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2018/10/13 20:12:53
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Re: the primarch discussion, I've played the bad guys and the unpopular choices (Troll Shaman here) in enough franchises to know: people who play the Big Damn Heroes get absolutely pissed when someone else gets something without them getting compensation. As loathe as I am to admit it the loyalist marines are GW's moneymakers, and if you think the whining about primaris is bad you would not believe the hell that would have been unleashed if GW had put out multiple Chaos primarchs without giving the loyalists any of their own.
2018/10/13 20:22:28
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Arachnofiend wrote: Re: the primarch discussion, I've played the bad guys and the unpopular choices (Troll Shaman here) in enough franchises to know: people who play the Big Damn Heroes get absolutely pissed when someone else gets something without them getting compensation. As loathe as I am to admit it the loyalist marines are GW's moneymakers, and if you think the whining about primaris is bad you would not believe the hell that would have been unleashed if GW had put out multiple Chaos primarchs without giving the loyalists any of their own.
I play loyalist marines and I would have loved that! Guilliman is literally the worst thing that has happened to 40K in its entire history. But, yeah, you're probably right about it on general level.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Roboute is hardly the worst thing to happen to 40k unless you fervently follow hyperbole from 1d4chan.
I don't read 4chan. He is most drastic change in the lore on thematic level since the 2nd edition, and not a change in good direction. YMMV.
Indeed YMMV - it does massively. For about the hundedeth time the setting is actually more dark now - IF you actually read the fluff.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
Yeah. A Demi God comes back from the dead basically and everyone thinks he can save the day, and try as he might he really isn't helping so much. The theme of fighting the losing fight to the end? Noble BUT very dark.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/10/14 02:13:31
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
Yeah. A Demi God comes back from the dead basically and everyone thinks he can save the day, and try as he might he really isn't helping so much. The theme of fighting the losing fight to the end? Noble BUT very dark.
I actually like Bobby G being back, it's mostly the follow up I have an issue with. I hate the Primaris concept since it means three things. At some point my army is getting squatted. Second GW is launching a whole new range of marines which is not what the game or background needed. Third, they continue GW's incredibly boring trend of pruning more and more options from the game and focusing increasingly on mono pose/semi monopose models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/14 02:19:28
2018/10/14 02:23:25
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
I think it is pretty obvious based on the releases over the past few years that they want to move the entire model range to a larger scale. Everything just keeps getting bigger, even the bases. They want bigger models that can have more detail and are maybe easier to paint and maybe they think more visually appealing? Or maybe just because they will be a different scale from other games so that people will have a harder time mixing in third party bits and models? Or maybe just to encourage everyone to have to buy all new models?
Whatever the reasons, it seems clear that after a pretty good stretch of consistency, the scale is growing rapidly again.
Project log and campaign featuring Orks, Imperial Guard, Marines, Tyranids: http://www.xhorikwar.blogspot.com/ Currently focused on our Horus Heresy campaign with White Scars, Death Guard and Imperial Militia.
2018/10/14 02:35:31
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.
But I was talking about the setting, not the game.
The setting had no word about any of that stuff before, so it's stuff the setting gained, even if (from the perspective of the people in the setting) "it was there all along".
2018/10/14 04:20:25
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
fraser1191 wrote: Everyone keeps crowing about Guilliman. Poor magnus was the first primarch back and nobody cares enough to remember
They sweep any contradictory facts under the rug to preserve a narrative that it's Guilliman who is somehow the trigger for everything. In fact I want to point out that until recently the only thing he did in the lore was attack Fenris once and lost. Suddenly he's a lot more active and doing stuff other than being Tzeentch's trophy wife, and so is Mortarion. We have new stuff happening with these two and new stuff brought into the game because of them, but it's somehow Guilliman's fault we have new stuff in the game.
2018/10/14 05:24:09
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
fraser1191 wrote: Everyone keeps crowing about Guilliman. Poor magnus was the first primarch back and nobody cares enough to remember
Listen, there is one very good reason why Magnus coming back and getting a gorgeous new model is great and should not be even remotely comparable to Guilliman:
1. I am love him
2018/10/14 06:10:40
Subject: Re:Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
In fairness Morty and Magnus being about and doing stuff is something that to one degree or another has always been in the background, that IS differant from Gulliman's return, narrativly speaking
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/14 08:13:06
Subject: Re:Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Crimson wrote: Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?
If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.
Rule #1: no one who complains about the lore actually reads the lore.
I'm mostly joking, but it has been a thing that I've noticed over the years: the biggest complaints about lore are usually based on "the memes".
I've read about 60-70% of Return of the Primarch and it's....bad. It's an Over-the-Top bolter porn summary of a bad trope-filled fanfic. And I don't use any of those words lightly - they aren't something I'd normally say about someone's writings.
More detailed breakdown in spoiler - some spoilers
Spoiler:
Breaking it down further - the story is written at a summary level; to save time/space you are assumed to be familiar with all the models GW produces that are mentioned in the story. The action in the story is fast and furious and you don't get the character's reactions (if any) to what's occurring around them. It's action for action's sake. For example, when Bobby G. and company arrive at the Web portal on Luna and are attacked, Bobby G or the others don't have any sort of emotional reaction when the accompanying marines are ambushed. There's no surprise, no anguish at the loss, no passing curiosity in what just happened - it just happens and it gives Bobby G. and Magnus a one-page excuse to have a superhero fight, with a close-up on the two's momentary engagement. Then, as suddenly as the senseless fight starts, it's over, we move to the doorstep of the Emperor's palace, Cipher gets nabbed (not really, of course - without even bothering to mention anything about his imprisonment, plans or escape - other than "he does because he's Cipher!") and then the story ends. If Bobby G. is in anguish then, I sure don't feel it - because we don't get any insight into his state of mind, what he asks, what he sees, what he may even hear from the Emperor - if anything.
Overall, it felt like something that would have been at most a page's summary in the Ultramarine Codex, stretched thinly out over 96 pages.
[/spoiler]
I can't comment on the Space Wolf story, I've not read it, but I fear they probably used the same writing/writer for it.
Someone also mentioned about how having characters, like Bobby G., in the game detracted from the game now as opposed to how they've always been in the game in the past. Well, for one thing, at least up to around 5th, they could only be included in fairly large games (I think it was 2,000 points or more) and only with the approval of the opponent (which I never did, they are some of the most broken gak in this game). Now, you can't seem to run an army without them. It's like being forced to have Rommel, Patton or even Eisenhower in every single WW2 skirmish game you play.
It never ends well
2018/10/14 12:17:23
Subject: Re:Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
BrianDavion wrote: In fairness Morty and Magnus being about and doing stuff is something that to one degree or another has always been in the background, that IS differant from Gulliman's return, narrativly speaking
Yes, absolutely! It doesn't change the fluff, the chaos Primarchs have always been there. The point of the Imperium was that it is a rotting corpse run by uncaring oligarchs, it's glory days long past it, heroes of the old being barely remembered legends. That one of those mythical heroes not only returns but effectively becomes the leader of the Imperium and starts to run the show is a gigantic change; even if you liked it, you must recognise that!
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
No you are not understanding that the theme remains the same - the fact that RG has golden armour does not mean that its suddenly changed the "theme" - thats a very shallow way to look at it and hating one charcter does not mean that it does not fit the universe - it just means you hate that character,
I've read about 60-70% of Return of the Primarch and it's....bad. It's an Over-the-Top bolter porn summary of a bad trope-filled fanfic. And I don't use any of those words lightly - they aren't something I'd normally say about someone's writings.
If Bobby G. is in anguish then, I sure don't feel it - because we don't get any insight into his state of mind, what he asks, what he sees, what he may even hear from the Emperor - if anything.
"Sigh" have you even read page 40? The entire page is about his state of mind and feelings of dispair, exhaustion and shock at what the Imperium has become.
The writing is pretty standard for a GW campaign pack, its ok, it rattles along and they try to throw in character insights/POV which for some reason you are not reading....
Space Wolves - flick through the codex and look at McMurder Murder the murder dreadnought from Planet Murder with his mates Wolf McWolf on his Wolf Wolf and wielding his wolfy wolf sword. the Cmapign pack is not awesome but is a work o genius compared to that dross.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Crimson wrote:It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
I get the themes. I still think they're there.
Crimson wrote:Yes, absolutely! It doesn't change the fluff, the chaos Primarchs have always been there.
And all the loyalist Primarchs have been set up as possible to return, including Guilliman, who was pretty much said in writing that people believed he could heal and come back.
The loyalists weren't in the field, but it was definitely established that nearly all of them could come back at a moment's notice.
The point of the Imperium was that it is a rotting corpse run by uncaring oligarchs, it's glory days long past it, heroes of the old being barely remembered legends. That one of those mythical heroes not only returns but effectively becomes the leader of the Imperium and starts to run the show is a gigantic change; even if you liked it, you must recognise that!
And that point is still there, because Guilliman realises that he is not the "mythical hero" (people attribute things to him that he knows he didn't do, he outright says that a lot of the reforms he made were wrong, and he is not the same Guilliman that people think he is), and even his "starting to run the show" is more of an "appease the powers that be, and try and correct the mistakes of my past and that of the Imperium for the good of humanity".
Yes, we now have a story arc of rebuilding, repentance, and personal development, but it doesn't come at the cost of the "Imperium is corrupt and outdated" theme, in my opinion.
They/them
2018/10/14 19:27:12
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
I want to point out that in Dark Imperium it clearly states that Guilliman's hair is starting to thin and it's going gray at the temples.
Considering he's one of the younger Primarchs (due to spending so much time in stasis), this is more likely a sign of stress. And I just want to comment that if he's that stressed out over everything then it's clear he's not doing anything quickly, easilly or effortlessly.
2018/10/14 20:15:49
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/14 20:29:02
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Xenomancers wrote: Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.
When only one really and its only on RG
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
ClockworkZion wrote: I want to point out that in Dark Imperium it clearly states that Guilliman's hair is starting to thin and it's going gray at the temples.
Considering he's one of the younger Primarchs (due to spending so much time in stasis), this is more likely a sign of stress. And I just want to comment that if he's that stressed out over everything then it's clear he's not doing anything quickly, easilly or effortlessly.
yeah I just started Plague war and am looking forward to more little details like that, Haley did a great job with DI when you consider that the story was ultimately just a tie in novel to the boxed set that was primarily a "these are primaris marines you want to buy them" type project
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/14 21:06:09
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
Xenomancers wrote: Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.
When only one really and its only on RG
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/14 21:13:54
Subject: Primaris Marines to replace normal Marines?
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
So much hyperbole. It's just comical at this point
