualties." And an even better player would say, "i'm moving my force in a different direction as i have melee support on this side of my army. I can deep strike into a location here protecting my flank and prepare for a followup / risk free charge." All of this while taking into account secondaries and overall board control.

It's like saying there's no skill in chess because moving the individual pieces is easy. If you can think 20 moves in advance you're better than people who think 3 moves in advance. yet you both understand how the pieces move and the rules of the game.

Chess is real easy:

"#1 - build a strong list that can handle most if not all expected threats "
White, but a better player can win with black

"#2 - know all the rules for your own units and most if not all of your potential opponents. "
Horsie can jump *Over* their small thingys!

"#3 - get lucky - nothing wins a game easier than getting first turn and blowing up half your opponents army. Hope your opponent has bad luck and doesn't make all his 4+ and 5+ invun saves. "
Gotta get lucky and be given white!

"#4 - shoot weapons in the right order to ensure all your guns shoot at the most appropriate target (this is the first actual part of 40k skill that requires you to actually use your brain) though a quick check list can make this a no brainier easy (What units in my army have range to only 1 target - shoot those first and so on and so on until you've shot everything) "
Gotta move the pawns in front before you move them power pieces. Except for horsie!

"#5- deploy your army in the most beneficial way ( this is a real skill - mostly it involves placing your units to maximize cover saves while still being in an effective position to make change on the table. "
Move your pieces in the most beneficial way - mostly involves placing your pieces to maximize your chances to take their pieces off the board!

"#6 - knowing when you can table and opponent and when you have to play for objectives (this comes down to knowing if you are outmatched or not - basically this is the same as #2) Prioritize when to fight and when to cap (not that hard - about 95% you are better off killing). "
Knowing when to win and when to play for the draw.

It's that easy. Do those 6 things, and you're a grand master!

Everything is easy when you don't know what you're talking about!

Also, horsie needs a buff! Why can't it move *4* squares! Rooks get to move *8*! I'ts mathematically the worst unit in the game!

Pawns only get to move 2 squares once per game and are thereafter limited to 1 square. I'm pretty sure that that makes them the worst unit in the game.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Pawns only get to move 2 squares once per game and are thereafter limited to 1 square. I'm pretty sure that that makes them the worst unit in the game.

But Pawns can be promoted. You don't even have to pay reinforcement points for the promotion!

That doesn't mean that they're not the worst unit. It just means that they have the potential to become more powerful under the guise of another unit.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
That doesn't mean that they're not the worst unit. It just means that they have the potential to become more powerful under the guise of another unit.

Pawns are competitive only if you have a queen, doesn't mean that pawns are fine. It's just the queen which is OP and carries the faction, but if it wasn't for the dumb limit of 1 on the queen, we would be playing "Codex: Queens".

The second you promote a pawn to a queen, you're not playing mono chess, which I officially declare to have more value than soup based chess. I never promote my pawns, I let them reach the edge of the board with nothing to attack, totally unable to move.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Skills at 40k. Heres the list.
#1 - build a strong list that can handle most if not all expected threats
#2 - know all the rules for your own units and most if not all of your potential opponents.
#3 - get lucky - nothing wins a game easier than getting first turn and blowing up half your opponents army. Hope your opponent has bad luck and doesn't make all his 4+ and 5+ invun saves.
#4 - shoot weapons in the right order to ensure all your guns shoot at the most appropriate target (this is the first actual part of 40k skill that requires you to actually use your brain) though a quick check list can make this a no brainier easy (What units in my army have range to only 1 target - shoot those first and so on and so on until you've shot everything)
#5- deploy your army in the most beneficial way ( this is a real skill - mostly it involves placing your units to maximize cover saves while still being in an effective position to make change on the table.
#6 - knowing when you can table and opponent and when you have to play for objectives (this comes down to knowing if you are outmatched or not - basically this is the same as #2) Prioritize when to fight and when to cap (not that hard - about 95% you are better off killing).

The most important point is not in the list:
#7 - ability to read the game and think/plan one or two turns ahead. If you're able to read what the enemy is doing a turn, you will be ahead no matter what.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

And orks are obviously so much more interesting. Or tyranids. Lol.

Cherrypicking best units from codexes is way more boring. Those tournament lists don't soup because it's more interesting but because it gives them MOA POWAAAH!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

So that's *expected* 1152 shots of poison to kill that many 3+ 2W.

That's 200 shots per turn.
Assuming ALWAYS rapid fire range.

6 units of Kabalites with blaster put out 48 shots per turn.
6 venoms with splinter cannons put out 72 shots per turn.

And we're essentially half way there. Assuming you're running 2 Archons (cheapest HQ available and staying Kabal) that's a minimum of 920 points. To get you *half* way there, and assuming that NONE of these models die over the course of a 6 turn game. Oh yeah and always rapid fire. Every turn. OH right, one final thing. None of the 3+ guys were ever in cover. EVER.

So yeah, i call BS

You call BS, I call BS on you calling BS. I know what I saw happening to my poor orks getting that 320+ models getting vaporized by poison that I could literally do zero to stop. The amount of poison shots rerolling hits or wounding on 2+ is just sick. Those 320+ models never stood a chance. Wipeout was foregone conclusion and only thing it didn't happen is that I threw in towel halfway his turn 4. What was left would be wiped out by next turn short of super icy cold dice.

This despite icy cold dice on first turn leaving rather mild damage barring destruction of 3 KMK's.

 helgrenze wrote:

You want a net list. Sorry, I don't really play BA, just know how to look things up.
And that was 5 DC with TH +Sang, Just an example comparing BA to what I normally run that was roughly equal.
How Many Orks? 20 or so? Orks are basically on par with any SM in HTH both hitting on 3+. Of course, Orks get more attacks, but SM have better armor so it evens out. Maybe your oponant forgot the extra wound from being charged?


Lets compare basic Tacticals between base SM and BA: same points, same statline, BA get Red Thirst (+1W in charge situations), BA get Defenders of Humanity (Claim Objectives even if out numbered), BA get access to Inferno Pistol, Base SM get nada.
Advantage BA.

If your only tactic is to leap over intervening units to hit the heavier units behind them, use actual fliers maybe? Or you could drop in a couple Land speeders for roughly the same price each as the Slammies, with better toughness, Better speed, more wounds, and better damage potential, and if you use 3 you get a speed boost.

It's not my job, really, to tell you how to make a list. It's on you to read the materials on your army and make your own list, play a few games, make adjustments... etc...

Just like everyone else.
Adapt and overcome.

BA didnt have a good start. Dante, our chapter master, is expensive and doesnt give extra CPs, like other chapter masters do. Baal predators cant use killshot, like regular preds can. Baal preds cant use the lucifer engines stratagem and fire their flamers, because you must advance, and all the flamers are heavy weapons. SM in general are expensive and squishy. BA got a boost in the april FAQ when FLY ignored vertical distance, which is now nerfed again. BA are JP experts, they should at least get a small advantage over vanilla marines with JP. Right now we are as good as they are, which is wrong. Red thirst is useless for dreadnoughts against T6-7 and less, because they already wound on 2s, and red thirst is only when charged, or being charged. Other SM chapter dreadnoughts benefit from their CT all the time. Our CT red thirst is pretty weak, because it only works in melee (we have to get there first, which has been nerfed by no more deepstrike T1, and no more ignore vertical distances when charging), and only one turn, when charging, being charged, or on heroic intervention. Next turn, still in melee, no more +1 to wound. And upon wings of fire for 2 CP now is a joke as well, the same cost for moving a single model, or a 15 model DC unit to another spot ?

 helgrenze wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So show me some BA lists like that that do well in competitions. Your home games don't count. Talk here is when people aren't fielding piss poor lists for fun

5 DC+sang? Dead meat. Especially now. You charge IG infantry squad(only thing IG allows you to charge now that flyers can't ignore screen) and then blows them up. DC isn't even particularly tough one. I have ran over 10 with ork boyz. They hit fine but don't take damage well. Before it could work when they could charge past screens so might actually hit something worthwhile but now...well orks will stop them with grots and then charge up with boyz and kill 'em. And if ORKS can deal with them poor fellows seeing how underpowered orks are.

You want a net list. Sorry, I don't really play BA, just know how to look things up.
And that was 5 DC with TH +Sang, Just an example comparing BA to what I normally run that was roughly equal.
How Many Orks? 20 or so? Orks are basically on par with any SM in HTH both hitting on 3+. Of course, Orks get more attacks, but SM have better armor so it evens out. Maybe your oponant forgot the extra wound from being charged?

Lets compare basic Tacticals between base SM and BA: same points, same statline, BA get Red Thirst (+1W in charge situations), BA get Defenders of Humanity (Claim Objectives even if out numbered), BA get access to Inferno Pistol, Base SM get nada.
Advantage BA.

If your only tactic is to leap over intervening units to hit the heavier units behind them, use actual fliers maybe? Or you could drop in a couple Land speeders for roughly the same price each as the Slammies, with better toughness, Better speed, more wounds, and better damage potential, and if you use 3 you get a speed boost.

It's not my job, really, to tell you how to make a list. It's on you to read the materials on your army and make your own list, play a few games, make adjustments... etc...

Just like everyone else.
Adapt and overcome.

Aaah how nice of you. "I'm right, all the tournament experts with years of experience are wrong because I say so".

And lol you are comparing against base SM? Who says base SM is good either? MARINES SUCK in competive game. Only thing blood angels had in them was smashcaptain. Now that's nerfed they are in same boat as base SM. Out of competition when lists are tuned up to the max.

Land speeders...You seriously suggest those overpriced models that can't move and shoot their guns without suffering -1 to hit? Better damage potential...Show me same price speeders blowing up knight in a turn. That's what slamquinus could do. That's what speeders need to do to have "better damage potential". And btw hope you don't say "if I roll max on all dices" as potential as that's the most stupid way to compare. On that logic GROTS are the most broken thing as they outshoot anything per point.

Better toughness btw is irrelevant when you can't be shot like slamquinus could. Speed? DS 9" from enemy, 3d6" charge. That's basically infinite speed as it can go from quarter of table to ither quarter.

Seriously it's very hard to take you seriously when you are praising about LAND SPEEDERS or compare BA to base SM when base SM is so lol bad at high end power lists.

Howabout go play a game or two with top list enviroment and have your army wiped out. That gives you idea of what level of powers we are talking. Gives you better idea of the game.

 helgrenze wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

What's his list?

ccs wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

What's his list?

Does it matter? It's a team tournament. Lots of crazy lists there.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Skills at 40k. Heres the list.
#1 - build a strong list that can handle most if not all expected threats
#2 - know all the rules for your own units and most if not all of your potential opponents.
#3 - get lucky - nothing wins a game easier than getting first turn and blowing up half your opponents army. Hope your opponent has bad luck and doesn't make all his 4+ and 5+ invun saves.
#4 - shoot weapons in the right order to ensure all your guns shoot at the most appropriate target (this is the first actual part of 40k skill that requires you to actually use your brain) though a quick check list can make this a no brainier easy (What units in my army have range to only 1 target - shoot those first and so on and so on until you've shot everything)
#5- deploy your army in the most beneficial way ( this is a real skill - mostly it involves placing your units to maximize cover saves while still being in an effective position to make change on the table.
#6 - knowing when you can table and opponent and when you have to play for objectives (this comes down to knowing if you are outmatched or not - basically this is the same as #2) Prioritize when to fight and when to cap (not that hard - about 95% you are better off killing).

The most important point is not in the list:
#7 - ability to read the game and think/plan one or two turns ahead. If you're able to read what the enemy is doing a turn, you will be ahead no matter what.

Well - that is kinda of part of knowing the rules of the game. Knowing what units can do - what they will do is basically automatic. Good advice though. However - IMO - 40k is much more like checkers than chess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Chess is real easy:

"#1 - build a strong list that can handle most if not all expected threats "
White, but a better player can win with black

"#2 - know all the rules for your own units and most if not all of your potential opponents. "
Horsie can jump *Over* their small thingys!

"#3 - get lucky - nothing wins a game easier than getting first turn and blowing up half your opponents army. Hope your opponent has bad luck and doesn't make all his 4+ and 5+ invun saves. "
Gotta get lucky and be given white!

"#4 - shoot weapons in the right order to ensure all your guns shoot at the most appropriate target (this is the first actual part of 40k skill that requires you to actually use your brain) though a quick check list can make this a no brainier easy (What units in my army have range to only 1 target - shoot those first and so on and so on until you've shot everything) "
Gotta move the pawns in front before you move them power pieces. Except for horsie!

"#5- deploy your army in the most beneficial way ( this is a real skill - mostly it involves placing your units to maximize cover saves while still being in an effective position to make change on the table. "
Move your pieces in the most beneficial way - mostly involves placing your pieces to maximize your chances to take their pieces off the board!

"#6 - knowing when you can table and opponent and when you have to play for objectives (this comes down to knowing if you are outmatched or not - basically this is the same as #2) Prioritize when to fight and when to cap (not that hard - about 95% you are better off killing). "
Knowing when to win and when to play for the draw.

It's that easy. Do those 6 things, and you're a grand master!

Everything is easy when you don't know what you're talking about!

Also, horsie needs a buff! Why can't it move *4* squares! Rooks get to move *8*! I'ts mathematically the worst unit in the game!

How can you compare 40k to chess? Chess is more like a puzzle than a war game. It's incredibly in depth - requiring incredible foresight. In fact - it is so in depth a human will never beat a super AI at it. A super AI wouldn't beat me more than 50% of the time if I just follow that list in the most basic way I described it above. The game is dice. Understand that - and you become a master at 40k.

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

And orks are obviously so much more interesting. Or tyranids. Lol.

Cherrypicking best units from codexes is way more boring. Those tournament lists don't soup because it's more interesting but because it gives them MOA POWAAAH!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

So that's *expected* 1152 shots of poison to kill that many 3+ 2W.

That's 200 shots per turn.
Assuming ALWAYS rapid fire range.

6 units of Kabalites with blaster put out 48 shots per turn.
6 venoms with splinter cannons put out 72 shots per turn.

And we're essentially half way there. Assuming you're running 2 Archons (cheapest HQ available and staying Kabal) that's a minimum of 920 points. To get you *half* way there, and assuming that NONE of these models die over the course of a 6 turn game. Oh yeah and always rapid fire. Every turn. OH right, one final thing. None of the 3+ guys were ever in cover. EVER.

So yeah, i call BS

You call BS, I call BS on you calling BS. I know what I saw happening to my poor orks getting that 320+ models getting vaporized by poison that I could literally do zero to stop. The amount of poison shots rerolling hits or wounding on 2+ is just sick. Those 320+ models never stood a chance. Wipeout was foregone conclusion and only thing it didn't happen is that I threw in towel halfway his turn 4. What was left would be wiped out by next turn short of super icy cold dice.

This despite icy cold dice on first turn leaving rather mild damage barring destruction of 3 KMK's.

Deathwatch wounds on 2s with their poison, that's true. But that's entirely different math for a different faction, and they are super elite and expensive, so they need to pump out the damage before they're wiped from the table.

Dark Eldar wound on 4s though. If someone is wounding you on 2s with their splinter weapons... that is cheating.

Its a lot easier to say something is easy (even if it is) than actually manage to do it. Keeping everything in mind over the course of 5 games is what separates the good players from the rest.

If we ever reached the stage of "professional 40k players" then the shallowness of the game might become apparent - although we have professional sports where people screw up every day.Right now this is an amateur hobby. The number of people taking it vaguely seriously, even at tournaments, is very low.

Well - that is kinda of part of knowing the rules of the game. Knowing what units can do - what they will do is basically automatic. Good advice though. However - IMO - 40k is much more like checkers than chess.

No, its not like knowing the rules.
The top players can read the game. Their intuition to make the right decisions is something one hardly can learn.

As someone who goes to tournaments, I can tell you that it's better off not being played at the eSports level.

Video game eSports are much easier to police and patrol, because the input is restricted, and the math and results are handled by a computer.

40k is a game that depends on good faith. It is a prerequisite to have a good game. It is *incredibly easy* to lie to your opponent, fudge results, etc. If you've gone to a tournament at some point in your gaming lifetime, you've probably lost a game. After losing that game, you probably went and looked up your opponent's rules, and found they had made an egregious error. For example, casting Guide on a squad of Reapers in a Bastion. In general I find that people make mostly honest mistakes, but then you get guys like Team Happy who are pushing the envelope wherever they can, in an effort to screw you over. To make this game truly viable as an eSport, they would need officials at the game tables, monitoring to make sure rules were followed.

In general the game is more enjoyable if you think of it as playing with someone, rather than against them. Win or lose, tournaments are fun because you meet new people. When I started 40k, it was with 1 other guy. Now, i have about 12 good friends i've made playing the game. You might think there aren't like minded people at tournaments, there are, you just need to separate your ego from the results and go to have a good time. It's actually a healthy environment when everyone is trying to win, but personally disconnected from the outcome.

Lemondish wrote:

ccs wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

What's his list?

Does it matter? It's a team tournament. Lots of crazy lists there.

It was an Aeldari Soup list and Nick was the overall points leader, just ahead of one of his teammates.... The rest of the team was middle to bottom of the pack.
You can look his list up yourself, there are maybe a dozen places with the tourney lists.

Lemondish wrote:

ccs wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

What's his list?

Does it matter? It's a team tournament. Lots of crazy lists there.

Well, yeah. I'm curious to see what this uber list is that others can't stand against, retro-actively figure out how to crack, etc. It's must be a thing a wonder, right? So if you'd just point me in the right direction...

ccs wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

ccs wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

Weird thing to say given that some top players like Nick Nanavati run blogs that give advice on list building and turn-by-turn play. The best players in this community aren't exactly a secret cabal hording all the information and tactics.

Let me know when he posts on how to beat his ATC list.

What's his list?

Does it matter? It's a team tournament. Lots of crazy lists there.

Well, yeah. I'm curious to see what this uber list is that others can't stand against, retro-actively figure out how to crack, etc. It's must be a thing a wonder, right? So if you'd just point me in the right direction...

It's more complicated than that as because its a team event you have hammer lists, balanced and anvil lists. Hammer lists pick a target enemy list and try to put up big scores, Anvil lists are designed to loose by as little points as possible. Balanced lists can be either depending upon the match up.
Also balanced means something diffrent to balanced in a conventional individual tournament.