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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 21:09:41
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Strange question I know, but I do have my reasonings for it lol.
But basically, out of all of the possible Imperial soups (and I know there's a lot of those), what options are there for a 'Daemon Prince' equivalent.
Meaning a model (preferably a character, but doesn't need to be), with similar hardiness and close-range deadliness.
Celestine seems like a choice, and might well be the only option available, but I was just curious what other out-of-the-box options people might come up with out of all the other factions. I did think AdMech might have something (a robotic monster seems very admechy) but I don't think they do.
Perhaps there are some character builds + relics which might fit the bill?
Appreciate any thoughts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 21:14:09
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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well there's Gulliman. in terms of hard hitting a space marine "smash captain" comes to mind, and of course a custodes..
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 21:18:56
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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On the tabletop it's Custodes Shield Captain On Dawneagle Jetbike. Easy one!
In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/29 21:19:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 22:10:18
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Repentia Mistress
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Prima4ch on a bike or jump pack. Give it time...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 23:01:00
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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Stux wrote:In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.
Living Saint is a title, the others don't do what Celestine can do. Not by a long shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 23:28:02
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Smash captain
Dawneagle Custodes Lord
Celestine
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 23:28:32
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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I always use the moniker "The Imperial Daemon Prince" to describe whatever absurd broken Captain develops from the most relevant Space Marine codex out to my fellow Chaos Marines players.
Right now, a custodes captain is the new "Loyalist daemon prince" for speed, toughness, and strength. I'd play Loyalist if I didn't hate them so. DTTFE!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/29 23:50:19
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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Exactly this.
Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike is the closest thing. Feels like a literal monster on the tabletop. So much fun to play.
Celestine is close but weaker. Her thing is the ability to die then deep strike in the most inconvenient place possible and cause issues all over again.
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TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 00:12:42
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Primarchs are equal matches for traitor Primarchs and named greater daemons, nothing less.
I agree with Celestine being a 'daemon prince' of the Imperium.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/30 00:12:58
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 00:22:33
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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Grandmaster Draigo of the Grey Knights is basically a daemon prince at this point. The Legion of the Damned are also daemons, then there’s stuff like Inquisitorial Daemonhosts. All the Primarchs were made using warp-based shenanigans so their level of daemon-ness is kinda up in the air.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 02:44:26
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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The Sanguinor is also basically an Imperial Daemon Prince
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 02:45:54
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf is similar, but can't fly. Badass model though!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 03:13:23
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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Smashcaptain with JP is basically the imperial DP equivalent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 06:21:08
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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Agree with Celestine and Brother Captain Smashfether.
Curve ball - I say Mephiston (something definitely not right with him and other BAs see him as an abomination - as stated in the Lemartes book (awful book by the way)).
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Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 06:21:35
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Captain Joystick wrote: Stux wrote:In the lore, yeah living saints such as Celestine.
Living Saint is a title, the others don't do what Celestine can do. Not by a long shot.
Hmm, I'm no sure. Yes, there were people granted the title based on legend, but I'm not convinced Celestine is totally unique in Imperium history either.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 07:09:30
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Dakka Veteran
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Dreadnought characters too
Sableclaw
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 08:41:17
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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A smash captain is not even close to a daemon prince. A BA librarian dread with wings of sanguinius or mephiston, also with wings, is close.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/30 08:43:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 09:14:31
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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The reason why I started Death Guard over a loyalist chapter is because the loyalists are lacking bad-ass face-smashing close combat monster.
As an ork player, I need my warboss characters
I guess Mephiston or some of the SW characters come close, but those are few. Most Space Marine characters more about leading their fellow brethren than kicking teeth in.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/30 09:37:51
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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Niiru wrote:Meaning a model (preferably a character, but doesn't need to be), with similar hardiness and close-range deadliness.
Shield captains on bikes are Tzeentch Daemon princes that have traded psychic powers for a hurricane bolter and 2+ armour save, with both costing roughly the same.
Celestine trades outright toughness and punch for some decent distraction-carnifex shenanigans.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 02:08:05
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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p5freak wrote:A smash captain is not even close to a daemon prince. A BA librarian dread with wings of sanguinius or mephiston, also with wings, is close.
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 05:03:17
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 08:15:25
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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p5freak wrote: JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 17:06:15
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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A.T. wrote: p5freak wrote: JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.
Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/01 17:08:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 18:50:40
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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p5freak wrote:A.T. wrote: p5freak wrote: JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.
Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.
Hes talking about the pregame stratagem that gives you +1 attack.
It's true the first volley of attacks likely wont kill a knight. It will braket them though for sure. So hitting back it's unlikely you will kill a smash captain before he attacks again. If you put him down to 1-6 wounds. He returns attacks on 5's. That wont average a kill to a smash captain ether...or he kills him and he fights when he dies. Smash captains beat a knight without effort really.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 19:00:46
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There's also the +1 attack warlord trait in the BRB he may have been referring to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 19:04:30
Subject: Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Big Mechanicum critters (Artalax, Domitar, Archimandrite...) and Dreadnaughts are similar in size and role, if not usually in tabletop capability.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/01 19:33:53
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Damsel of the Lady
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p5freak wrote:A.T. wrote: p5freak wrote: JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Quick and dirty mathhammer - captain with the relic hammer and +1 attack trait averages 26 wounds to a knight. With a regular hammer and +1 damage trait they average 24 wounds.
Does not include command reroll, chainsword, ,psychic powers, blood chalice, etc.
Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.
The only way I know of for a Knight to have a 4++ in melee is to take Sanctuary and then use Rotate Ion Shields. Sanctuary is almost NEVER taken, however, as most Knights take Cawl's Wrath or one of the other weapon relics. Even defensive Knights usually take the Armour of the Sainted Ion (2+ save) rather than Sanctuary and you can't take both. So yeah, there's edge cases where you'll fight a Knight with a 4++ in melee (a Lancer with Rotate could do it too but Lancer's also aren't super common).
A true Captain Slamguinus is a Jump Pack Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, then has the stratagem Death Visions of Sanguinus, which gives +1 Attack. When Slammy completes a charge, Red Rampage is also played, which grants 1D3 more attacks (so average 2). They take the Angel Wing relic, but also take the Warlord Trait for +1 damage on a selected weapon (so the Thunder Hammer still goes to 4 damage). If a Psyker is taken as part of the battalion, Slammy gets an additional attack.
All together, Slammy is swinging 7-9 times, hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's at S8 AP-3 4 Damage and having +1 to Wound. In one round of combat, Slammy should average 11.06 wounds against an Imperial Knight with the Armour of the Sainted Ion and, in the rare event one is found, 8.30 wounds to a Knight with a 4++ in melee. Since Slammy fights twice thanks to another strat, his average should be 22.12 wounds and 16.6 wounds, respectively. This is assuming he gets the average of 8 attacks per round. If he gets the max of 9, those become 24.88 and 18.66. So he can one-shot a 2+ Knight before we delve into Blood Chalice or Command Re-Rolls. He can hurt a 4++ Knight very badly as well.
Now, most Captain Slamguinus's don't get the warlord trait so they actually do 3 damage instead of 4 (the trait went to Grand Strategist). With the CP nerf, you might start seeing it again so I'll leave these numbers here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/02 05:47:43
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Xenomancers wrote:
It's true the first volley of attacks likely wont kill a knight. It will braket them though for sure. So hitting back it's unlikely you will kill a smash captain before he attacks again. If you put him down to 1-6 wounds. He returns attacks on 5's. That wont average a kill to a smash captain ether...or he kills him and he fights when he dies. Smash captains beat a knight without effort really.
House hawkshroud or the ignore damage stratagem for that. Knights can also get FNP on 6+. With a stratagem 5+ i believe.
Arson Fire wrote:There's also the +1 attack warlord trait in the BRB he may have been referring to.
Oh yes, i completely forgot about that one
Audustum wrote:
The only way I know of for a Knight to have a 4++ in melee is to take Sanctuary and then use Rotate Ion Shields. Sanctuary is almost NEVER taken, however, as most Knights take Cawl's Wrath or one of the other weapon relics. Even defensive Knights usually take the Armour of the Sainted Ion (2+ save) rather than Sanctuary and you can't take both. So yeah, there's edge cases where you'll fight a Knight with a 4++ in melee (a Lancer with Rotate could do it too but Lancer's also aren't super common).
I always pick Armour of the Sainted Ion and ion bulwark for my gallant. Sometimes house terryn to get him into melee turn 1, or hawkshroud for better resiliency and psychic defense against tsons with smite spam.
Audustum wrote:
All together, Slammy is swinging 7-9 times, hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's at S8 AP-3 4 Damage and having +1 to Wound. In one round of combat, Slammy should average 11.06 wounds against an Imperial Knight with the Armour of the Sainted Ion and, in the rare event one is found, 8.30 wounds to a Knight with a 4++ in melee. Since Slammy fights twice thanks to another strat, his average should be 22.12 wounds and 16.6 wounds, respectively. This is assuming he gets the average of 8 attacks per round. If he gets the max of 9, those become 24.88 and 18.66. So he can one-shot a 2+ Knight before we delve into Blood Chalice or Command Re-Rolls. He can hurt a 4++ Knight very badly as well.
House hawkshroud or the ignore damage stratagem for that. Knights can also get FNP on 6+. With a stratagem 5+ i believe. There are ways for knights to counter captn slammy.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 05:51:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/02 05:58:09
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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p5freak wrote: JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. a Daemon Prince can't one-shot a knight consistently. (Not even a Skullreaver Prince-they need above average rolls to do it.)
Neither can a smash captain.
Actually pretty much can. Death company bonus, d3 extra attacks, fight again...Smash captan pretty much CAN one shot knight without even being that unlikely as long as knight isn't one with 5++ in h2h relic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 05:59:10
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/10/02 07:31:07
Subject: Re:Imperial equivalent to a Daemon Prince?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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p5freak wrote:Knights can get a 2+ sv, or a 4+ inv. Both work in melee. Did you include that in your mathhammer calculations ? I dont think so. And btw, there is no +1 attack trait.
The +1 attack trait is on page 186 of the main rulebook.
The mathhammer just covered the bare bones smash captain and did not include command rerolls for either captain or knight, knight relics and stratagems, forgeworld knights, psychic powers, or support characters for either side.
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