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HoundsofDemos wrote:
My dislike for the Centurion models were one they looked kind silly, like can that thing even walk? The other were they weren't needed. The marine line didn't need much other than scouts getting a refreshed kit IMO. The range is more or less complete and GW should have focused it's energies one getting the other factions into plastic or digging into the fluff and bringing in new factions.

Totally agree on the scouts, those are kind of awful. I'll also agree that other ranges need an upgrade more than Marines needed new stuff. I do love my Centurion Devastators though, I wish the Primaris line had anything even approaching that much firepower. I'm seriously tempted to trim some of the iconography off mine before I paint them so they'll blend in better with the Primaris.

^I passed on the scouts too. I feel like some of that generation of plastics really didn't come out well. All my Scouts are the 3rd Ed era metals.

Personally, I like both Dreadknights and Centurions and actually wish we had Imperial Guardsmen with exoskeleton suits to boot.

The one quote that has always stuck in my mind for the "feel" of 40K has been:

Rogue Trader BRB wrote:
..To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions....Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. . . .

This is my beef with the likes of Gulliman and the current crusade. It just feels so much like a tonal shift away from what I liked about 40K. The game is still about the same thing - endless battles on the tabletop, but the slowly crumbling world, Pyrrhic-battle-laden background *feels* like it's been replaced with a sort of WW2 America "Here comes Bobby GeeWiz. and his numarines to save all you poor saps suffering under this oppressive 'warp storm' thingee" instead of the bitter last gasp of a dying empire throwing the last of its most precious warriors into a meat grinder they know they can't win.

I'll buy primaris any day of the week (if I didn't have a ton of models already), but I just don't like the tone GW seems to push for the universe of late.

People who feel like Guilliman has managed to save the Imperium REALLY need to read Dark Imperium.

Guilliman, even after more than a hundred years, doesn't even know enough about what happened in the Imperium to make decisions on how to tackle some of it's problems, he calls a crusade a "victory" just to give the Imperium something to hold onto and is relying heavily on propaganda to even make it look like things MIGHT not end badly.

And let's not even get into the fact that it's apparently illegal to record when the Custodes lose a conflict meaning the Golden Boys might not be actually helping that much in the Imperium since we only get to know about their victories. Thanks Administratum for that one.

Also over the years the tone has got darker and darker. IMHO it got to Grim Derp. And when they changed it back to Grim Dark people overreacted like they changed it to Noble Bright.

Personally I don't like it when there is no hope. A little hope is good, but no hope is pointless.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People who feel like Guilliman has managed to save the Imperium REALLY need to read Dark Imperium.

Guilliman, even after more than a hundred years, doesn't even know enough about what happened in the Imperium to make decisions on how to tackle some of it's problems, he calls a crusade a "victory" just to give the Imperium something to hold onto and is relying heavily on propaganda to even make it look like things MIGHT not end badly.

And let's not even get into the fact that it's apparently illegal to record when the Custodes lose a conflict meaning the Golden Boys might not be actually helping that much in the Imperium since we only get to know about their victories. Thanks Administratum for that one.

Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.

And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?

Hope in Grimdark is like a joke in a horror movie. They set you up, so you have further to fall when it hits you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.

And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?

https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/dark-imperium-the-last-faithful-son-ebook.html

 Stormonu wrote:


And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?

Maybe you should puke less and read more.

Page 32 Codex: Adeptus Custodes

The Dangers of Excellence Amid the horrors of the ongoing war against Chaos is it deemed heresy for the Administratium clerks to suggest that the Adeptus Custodes could ever lose a battle, regardless of the odds. Fearing for their safety many adepts record campaigns as Imperial victories before the first shots are even fired, should so much as a single Custodien be reported in the war zone. Needless to say more then 1 system is lost to subsequent disaster despite the Custodians endeavors

Seriously, this it OUT RIGHT STATED in the god damned codex you claimed "makes you want to puke" it outright says "the Imperium belives the Custodes are so awesome, they automaticly assume any campaign they fight in will be a success.. and as such battles have been lost because they've been too god damned hidebound to consider that the Custdoes might need reinforcements.

So clearly you've not been reading even the limited stuff you claim you have been reading.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:


And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?

Maybe you should puke less and read more.

Page 32 Codex: Adeptus Custodes

The Dangers of Excellence Amid the horrors of the ongoing war against Chaos is it deemed heresy for the Administratium clerks to suggest that the Adeptus Custodes could ever lose a battle, regardless of the odds. Fearing for their safety many adepts record campaigns as Imperial victories before the first shots are even fired, should so much as a single Custodien be reported in the war zone. Needless to say more then 1 system is lost to subsequent disaster despite the Custodians endeavors

Seriously, this it OUT RIGHT STATED in the god damned codex you claimed "makes you want to puke" it outright says "the Imperium belives the Custodes are so awesome, they automaticly assume any campaign they fight in will be a success.. and as such battles have been lost because they've been too god damned hidebound to consider that the Custdoes might need reinforcements.

So clearly you've not been reading even the limited stuff you claim you have been reading.

Calm the feth down. I don't memorize 40K, I just asked a question.

BrianDavion wrote:

Backfire wrote:

I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.

Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.

sure except 40k didn;'t progress the lore at all and had the exact same thing happen. There is a balance in moving the lore, what was happening is that 40k was getting stale, GW needed to shake things up a bit. now that they have I expect we'll return to the days of "event conflicts" ala 3rd editions armageddon, black crusade etc days

You are correct in the sense that if you are involved in the lore for many years/decades, both static and dynamic lore are going to feel stale (although not necessarily from the same reason). However, gaming systems survive by gaining new fans. No matter how good the rule and lore is, most players eventually leave the game anyway.
This is where the static system is, in the long run, superior because it is much easier for newcomer to swallow because while details are changed, added or retconned, basic premises stay the same. In progressing lore, every newcomer faces increasingly longer and more convoluted chronicle which he's supposed to familiarize with. Eventually, it's going to reach the point where it feels confusing and overwhelming.

WHF Old World faced, I think, a different dilemma from 40k setting in that the world was designed like a real world (because it was modelled after the Earth). Geography gave lots of trouble for writers because there were many regions which were important in the lore but not covered in tabletop at all, and it was difficult to come up with reasons for geographically very removed enemies to fight. 40k galaxy is much less restricted in this respect. Having said that, I don't much like AoS setting. It feels too fantastic, somewhat like MtG lore, and doesn't come across as real world with real people and places to fight over.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hope in Grimdark is like a joke in a horror movie. They set you up, so you have further to fall when it hits you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.

And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?

https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/dark-imperium-the-last-faithful-son-ebook.html

100% agree with you. The RT tone kind of sucked to be honest.

The Imperium is still screwed in the new fluff, but it's not all Grim all the time, and that's an improvement in my eyes. Make it too dark and it just comes across as stupid. Dark for dark's sake. Add in some points of light and the setting is way more interesting.

a game whose lore moves too much and too fast is problematic absolutely no argument from me there. I played Battletech belive me I know EXACTLY how that can be a problem but being TOO static can also be a problem, the IDEAL is to find something of a middle ground where changes to the setting are rare, and brought in only once things have been fleshed out and filled in to a degree that you're beginning to simply retread old ground. Well I'd not nesscarily object to the occasional change to MAAAAYBE bring in some more primarchs and "primarch equivilants" I would object if GW kept moving the storyline too fast, shaking the setting up overmuch. it's an easy trap to fall into for a world company though as well.. it sells. WOTC fell into this trap during third edition D&D in FR, the fanbase refered to them on a whole as "RSEs" (Realms shaking events) and it grew tiresome, until 4th edition and the resultant backlash just about killed the setting.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, the problem with the Centurions was that they looked completely silly.

In the old days studio sculpted the units based on what lore writers came up with. This changed about 10 years ago, nowadays scuptors draw a concept of a model, one of the higher-ups decided "this looks good" and direct writers to come up with lore and rules for it.
Obvious down side of this is that the design has veered towards generic scifi/fantasy style. Most of the artists are professionals not really connected or involved with Warhammer lore. I feel that somewhat same thing has happened with lore, too in recent years as the style has clearly gone towards generic fantasy/scifi.

From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

Backfire wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, the problem with the Centurions was that they looked completely silly.

In the old days studio sculpted the units based on what lore writers came up with. This changed about 10 years ago, nowadays scuptors draw a concept of a model, one of the higher-ups decided "this looks good" and direct writers to come up with lore and rules for it.
Obvious down side of this is that the design has veered towards generic scifi/fantasy style. Most of the artists are professionals not really connected or involved with Warhammer lore. I feel that somewhat same thing has happened with lore, too in recent years as the style has clearly gone towards generic fantasy/scifi.[/quote

I disagree. Jes Goodwin is still one of the main conceptual designers (not a sculptor anymore) and the sculptors often work from his ideas. He’s been there for almost as long as we’ve had Warhammer 40,000, and could hardly ever be accused of generic SF work. With him and John Blanche still influencing the models produced we have had almost exactly the same design direction for about 25 years.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

I suspect we'll find out they didn't destroy ALL of them. hopefully at least.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

I'm sure some of their successor chapters would pitch in and help out their founders.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.

 maeglin wrote:
Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

Did they make sure to check under the sofa cushions for a spare or two before declaring they were all out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 maeglin wrote:
Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.

There isn't really a way to "ease into" making them bigger and sticking a Primarch implant into Marines.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

Did they make sure to check under the sofa cushions for a spare or two before declaring they were all out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 maeglin wrote:
Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.

Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?


Angus

No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.

There isn't really a way to "ease into" making them bigger and sticking a Primarch implant into Marines.

Yes there is, there could be a story that spanned a few years of Cawl toiling at making marines, creating and field testing marines etc. making great lore and novels on the matter, having lore liek the traitors trying to sabotage and steal the project etc. That would actually be cool, rather than just plopping down the models one day and saying 'yeah now these are called primaris, we've written some contrived ex-machina bs lore, because we don't know how to plan in advance, but we hope you buy our product with gak lore, because all we care about is that cheddar.'

 Stux wrote:
The Imperium is still screwed in the new fluff, but it's not all Grim all the time, and that's an improvement in my eyes. Make it too dark and it just comes across as stupid. Dark for dark's sake. Add in some points of light and the setting is way more interesting.

I agree, but to each their own. Some people prefer super dark, some people prefer a brighter outlook. Some people truly believe Imperial society can survive 10,000 years while receding at a steady rate. In a fictional setting, why not? you do you. If you like a more realistic outlook like me, you'd quickly realize that recession becomes a snowballing effect. Loss of knowledge/breakdown of society/civilization at a constant rate requires more and more resources to bandage and compensate. But again, you do you, and to each their own. Its one of the appealing things about 40k. its everyones story, and its no ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes there is, there could be a story that spanned a few years of Cawl toiling at making marines, creating and field testing marines etc. making great lore and novels on the matter, having lore liek the traitors trying to sabotage and steal the project etc. That would actually be cool, rather than just plopping down the models one day and saying 'yeah now these are called primaris, we've written some contrived ex-machina bs lore, because we don't know how to plan in advance, but we hope you buy our product with gak lore, because all we care about is that cheddar.'

I'm more annoyed at the size discrepancy between old models and primaris models. Either do one or the other donkey-caves!

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.

The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.

Oh, yay, ANOTHER thread gaking all over Primaris. How original!

Let's move this replacement on so we can finally jettison this dead horse into space, where it and all the squat frowny face clown marines belong.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.

The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.

Yeah that's just an unnecessary ritual. So no they didn't lose the ability.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?

Yeah, that really doesn't make any sense...

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

Good spot, I like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?

Funnily enough, if you compare the hands of a Primaris model to those of a classic marine, you will find Primaris actually have slightly smaller hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."

AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.

The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.

That’s not true, they must have found replacements. The blood angels codex confirms they are still making normal marines alongside Primaris.