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Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk


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Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk

Intruducing a whole new troop type is an expensive way to fix a power imbalance when you can just change the rules of the existing units...

Only time will tell if this happens. If it does I imagine Craftworlds having a similar phasing out and to be replaced with Ynnari.

 insaniak wrote:
Intruducing a whole new troop type is an expensive way to fix a power imbalance when you can just change the rules of the existing units...

It's a great way to do it if you intend to also sell new models while simultaneously changing the army's design.

While it proves nothing definitively, there was perhaps a hint of GW's stance on this with today's Kill Team Commanders reveal.

Adeptus Astartes Commander options are ALL Primaris. Captain, Chaplain, Librarian, Lieutenant. Buy all Primaris.

(EDIT: That was a typo, should have been 'but'. Seems appropriate though so I'll leave it! )

 maeglin wrote:
Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

OK, so I haven't read most of this thread, but I believe you were right when you mentioned GW tried to copyright Space Marine and couldn't. That's why they aren't called Space Marines but Adeptus Astartes instead. That's a name they can copyright. As far as Primaris Marines, you can probably copyright that as well. But, I believe the actual copyright was created around Adeptus Astartes riather than Primaris.

SG

 Stux wrote:
While it proves nothing definitively, there was perhaps a hint of GW's stance on this with today's Kill Team Commanders reveal.

Adeptus Astartes Commander options are ALL Primaris. Captain, Chaplain, Librarian, Lieutenant. Buy all Primaris.

(EDIT: That was a typo, should have been 'but'. Seems appropriate though so I'll leave it! )

on the other hand, the death watch gets a primaris captain captain, librarian or a watch captain. it could be that they simply lack a quick and easy mono pose plastic HQ for all of those versions in a old marine type but yeaaah...

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While it proves nothing definitively, there was perhaps a hint of GW's stance on this with today's Kill Team Commanders reveal.

Adeptus Astartes Commander options are ALL Primaris. Captain, Chaplain, Librarian, Lieutenant. Buy all Primaris.

(EDIT: That was a typo, should have been 'but'. Seems appropriate though so I'll leave it! )

on the other hand, the death watch gets a primaris captain captain, librarian or a watch captain. it could be that they simply lack a quick and easy mono pose plastic HQ for all of those versions in a old marine type but yeaaah...

I agree. But my inference is based on them clearly not seeing it as a problem that they don't have suitable old scale marine characters, and being happy to forge ahead with just Primaris ones here!

When you think about it, it's pretty obvious why they introduced primaris the way they did. If they had just made them a direct update of existing models (i.e. this is how tactical marines look from now on) people would have been able to continue using their existing collections to represent them. If the goal is to get players to repurchase their entire collections, that just won't do. So they made them new better marines that operate (for now) alongside oldmarines.

Based on this, I expect the following going forward:

1. No new non-primaris releases (obvious).

2. Primaris releases will be carefully designed to minimize options that have oldmarine analogues, making it difficult/impossible to use oldmarine models as counts as primaris.

3. Rules support for oldmarines to continue, but scaled down over time as the corresponding kits are discontinued. Expect to see the options that have the closest primaris analogues to remain the longest - reasoning being that as long as there are rules for tac marines and dreadnoughts you won't be able to use them as proxies for intercessors and redemptors and still be WYSIWYG. In fact I'd expect the tactical squad to remain long after the actual box is discontinued, just to make sure the hordes of old plastic bolter marine models can never be used as intercessors (though I expect their rules to be crap so no one will want to actually use them).

It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.

And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.

Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.

This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

 GamerGuy wrote:
Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk

That would be GW's style of problem-solving. Instead of fixing the issue go out of your way to cover up the problem while finding a way to profit from it.

 Stux wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.

I'm fine with it, these new models look so much better. Just, I wish we could get some options. New guns, vehicles, bikes, etc.

Right now I feel like I'm bringing a tooth pick to a laser fight.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.

Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.

I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!

drbored wrote:
It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.

And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.

Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.

We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.

Ugh.

 Stux wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.

Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.

I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!

I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Stux wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.

Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.

I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!

I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.

See I'm gambling a little. I went a head and bought some primaris stuff with the goal of getting it commission painted piece by piece. My hope is that by 2019-2020 the army will be able to stand on its own without the midget marines and that my cost of buying the army will be spread out over a couple of years rather than all at once!

 Jaxler wrote:

 Stux wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.

Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.

I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.

Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.

I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.

Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.

I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!

I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.

I don't subscribe to the idea that they would intentionally make a unit bad. That said they do need Primaris to be 'good enough to buy'.

I understand the frustration for someone in your position, I really do. But I also understand why GW felt they needed to do this to make Marine releases meaningful and desirable (for many people anyway) instead just scraping the barrel with more and more ideas along the lines of Centurions.

 Togusa wrote:

drbored wrote:
It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.

And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.

Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.

We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.

Ugh.

Grognards like that give us grognards a bad name. I use exclusively oldmarines and I like it!! Plus, it's really easy to kill Primaris with oldmarines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

drbored wrote:
It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.

And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.

Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.

We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.

Ugh.

Grognards like that give us grognards a bad name. I use exclusively oldmarines and I like it!! Plus, it's really easy to kill Primaris with oldmarines.

We keep him around, sort of like how kids tolerate their Alzheimers riddled parents just before sending them off to the home. One in our group even calls him Bjorn (he hates marines, especially space wolves) so it's sort of a double joke!

 Togusa wrote:
See I'm gambling a little. I went a head and bought some primaris stuff with the goal of getting it commission painted piece by piece. My hope is that by 2019-2020 the army will be able to stand on its own without the midget marines and that my cost of buying the army will be spread out over a couple of years rather than all at once!

That's a pretty safe gamble.

Buying minimarines as this point however would be like investing to Bretonnians during the End Times, except that we know the outcome beforehand.

 Elbows wrote:

In five years time, you'll have 30-40 new marine Primaris influenced kits, and the remaining Space Marine plastic kits will be viewed as old, out of date, etc.

This is about the only part I don’t fully agree with. I don’t think we will see a 1:1 kit turnover with Primaris. I suspect we will see a streamlining of the available kits. I’m thinking something like:

HQ
- A couple HQ models (Greater and lesser commander of some sort)

ELITE
- Two elite units (Aggressors, ??? Probably melee-based)

TROOPS
- Dual troop unit via upgrade sprue (Intercessor/Veterans)

FAST ATTACK
- Bike (probably grav)
- Reivers (possibly a dual kit down the line, one focusing on melee, the other ranged)

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Repulsor & Repulsor variant (maybe a tracked vehicle)
- Predator replacement

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
- Rhino/Razorback meld transport (likely grav)

I’d personally be surprised if GW does any more flyer kits from here on out, so I wouldn’t expect Primaris replacements for the Stormtalon or Stormraven. And that’d be the basic line I’d expect, maybe an extra “cool” unit or two, but not much more.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

In five years time, you'll have 30-40 new marine Primaris influenced kits, and the remaining Space Marine plastic kits will be viewed as old, out of date, etc.

This is about the only part I don’t fully agree with. I don’t think we will see a 1:1 kit turnover with Primaris. I suspect we will see a streamlining of the available kits. I’m thinking something like:

HQ
- A couple HQ models (Greater and lesser commander of some sort)

ELITE
- Two elite units (Aggressors, ??? Probably melee-based)

TROOPS
- Dual troop unit via upgrade sprue (Intercessor/Veterans)

FAST ATTACK
- Bike (probably grav)
- Reivers (possibly a dual kit down the line, one focusing on melee, the other ranged)

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Repulsor & Repulsor variant (maybe a tracked vehicle)
- Predator replacement

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
- Rhino/Razorback meld transport (likely grav)

I’d personally be surprised if GW does any more flyer kits from here on out, so I wouldn’t expect Primaris replacements for the Stormtalon or Stormraven. And that’d be the basic line I’d expect, maybe an extra “cool” unit or two, but not much more.

Why do you think they won't make any more flyers?

 ServiceGames wrote:
OK, so I haven't read most of this thread, but I believe you were right when you mentioned GW tried to copyright Space Marine and couldn't. That's why they aren't called Space Marines but Adeptus Astartes instead. That's a name they can copyright. As far as Primaris Marines, you can probably copyright that as well. But, I believe the actual copyright was created around Adeptus Astartes riather than Primaris.

SG

They were called Adeptus Astartes long before the legal shenanigans arose.


And you can't 'copyright' a name. You're thinking of Trademarks. Copyright is a legal ownership that applies to artistic work. Trademarks are a claimed ownership of a name, phrase or symbol in a specific context.

Meh.

Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.

GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.

But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.

Tyel wrote:
Meh.

Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.

GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.

But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.

I tend to go along with this line of thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of "special" traditional marine kits comes down a few notches, but I just don't see the basic power armored guy going anywhere any time soon.

I think the fate of current index only options at the dawn of 9th edition will be a good indication of how worried you should be about vanishing rule support for older models.