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I think my favourite “secret” about Star Wars is that, ultimately?

The Separatists were the ones who won.

Post-Empire, all members of the New Republic were so entirely voluntarily. And so those who originally sought to breakaway via the CIS did so - and both enjoyed relative peace as a result, so far as we’ve seen.

Geifer wrote:This is one of those times where it's fun to remind ourselves that the "good guys" in the original trilogy are a cultist, a smuggler, a politician and a sore loser. That's usually the bad guy cast in other movies.

Gert wrote:Alternatively, they're an elderly knight, a rogue, a princess, and a farmboy with dreams. So the good guy cast in other movies.

Everything is all about perspective.

A well-written story of someone suffering under the Republic and choosing both the Empire and then later the Imperial Remanent/First Order would be kind of awesome.

Well-written being the tough part.

The fanatics screaming "Long Live the Empire" as they do suicidal things are not it.

Yeah, there's potential there for an interesting character. But to be fair, there's a ton of reasons why the Imperial Remnant and First Order fanatics are front and center. Between the initial civil unrest and the increasing number of mining disasters during the Empire's rule and afterwards, it becomes increasingly hard for moderates to hold significant roles. And I suspect most people interested in Star Wars don't particularly care to watch or read about the exciting daily challenges of Janitor Joe.

It would definitely take great care to toe the line between going along with a lot of dodgy stuff and still making the character sympathetic.

 Geifer wrote:
Sure. To a degree. At least as far back as the prequel trilogy we got to see what the leadership of the Alliance to Restore the Plutocracy Formally Known as the Galactic Republic means to bring back, and following material only fleshed out that the political leadership is basically pining for the good old days. They just want the thing they lost back, preferably the way it was. In other words, they want to bring the thing that already failed once back and not even make the necessary changes to solve the problems of a galaxy.that has changed dramatically in the meantime.

The Republic failed because Palpatine accelerated its demise to place himself in a position of power. Take him out of the situation, and the crisis with Valorum being viewed as in the pockets of the banks and bureaucrats never happens. The problem with The Phantom Menace is that it looks at politics from the vaguest angle and doesn't give you the time to understand that "Oh, wait, this guy who's saying everyone is corrupt but me" might not have the best of intentions.
And if you rightly remember at the start of A New Hope, the Emperor gets rid of the last vestiges of any representation the people of the galaxy had in the political sphere. As this period is expanded upon with the likes of Andor, Rebels, and other media we know the Emperor has been slowly eroding the power of the Senate so that local Imperial officials can take control of more and more offices and duties.
Democracy is messy but it's always superior to fascism.

So yeah, maybe the charming rogue tips well, but he's still a smuggler and murderer. Great hire if you want to do some smuggling and murdering. Wouldn't be my first choice for statesman, though.

Good thing Han never became a Senator and was a soldier instead who then left to go be a smuggler again when the Rebellion became the New Republic.

Also you got the cast wrong by bringing the compulsive liar into it. You should have your arm ripped out for that insult.

I don't know what you mean?

Wot Gert said.

And on the dissolution of the Senate? Grand Moff Tarkin said it himself “Fear. Fear of this battlestation will keep the local systems in line”.

Hence the decision to obliterate Alderaan, as a demonstration not just of the station’s potential, but now willing to use it The Empire was.

Had Leia and Obi-Wan’s mission failed? That probably would’ve been it. No technical readout of the Death Star, and you’ve basically no chance of taking it out. It’s too big, too powerful, and even if you could attrition it? It’s spending that time wrecking entire planets.

But…it didn’t. And post-Alderaan, Palpatine’s mask was off for all and sundry to see. The appealing lie of “bUt ItS fOr SeCuRiTy” fell away, and the overall Rebellion spread.

This was further compounded by so much Clone Wars era war materiel lying around. Not necessarily Capital Ships, crewing one can be prohibitive. But those Capital scale class weapons? Those you can work work.

With the Death Star and the Imperial Navy? Not so much of a problem on account of “you, your paltry band and your stupid home worlds all go squish now”.

Sans Death Star, and in the face of the Alliance’s favoured hit and run tactics? A much more significant issue.

We see this in Rogue One, where (granted not unsupported) a squadron of clapped out Y-Wings and a Hammerhead Corvette (also antiquated as a battleship) take out not one, but two Imperial Star Destroyers.

And those tactics could be repeated outside of a battle.

Send in an initial A-Wing or other sensor laden craft to scope out what’s around. Use that info to inform your risk/reward appetite, factoring in that you have to assume reinforcements will arrive sooner or later. If you think you can get away with it? Jump in, mess some stuff up, and get back out again.

And that worked well enough, often enough? That even the Imperial Navy began to become somewhat stretched.

In the face of all three eras (Clone Wars, Early-Mid Empire, Galactic Civil War), Mon Mothma’s drive to disarm does make sense. The Galaxy as a whole was exhausted from a couple of generations of war. You can’t just declare yourself the new government, take over all the former government’s weapons of intimidation, and still convince everyone you’re any different to the old boss.

Which in turn, at least to me and I’ll my best to convince you, Palpatine’s other plan (First and Final Orders) do make sense.

Accept your initial defeat, slink off into the shadows. Let everyone rest easy, begin to disarm, whilst you’re using the resources you’d squirreled away over your 20 or so years of Absolute Power to massively rearm - a Death Star on every doorstep, and too few organised forces to properly stop you once its underway.

That both plans had crucial fulcrums I don’t agree as signs of bad plans. Not when you look at how much the goodies had to do to tip it their way (get Death Star plans, analyse them, find the weakness, and exploit it, all in a very limited timeframe. Final Order? Find out where you are to begin with*, find there way there, discover just what you’ve got in store**, and either come with, or go get, enough ships to stop your fleet before it can depart and spread out***

Was it presented well in the film? No. Not really. But I’ve thought about it for a while, and I’m happy it does make sense overall.

*this is why you don’t start blowing your own trumpet until your ready
**no, seriously Sheev. Shut yer puss
***I bloody told you to keep shtum, see? You’ve ruined it now you moustache twirling egomaniacal loony.

The Death Star is the ultimate Nuclear Weapon of the Starwars setting. Couple it to a ruler willing to use it without reservation and to the fact that its a unique technology that requires phenomenal investment most other factions can't achieve and you've got yourself an ultimate weapon of fear.


Deploy a few of them; fire at a few key targets and you've got a system that could prevent uprisings and shatter the Rebellion without having to fight hit-and-run tactics.

In the end the Rebellion had to step up a gear to win; they had to go to large fleet engagements to actually win against the Imperium; if the Deathstar had not been taken down then many allies and potential allies for the rebel forces would have vanished. It's better to live under Imperial Rule than be obliterated; and even if the government of worlds might join the Alliance; any hint to their population could have an uprising.


The idea of the Death Star program makes sense. By simply existing it squashes a lot of potential rebellion and basically pushes it into the fringes of extremist terrorist groups. Basically things that Stormtroopers can deal with at the local level.


Basically if the program had worked and not been taken out the only real way to rise up would have been from within the Imperial military itself.

Because local system rulers wouldn't want to be targeted and the Emperor would likely have gone down a pathway similar to Dune - pit them against each other so that they are so focused on internal politics and gains that they don't see the big picture of uniting together against the Emperor.

That's something the Emperor was already doing as well.

Imperial officers would rat each other out or put others in the position to take the fall for things.
It's why so many competent officers ended up getting terrible postings or front-line duty and then dying to Rebels.
Nobody who was actually good at their job ever lasted long in the Empire because politics always came into play or they realised (rightfully so) that the Empire was actually the bad guys once they got into the real nitty gritty of it all.

It’s also part of the New Republic’s Folly that it was assumed “true believers” were relatively few in number, with everyone else Just Following Orders and victims of propaganda.

Not so much in the ranks of the now former Imperial Military, but among now returned Senators/new Senators.

We see this in Ahsoka, where we see a resistance to investigating Thrawn’s return. And in The Mandalorian, where resources to investigate Moff Gideon’s shenanigans are denied.

That not solely down to wishful thinking, Dewey eyed, woolly headed liberal thinking (though that inevitably played a part), but bad faith actors with the power and position to stymie such things.

Which leads to my favourite scene, where C-3PO comes in, confirming Senator Organa most definitely, 100%, did indeed give Hera Syndulla authority to act, and if you don’t like it, she’d be glad to have a wee word with you.

Honestly I think one of the downsides of the prequels is that we never really got enough time for the Empire to be the Empire long enough. It basically starts when Luke is born and that's a pitiful amount of time for the whole structure of the Empire - on a galactic scale - to really get going.

They should have done some "Anakin was already over 100 when it fathered Luke" kind of deal so that we could have had him fight in the Clone Wars and then have a long long span of time for the Empire to really get going; to have reached as far as Tatooine and had enough influence that someone like Luke would see the Empire as a good thing and a normal thing.

I do and don’t agree.

I do agree the prequels wasted a lot of time. The Phantom Menace basically boils down to “The Jedi believed the Sith extinct, boy were they wrong and now it’s causing all sorts of issues”, for instance. And yeah, I’d have liked some early Empire shenanigans to see.

But, we do have oodles and oodles of back-fill media to provide that. Clone Wars, Rebels, Andor and Rogue One are all really solid explorations of the two pre-OT eras. Not to mention a whole bunch of novels, which I’ve not personally read but have heard positive things about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I do and don’t agree.

I do agree the prequels wasted a lot of time. The Phantom Menace basically boils down to “The Jedi believed the Sith extinct, boy were they wrong and now it’s causing all sorts of issues”, for instance. And yeah, I’d have liked some early Empire shenanigans to see.

But, we do have oodles and oodles of back-fill media to provide that. Clone Wars, Rebels, Andor and Rogue One are all really solid explorations of the two pre-OT eras. Not to mention a whole bunch of novels, which I’ve not personally read but have heard positive things about.

It's not so much that we can't make stories about it; its that by the time of Luke's story the Empire is clearly very well established and mature on a Galactic Scale. That's my main issue in timing. 20odd years isn't really that long when you spread things out over a whole Galaxy. Even with Hyperspeed, local training and all its a tiny amount of time. Even smaller when you consider that that time has to also include the Empire not just consolidating and taking over all of the Old Republic; but also expanding it considerably to include worlds like Tatooine.

Now granted the Empire doesn't have to invade to take over, but you do get that sense that there just wasn't enough time for it to really get into gear.


It's a timespan that I'd be totally happy with on a planetary scale - 20years would be more than enough in the real world for a major change in power and attitudes. But on a Galactic I feel like its not quite enough time to really settle enough qualms and problems; to truly iron out the aftershock of the Clone Wars and all to the point where the Rebellion is a handful of fighters (on a Galactic scale).


It's also not enough time to really forget the Jedi. Even though its established they are dwindling in the Prequels they are still clearly heard about enough that "Mind Tricks don't work on me, only Money" is something a random junkdealer on the farthest end of the universe on a world not even in the Republic, can quip about. Someone like Han would have grown up during the Republic or just at the very tail end of it; meanwhile most of the more mature characters in the setting will have grown up within the Republic. Jedi would be more than just tall tales and stories.

Again give the Empire 100 or 200 years of running and you've much more time and generations for things to establish and change.

It wasn’t a wholly new organisation though. At first, it was a rebranding of a now victorious civilisation, and controlled the banking industry completely.

So it already had a significant military industry going, and would’ve been able to spin the loyalty from the Clone Wars into, at least initially “let’s stop those wascally Separatists from ever being a bother again”.

And because Palpatine had puppeted both (something I’m not sure ever really came to light? I’m probably forgetting something), he’d made damned sure there was plenty Separatists atrocities to carry that sentiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Jedi being forgotten is perhaps overstated though. The only person we really see asking “wots a Jedi, precious” is Han.

Others certainly seem familiar, down to Bib Fortuna. And so Han is the outlier?

It also doesn't really take that long for an authoritarian state and the apparatus of control and surveillance to establish itself, especially when said state already has complete control and loyalty over the standing armed forces.

From Hitler leaving prison to the Enabling Act giving him complete control over the entire government was 9 years, for example. Within 6 years after that the German warmachine ramped up to the point it was able to rearm and conquer mainland western and eastern europe.

Palpatine already had a fully functional war economy at the point he seized complete control. He already had a fully mobilised, trained and tested army and navy. He had no organised opposition against military expansion as he had assassinated the leaders of the separatist forces etc. Starting from that point? Expansion of the Empire was very feasible within a short time, especially when internal security can be initially bolstered by private contract security as we initially see on Ferrix in Andor.

It's also really important to remember the power the Common Man has in this.

Palpatine ended the war which was started by the Jedi who went on an unsanctioned assassination mission against those who would become the leaders of the CIS.
He loves democracy, he loves the Republic, it just so happened that the crisis never ended then the Jedi tried to kill the most popular Supreme Chancellor in recent history.

The Senate was behind him and the masses of the galaxy were finally free from war.
It's what Bad Batch does so well IMO with the transition from the Republic to the Empire.
"Hey Citizen, come get your new Government ID and your new money from the new Government Bank which will keep your money safe. Hey, why don't you join the Stormtrooper Corps or the Imperial Navy to fight pirates and keep your worlds safe? It's you, the people, who make the Empire a safer place."
For a lot of people, the Empire was a good change until it wasn't. Such is the lure of fascism.

The Republic started becoming the Empire the moment Palpatine was elected. It's formal transition didn't happen until Luke was born, but the war had already done the bulk of the redecorating.

Granted, the original timeline had the Empire existing for about 10-20 more years before RotS tied it explicitly to the birth of the twins. I definitely think 30-40 years works better, but 20 years really is a longer time than people give it credit for. It's just hard to appreciate as kids when you don't have a concept of time and you've grown up on stories where 1000 years pass and society doesn't change a bit.

I've long maintained that the big mistake of the prequels is young Anakin and not starting the Clone Wars right there. The whole thing works better if you make Anakin closer to Luke's age as a hotshot podracer, but ultimately the decision to deploy the Clones to save Naboo starts the war.

That lets the second movie end with Dooku's death and the end of the war and a third movie where Anakin is torn between the glory of being a war hero who "saved" the galaxy and his loved ones increasingly suspicious behavior as Palpatine refuses to relinquish power. The worst thing about the prequels has always been how well the broad strokes work. The first one doesn't even really waste time; it just requires reestablishing Anakin, causing the second movie to be a pretty big waste of time.

I always had similar issues; Anakin should have been a teenager. It makes more sense of his relationship with Amedala and why he would be too old for training, as well as tying in better with Luke in the original trilogy.

I always thought that the 2nd prequel should have ended with the creation of the Empire, as it would reflect the tone from ESB. The third one could then show Vader actually hunting down the Jedi (as he is described doing) and end with the formation/first actions of the Alliance as a sense of hope (essentially what we eventually got as Rogue One).

 Jadenim wrote:
I always had similar issues; Anakin should have been a teenager. It makes more sense of his relationship with Amedala and why he would be too old for training, as well as tying in better with Luke in the original trilogy.

I mean, there was no particular reason that Anakin had to be too old for his training. The whole thing with his mother could have been left out entirely, with Anakin recruited as normal and his attachment issues just based on his relationship with Amidala.


Although I do also wonder how things would have played out differently throughout the series if Lucas had stuck with Anakin and Vader being two different people...

And you can drop the whole "chosen one prophecy" that comes out of nowhere and does nothing to improve the story and in fact detracts from it by removing the free will from Vader's redemption if prophecies are in fact real in Star Wars.

But are prophecies actually real? You can see the future through the Force, which I believe Yoda says is notoriously hard to interpret right. The will of the Force is a thing, too. But I'm not sure a prophecy has actually been used as a plot device and convincingly been proven true. I took that to be an extension of Jedi mysticism. If they already believe that the Force has a will (that favors the Jedi, of course), believing in prophecies as particularly stable and long lasting manifestations of that will isn't a stretch. My take on this has always been that the prophecy of the chosen one is just there to give Qui-Gon the conviction to go against doctrine and the express order of the Jedi council without any need to follow through and show if the prophecy plays out in the end. It's plausible as a personal belief of a character and did its job when it was needed or convenient to have.

I think the "Chosen One" angle is good.

You're some nobody slave on a backwater world when a magic space knight comes along and says he thinks you'll save the galaxy.
You think it's pretty cool but then you get out into the galaxy and things aren't great.
Pressure builds, you fall in love (which you aren't supposed to do) and make attachments (also not allowed) so the whole "Saving the galaxy" thing becomes very personal, very quickly which adds even more pressure.
The two most important people (who aren't your wife) are pulling you in different directions telling you that this thing needs to be done to "Save the galaxy".
No wonder Anakin snapped and murdered a bunch of people dude had serious trauma and no therapy.

Indeed, I don't think it came through as much as it should; but the Jedi Council basically put on his shoulders the "here you're going to solve all our problems". They also weren't too shy about telling him or revealing it from what I recall.

There's also the fact that he was separated from his home for far too long. Jedi training was basically monastic style. Which is likely a big part of why training had to start at such a young age. Basically Jedi had to replace your real family so starting super young allowed that to happen. Anakin was older; he had an established family and whilst he was a slave its clear that Watto was a generally decent owner and Anakins life was not extreme-horrible-bad.

So yeah homesickness; trauma; being thrust into multiple major conflicts that basically were nothing to do with him; insane pressure to save everyone etc... Oh and then his mother dies an horrific death whilst he's away. A death that was totally avoidable - indeed her life up to that point could have been changed dramatically for the better with a pitiful investment of resources from the Jedi Council - who didn't do it.

It's no wonder the Emperor could twist and turn him; he was about the only person in Anakin's life who was listening to him and reinforcing/supporting and praising him up.




Lets not forget whilst people fixate on Anakin killing the young Jedi, they were not the first children he killed. His attack on the Sandpeople also resulted in the death of their entire group, women and children included. I think one failing is that we don't see enough of the Clone Wars - we see basically the start and the end, but not the stress of war in the middle. We also see it almost entirely in a positive action sequence rather then the darkness of actual war. If we'd seen more "droids wiped out whole settlements of people you befriended last week" I think that might have helped reinforce the war-time trauma that Anakin was building up.

That last point is an interesting one. We have a lot of trouble in the real world with PTSD dehumanising people and that is an effective way to explain what’s happening to Anakin. He becomes so bitter and twisted by war that he literally cannot see right from wrong.

But you’d need films that feel more like Apocalypse Now than Star Wars, which is difficult to do on a family friendly rating!

Agreed - that said I think you could do it. The issue is you have to shift the focus. Right now in SW the battles are nearly always armies vs armies. Clone Wars even dehumanises because its clones VS robots.

What you honestly see very little of is armies vs civilians. We get occupation scenes after armies have done their battles; but we don't really see much of actual civilian war. In fact I think the only time we really see it is at the very start of the 7th film and even that is a touch more military vs rebels.


I think if we'd had some big tearjerker scenes of Anakin making friends with natives; defending them and then failing it might have helped. You don't even have to show the fight itself. After-effects just like when Luke came home to find his Uncle and Aunt killed can carry the message really well.

I think that side of war being shown more and more to him in a build up would have really helped show how he changed. How the death of his mother twisted him to do the horrific acts he'd seen done to others

 Gert wrote:
I think the "Chosen One" angle is good.

You're some nobody slave on a backwater world when a magic space knight comes along and says he thinks you'll save the galaxy.
You think it's pretty cool but then you get out into the galaxy and things aren't great.
Pressure builds, you fall in love (which you aren't supposed to do) and make attachments (also not allowed) so the whole "Saving the galaxy" thing becomes very personal, very quickly which adds even more pressure.
The two most important people (who aren't your wife) are pulling you in different directions telling you that this thing needs to be done to "Save the galaxy".
No wonder Anakin snapped and murdered a bunch of people dude had serious trauma and no therapy.

And I'd argue that what you laid out can be done entirely without a chosen one prophecy which saves you from awkward questions like "Who prophesised a chosen one in the first place?"

"You have an incredible gift, and can use that gift to help others" works absolutely fine for getting Anakin into the Jedi, and also directly ties into his actual personal character arc which the vague prophecy does not. Anakin doesn't fall because of the prophecy, he falls because he is trying to find a way to help someone he cares about and that is used to manipulate him. You don't even need to drop Anakin being a prodigy and given far too much pressure and responsibility because of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:
But are prophecies actually real? You can see the future through the Force, which I believe Yoda says is notoriously hard to interpret right. The will of the Force is a thing, too. But I'm not sure a prophecy has actually been used as a plot device and convincingly been proven true. I took that to be an extension of Jedi mysticism. If they already believe that the Force has a will (that favors the Jedi, of course), believing in prophecies as particularly stable and long lasting manifestations of that will isn't a stretch. My take on this has always been that the prophecy of the chosen one is just there to give Qui-Gon the conviction to go against doctrine and the express order of the Jedi council without any need to follow through and show if the prophecy plays out in the end. It's plausible as a personal belief of a character and did its job when it was needed or convenient to have.

I feel this just strengthens my point. Why would the Jedi treat a really vague prophecy, from who knows where and when, as something to believe when they know from first hand experience that attempting to interpret the future is incredibly hard? Why would you believe that one person would result in balancing the force, which is something that is created by and connects all living things in the galaxy?

And this is then shown throughout the rest of the films where everyone who tries to see into the future gets it wrong. Yoda thought Luke going to Cloud City would be disastrous but it actually worked out for the best as Luke learning about his father then was much better than if he had found out when facing the Emperor and Vader together. And then the Emperor believes that he is invincible due to what he has foreseen over Endor and we know how that works out for him.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

And this is then shown throughout the rest of the films where everyone who tries to see into the future gets it wrong. Yoda thought Luke going to Cloud City would be disastrous but it actually worked out for the best as Luke learning about his father then was much better than if he had found out when facing the Emperor and Vader together. And then the Emperor believes that he is invincible due to what he has foreseen over Endor and we know how that works out for him.

Maybe they have a lot of confirmation bias... or the experience gives a feeling of righteousness and chosen by God that leads to total certainty.

There's a lot of odd things in the prequels that just didn't work. It didn't help that the EU had built up a lot of ideas that didn't end up lining up with George's view of things. Everyone focuses on the prophecy, but the bigger dropped subplot there is the Jedi losing their powers.

A lot of it also comes from George having a different take on the Force than what a lot of the gamefication of Star Wars had developed. He never thought of it as a Light Side. Just the Balanced Force and its Dark Side that upsets its natural state. Granted, he also saw it as this body hopping evil microorganism, so its not like there weren't things that were bound to be a problem one way or another.

It’s the two sides of the coin.

Yoda was overly cautious - but that’s coming from his accrued wisdom over not trusting future visions, and knowing the specific danger to Luke, particularly given Luke is barely a neophyte Jedi at that point.

Palpatine was simply overconfident, and not entirely without reason. Consider the events that lead to Endor, and just how many went his way, or he was at least able to turn to his direct benefit.

Seems the sensible thing to do is let such visions inform your plan of action, but not entirely define it.

In other news, just saw Skeleton Crew is debuting on 2 December, so fairly certain it’s been slightly brought forward.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

And this is then shown throughout the rest of the films where everyone who tries to see into the future gets it wrong. Yoda thought Luke going to Cloud City would be disastrous but it actually worked out for the best as Luke learning about his father then was much better than if he had found out when facing the Emperor and Vader together. And then the Emperor believes that he is invincible due to what he has foreseen over Endor and we know how that works out for him.

Maybe they have a lot of confirmation bias... or the experience gives a feeling of righteousness and chosen by God that leads to total certainty.

Honestly, the Force is just a troll. It basically only gives people visions that lead to their ruin. It's almost malicious in that regard and one of the few things its really consistent about.

 LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, the Force is just a troll. It basically only gives people visions that lead to their ruin. It's almost malicious in that regard and one of the few things its really consistent about.

Well that can't be right.

*checks the sacred texts*

Oh dang

The trouble with the Jedi and the Sith is they try to make The Force their own.

Though the Mortis episodes of the Clone Wars are really, really odd (and for me don’t quite work) they do show it has some kind of consciousness, and is in itself kinda neutral. It’s not good, it’s not evil, it just is.

And it does seem when one or other extreme tried to claim dominance, The Force messes back.

Which could mean Anakin was intended to destroy both Sith and Jedi, letting The Force go back to simply being.