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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK


Strange question I know, but I do have my reasonings for it lol.

But basically, out of all of the possible Imperial soups (and I know there's a lot of those), what options are there for a 'Daemon Prince' equivalent.

Meaning a model (preferably a character, but doesn't need to be), with similar hardiness and close-range deadliness.

Celestine seems like a choice, and might well be the only option available, but I was just curious what other out-of-the-box options people might come up with out of all the other factions. I did think AdMech might have something (a robotic monster seems very admechy) but I don't think they do.

Perhaps there are some character builds + relics which might fit the bill?

Appreciate any thoughts
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





well there's Gulliman. in terms of hard hitting a space marine "smash captain" comes to mind, and of course a custodes..

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Horrific Hive Tyrant





On the tabletop it's Custodes Shield Captain On Dawneagle Jetbike. Easy one!

In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/29 21:19:10


 
   
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 Stux wrote:
In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.


Living Saint is a title, the others don't do what Celestine can do. Not by a long shot.

   
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Smash captain
Dawneagle Custodes Lord
Celestine

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I always use the moniker "The Imperial Daemon Prince" to describe whatever absurd broken Captain develops from the most relevant Space Marine codex out to my fellow Chaos Marines players.

Right now, a custodes captain is the new "Loyalist daemon prince" for speed, toughness, and strength. I'd play Loyalist if I didn't hate them so. DTTFE!
   
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





 Eldarain wrote:
Smash captain
Dawneagle Custodes Lord
Celestine

Exactly this.

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike is the closest thing. Feels like a literal monster on the tabletop. So much fun to play.

Celestine is close but weaker. Her thing is the ability to die then deep strike in the most inconvenient place possible and cause issues all over again.

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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Primarchs are equal matches for traitor Primarchs and named greater daemons, nothing less.

I agree with Celestine being a 'daemon prince' of the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/30 00:12:58


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Grandmaster Draigo of the Grey Knights is basically a daemon prince at this point. The Legion of the Damned are also daemons, then there’s stuff like Inquisitorial Daemonhosts. All the Primarchs were made using warp-based shenanigans so their level of daemon-ness is kinda up in the air.
   
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The Sanguinor is also basically an Imperial Daemon Prince
   
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A Protoss colony world

Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf is similar, but can't fly. Badass model though!

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Smashcaptain with JP is basically the imperial DP equivalent.
   
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Agree with Celestine and Brother Captain Smashfether.

Curve ball - I say Mephiston (something definitely not right with him and other BAs see him as an abomination - as stated in the Lemartes book (awful book by the way)).

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:
 Stux wrote:
In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.


Living Saint is a title, the others don't do what Celestine can do. Not by a long shot.


Hmm, I'm no sure. Yes, there were people granted the title based on legend, but I'm not convinced Celestine is totally unique in Imperium history either.
   
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Dreadnought characters too

Sableclaw
   
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Germany

A smash captain is not even close to a daemon prince. A BA librarian dread with wings of sanguinius or mephiston, also with wings, is close.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/30 08:43:00


 
   
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The reason why I started Death Guard over a loyalist chapter is because the loyalists are lacking bad-ass face-smashing close combat monster.

As an ork player, I need my warboss characters

I guess Mephiston or some of the SW characters come close, but those are few. Most Space Marine characters more about leading their fellow brethren than kicking teeth in.

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Niiru wrote:
Meaning a model (preferably a character, but doesn't need to be), with similar hardiness and close-range deadliness.
Shield captains on bikes are Tzeentch Daemon princes that have traded psychic powers for a hurricane bolter and 2+ armour save, with both costing roughly the same.

Celestine trades outright toughness and punch for some decent distraction-carnifex shenanigans.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
A smash captain is not even close to a daemon prince. A BA librarian dread with wings of sanguinius or mephiston, also with wings, is close.


Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)

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 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)


Neither can a smash captain.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.
   
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A.T. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.


Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/01 17:08:57


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.


Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.

Hes talking about the pregame stratagem that gives you +1 attack.

It's true the first volley of attacks likely wont kill a knight. It will braket them though for sure. So hitting back it's unlikely you will kill a smash captain before he attacks again. If you put him down to 1-6 wounds. He returns attacks on 5's. That wont average a kill to a smash captain ether...or he kills him and he fights when he dies. Smash captains beat a knight without effort really.

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There's also the +1 attack warlord trait in the BRB he may have been referring to.
   
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Big Mechanicum critters (Artalax, Domitar, Archimandrite...) and Dreadnaughts are similar in size and role, if not usually in tabletop capability.

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 p5freak wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.


Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.


The only way I know of for a Knight to have a 4++ in melee is to take Sanctuary and then use Rotate Ion Shields. Sanctuary is almost NEVER taken, however, as most Knights take Cawl's Wrath or one of the other weapon relics. Even defensive Knights usually take the Armour of the Sainted Ion (2+ save) rather than Sanctuary and you can't take both. So yeah, there's edge cases where you'll fight a Knight with a 4++ in melee (a Lancer with Rotate could do it too but Lancer's also aren't super common).

A true Captain Slamguinus is a Jump Pack Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, then has the stratagem Death Visions of Sanguinus, which gives +1 Attack. When Slammy completes a charge, Red Rampage is also played, which grants 1D3 more attacks (so average 2). They take the Angel Wing relic, but also take the Warlord Trait for +1 damage on a selected weapon (so the Thunder Hammer still goes to 4 damage). If a Psyker is taken as part of the battalion, Slammy gets an additional attack.

All together, Slammy is swinging 7-9 times, hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's at S8 AP-3 4 Damage and having +1 to Wound. In one round of combat, Slammy should average 11.06 wounds against an Imperial Knight with the Armour of the Sainted Ion and, in the rare event one is found, 8.30 wounds to a Knight with a 4++ in melee. Since Slammy fights twice thanks to another strat, his average should be 22.12 wounds and 16.6 wounds, respectively. This is assuming he gets the average of 8 attacks per round. If he gets the max of 9, those become 24.88 and 18.66. So he can one-shot a 2+ Knight before we delve into Blood Chalice or Command Re-Rolls. He can hurt a 4++ Knight very badly as well.

Now, most Captain Slamguinus's don't get the warlord trait so they actually do 3 damage instead of 4 (the trait went to Grand Strategist). With the CP nerf, you might start seeing it again so I'll leave these numbers here.
   
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Xenomancers wrote:
It's true the first volley of attacks likely wont kill a knight. It will braket them though for sure. So hitting back it's unlikely you will kill a smash captain before he attacks again. If you put him down to 1-6 wounds. He returns attacks on 5's. That wont average a kill to a smash captain ether...or he kills him and he fights when he dies. Smash captains beat a knight without effort really.


House hawkshroud or the ignore damage stratagem for that. Knights can also get FNP on 6+. With a stratagem 5+ i believe.

Arson Fire wrote:There's also the +1 attack warlord trait in the BRB he may have been referring to.


Oh yes, i completely forgot about that one

Audustum wrote:
The only way I know of for a Knight to have a 4++ in melee is to take Sanctuary and then use Rotate Ion Shields. Sanctuary is almost NEVER taken, however, as most Knights take Cawl's Wrath or one of the other weapon relics. Even defensive Knights usually take the Armour of the Sainted Ion (2+ save) rather than Sanctuary and you can't take both. So yeah, there's edge cases where you'll fight a Knight with a 4++ in melee (a Lancer with Rotate could do it too but Lancer's also aren't super common).


I always pick Armour of the Sainted Ion and ion bulwark for my gallant. Sometimes house terryn to get him into melee turn 1, or hawkshroud for better resiliency and psychic defense against tsons with smite spam.

Audustum wrote:
All together, Slammy is swinging 7-9 times, hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's at S8 AP-3 4 Damage and having +1 to Wound. In one round of combat, Slammy should average 11.06 wounds against an Imperial Knight with the Armour of the Sainted Ion and, in the rare event one is found, 8.30 wounds to a Knight with a 4++ in melee. Since Slammy fights twice thanks to another strat, his average should be 22.12 wounds and 16.6 wounds, respectively. This is assuming he gets the average of 8 attacks per round. If he gets the max of 9, those become 24.88 and 18.66. So he can one-shot a 2+ Knight before we delve into Blood Chalice or Command Re-Rolls. He can hurt a 4++ Knight very badly as well.


House hawkshroud or the ignore damage stratagem for that. Knights can also get FNP on 6+. With a stratagem 5+ i believe. There are ways for knights to counter captn slammy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 05:51:04


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)


Neither can a smash captain.


Actually pretty much can. Death company bonus, d3 extra attacks, fight again...Smash captan pretty much CAN one shot knight without even being that unlikely as long as knight isn't one with 5++ in h2h relic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 05:59:10


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 p5freak wrote:
Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.
The +1 attack trait is on page 186 of the main rulebook.

The mathhammer just covered the bare bones smash captain and did not include command rerolls for either captain or knight, knight relics and stratagems, forgeworld knights, psychic powers, or support characters for either side.
   
 
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