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 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.

Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.

How was the Imperium supposed to resist?

Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.

Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?

Wow First World Problems.

What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?

I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers

GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.

Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.

It’s just like the edition change, or WFB changing into AoS, or anything else that changes. What can be gained by complaining or expressing displeasure as nauseum? Is it therapeutic in some way to repeatedly tell the Internet, “I don’t like this?”

Not suggesting everyone has to like everything, because that is extremely unrealistic. I just have never been able to see the point in dwelling on disappointment in a game of toy soldiers. For months, even years. Why not just focus on the aspects one enjoys?

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?

Wow First World Problems.

What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?

I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers

GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.

Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.

While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?

Wow First World Problems.

What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?

I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers

GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.

Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.

While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.

Soo what Marine models are needed presuming they won't go beyond the snowflake Chapters? We have loads of marines coming out all the time from FW.

What non Primaris models are beign called out for by Marine players?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.

Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.

How was the Imperium supposed to resist?

Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.

Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.

Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?

Wow First World Problems.

What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?

I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers

GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.

Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.

While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.

Soo what Marine models are needed presuming they won't go beyond the snowflake Chapters? We have loads of marines coming out all the time from FW.

What non Primaris models are beign called out for by Marine players?

Primaris need a transport and a lighter support tank if we're going to be honest (Grav Rhino and Predator would be neat after all). Most generic stuff fits most chapters after all.

However, my point was less that releasing stuff for Marines doesn't mean we can't have things for other factions because we're getting things for other factions too.

 Mr Morden wrote:

What non Primaris models are beign called out for by Marine players?

Thunderhawk

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.

Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.

How was the Imperium supposed to resist?

Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.

Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.

Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.

Except the dead seem to never leave the game anyways (looking at you Tycho, and you Uriah Jacobus) and being a named character in this setting (at least if you're in a rulebook and not just the EU stuff from the BL or other things) is a ticket to stick around for a long time, even if you "should" be dead.

Even if they're included in the books, there's arguably more gravitas if they can actually die.

Also, the characters that get rules tend to be (not suprisingly) the ones with a model. But some have been retired for sure. Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines. Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists. Lord Commander Solar Macharius of the Guard.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.

Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.

How was the Imperium supposed to resist?

Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.

Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.

Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.

Except the dead seem to never leave the game anyways (looking at you Tycho, and you Uriah Jacobus) and being a named character in this setting (at least if you're in a rulebook and not just the EU stuff from the BL or other things) is a ticket to stick around for a long time, even if you "should" be dead.

Even if they're included in the books, there's arguably more gravitas if they can actually die.

Also, the characters that get rules tend to be (not suprisingly) the ones with a model. But some have been retired for sure. Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines. Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists. Lord Commander Solar Macharius of the Guard.

True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.

Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.

Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.

Gulliman was "revived" by Eldar Death God Warp Heresy. Poor writing can cure any wound

 Vankraken wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.

Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.

Gulliman was "revived" by Eldar Death God Warp Heresy. Poor writing can cure any wound

His soul was poisoned. No amount of Ad Mech incense can cure that.

 Crimson wrote:
Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.

I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.

Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.

I was kinda the opposite at first. I was ok with gathering storm though I thought it was a little to hopeful and didn't do enough for Chaos.

But Bobby G being back could have been written really well with him having significant problems even as a Primarch getting the absolute mess of an administration that the modern Imperium is to combat the worst case scenario . Then marines 2.0 came out, chaos hasn't felt like much of a real threat and we get a time skip that glosses over what would have been some of the most interesting time after his resurrection.

Game wise though I agree 100 %. I started back in 5th when troops mattered and big stompy stuff was mostly an apoc thing. The games has become incredibly lethal to anything but the hardest of models, which has largely turned me off from tournament play. I remember fondly when killing a tank took effort.

The fact the Primarchs were missing and not dead, always implied their return. Russ himself guaranteed his return.

Plus, I don't see their return as an indicator that the Imperium's fate has changed.

 Stormonu wrote:

I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.

Well, that is pretty much 'setting ruined' for me...

Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.

And yeah, I absolutely agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The fact the Primarchs were missing and not dead, always implied their return. Russ himself guaranteed his return.

It was just a legend and should have stayed so. I'm not expecting King Arthur to return any time soon either, even if Britain is in grave peril due the Brexit...

I still don't understand how GW having their own narrative about their select characters stops anyone from having their own about Their Dudes.

Is it any different from decades before with GW's named characters doing their thing, with places like Armageddon and Cadia? The only difference as I see it is that these characters are bigger, generally more powerful and have more important roles within the wider galaxy (but then even someone like Calgar, Abaddon, or Aun'va alone was incredibly powerful in influence), but I don't understand how that fundamentally shifts the setting so much that you still can't play with Your Dudes.

Indeed. Even with all the focus on these powerful named characters, at the moment I don't have a single named character mini in my collection. I'm not opposed to getting them and may well pick up a couple at some point, but whenever I'm buying models or looking to write lists I nearly always prefer the generic HQ.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.

I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.

Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.

But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?

If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.

The Roman empire "fell", but the eastern portion reformed, and lasted another 1000 years. When you have territory to surrender, turnarounds are possible. All they really need is to get back to scientific theory and execute the inquisition wholesale.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.

I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.

Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.

But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?

If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.

Rule #1: no one who complains about the lore actually reads the lore.

I'm mostly joking, but it has been a thing that I've noticed over the years: the biggest complaints about lore are usually based on "the memes".

I fully agree with that.

The biggest problem GW has, and is inherent in a setting tied to physical models, is GW can only do so much to really change the setting with out alienating a large portion of it's fan base. This leads to a lot of the recent fluff coming off as telling not showing.

Cadia blew up and what really changed on the table top. The Imperium got a demi god back and super duper marines. The Imperium got super duper knights and mini ones to go along with it. They got hover tanks and Custodes all over the place.

This to me is the biggest problem actually finding the setting advancing meaning anything. There is a ton of fluff that things are worse than ever but it isn't really reflected well in the table top, the release schedule and Primaris marines don't help.

We have the wolves and Blood Angels nearly wiped out and then boom JK, we have a ton of new better marines. GW says there is a struggle but it doesn't feel like anything really changed.

The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.

Custodes always existed and were let out of their box because the Imperium is that boned and really the only things really "new" are the Primaris (who have 10,000 years of work behind their release into the galaxy).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.

Custodes always existed and were let out of their box

Right. Just like the Daemon Primarchs. So the Imperium gained a Primarch and super marines while Chaos gained nothing.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.

Custodes always existed and were let out of their box

Right. Just like the Daemon Primarchs. So the Imperium gained a Primarch and super marines while Chaos gained nothing.

Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.

Whether they existed in the background ins't my point. GW under minds it's own fluff due to it's own inherent inherent interest in making money ( as any business should). They keep putting forward fluff that says the IOM is allegedly worse off than before but it's not reflected well due to GW being to cautious, due to not wanted to alienate existing players. They can't/ won't kill of a major chapter, most of the named characters, etc.

They moved the setting forward but nothing really changed. Hell even the in the Gathering Storm series which should have been Chaos's big moment, they got no models, no rules and were treated almost as an afterthought after book 1. I'm a Marine player through and through but I find it increasingly frustrating that GW is both now treating the setting like a story but not actually changing anything. I would have preferred them to have fleshed out 30k to 40k and given all the other factions some more love than continue to produce models for a line that was complete and already sold well.

Also if you want to call Guilliman "new" then Magnus and Mortation are equally "new" since they didn't have options for 40k play before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Whether they existed in the background ins't my point. GW under minds it's own fluff due to it's own inherent inherent interest in making money ( as any business should). They keep putting forward fluff that says the IOM is allegedly worse off than before but it's not reflected well due to GW being to cautious, due to not wanted to alienate existing players. They can't/ won't kill of a major chapter, most of the named characters, etc.

They moved the setting forward but nothing really changed. Hell even the in the Gathering Storm series which should have been Chaos's big moment, they got no models, no rules and were treated almost as an afterthought after book 1. I'm a Marine player through and through but I find it increasingly frustrating that GW is both now treating the setting like a story but not actually changing anything. I would have preferred them to have fleshed out 30k to 40k and given all the other factions some more love than continue to produce models for a line that was complete and already sold well.

You're kidding right? GW has and will kill off named characters. They just don't take them away from being playable on the table nearly as often as they kill them (as long as they have a model of course).

And while we can point out over and over that there is the evidence the Imperium really is worse despite getting more stuff for you to put on the table, or the setting gaining Primaris (the Indomitus Crusade wasn't truly won, Guilliman had to give it the "Mission Complete" treatment to make the Imperium have hope that they COULD win), I've yet to see in setting evidence that the Imperium is actually better with Guilliman back or Primaris running around. I hear a lot of hyperbole and memes but not canon proof of said "better Imperium" people claim exists.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.

But I was talking about the setting, not the game.