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2018/10/24 01:03:26
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
The whole C'tan being shoehorned into the setting and then later retconned is such a mess. And it is not even clear that the Dragon of Mars is C'tan. It is just a thing that is there, (and has been there before establishing of Mechanicus,) which dreams silly fairytales about ancient knights. Dreams rarely have much factual basis, dreams of dragons even less so. Perhaps the knight and the Emperor in the dream are allegories to the humanity, which defeated this being (which might be a C'tan shard) during the dark age of technology and imprisoned it there. Who knows? The Emperor is always pretending that it was just according to keikaku, but he is probably just making it up as he goes along. If he could plan things that far in advance, then the whole heresy wouldn't have happened.
Crimson wrote: The whole C'tan being shoehorned into the setting and then later retconned is such a mess. And it is not even clear that the Dragon of Mars is C'tan. It is just a thing that is there, (and has been there before establishing of Mechanicus,) which dreams silly fairytales about ancient knights. Dreams rarely have much factual basis, dreams of dragons even less so. Perhaps the knight and the Emperor in the dream are allegories to the humanity, which defeated this being (which might be a C'tan shard) during the dark age of technology and imprisoned it there. Who knows? The Emperor is always pretending that it was just according to keikaku, but he is probably just making it up as he goes along. If he could plan things that far in advance, then the whole heresy wouldn't have happened.
You still have the Emperor fighting Gog on Old Earth in Mark of Calth. And don't deny the Perpetuals as proof just because you hate them.
And its not a dream, its a memory.
And the Emperor did orchestrate the evolution of the Mechanicus and the Imperium over tens of thousands of years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:15:38
2018/10/24 01:18:34
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Here is the quote from Mark of Calth where the Emperor fights Gog on Old Earth.
Gog serves kings, betrays saints and steals secrets while bearing faces which are also lies. He travels across mountains and oceans and down the long slope of time. He is hunted but never caught. You go with him, never lost even in flight or defeat. Your edge gains notches; your handle becomes black and polished with blood and endless use. At last you reach a broken tower in a rain-shrouded land. Gog wakes from a dream to the sound of thunder and the splash of hooves in mud. He is on his feet even as his eyes snap open. Rain is pouring through the roof of the tower. Time has taken the ragged cloak from his back, and replaced it with scarred leather and black ring-mail. He has a sword in his hand. You wait at his waist, held in a sheath of tanned skin. His eyes dart between holes in the tower’s stone walls. His armour is heavy, sodden and cold against his skin. His breath is ragged. He is afraid. He has never faced an enemy that could harm him; he knows too much, but he can no longer hear the voice of the wind. The storm roars around the tower walls, but it has no voice – its sound is silent to his soul. He calls out, but the wind and shadows remain mute.
He is powerless. A thunderbolt blinks white light through the cracks in the tower walls. Gog can hear the sound of clinking metal even over the drumming of the rain. The tower has only one door, and its wood is rotten. The light of burning torches flickers through the gaps in the door’s planks. Gog screams for the night and storm to aid him, but no answer comes. The rotten door bursts inwards. The dancing light of torches spills into the tower. Gog screams as he lunges at the first figure to come through the door. It is a knight. Polished metal and silver mail cover the man’s muscled body and a closed helm hides his face. Gog’s first strike staggers the knight, and the second glides through the helm’s eye slit. He falls in a clatter of steel. Blood mingles with rain upon the silver of his breastplate. Gog shouts in triumph and fear. A second knight comes through the door and swings a spiked mace. Gog dodges back and snarls. A third knight follows, carrying a broad-headed spear to stand at his comrade’s side. Gog draws you, curling you in his left hand. The knight lunges with his spear. Gog pivots at the last second, and the spear’s tip grazes the mail over his gut. Gog hacks down with his sword, and the knight’s right leg crumples, his head arching up to expose his neck. You stab into a gap between plate, leather and mail. You rip out, scattering blood that looks almost black in the gloom. Thunder rolls overhead. The remaining knight shouts a challenge and spins his mace – beyond the door wait more metal-clad figures, their pitch torches guttering in the storm. Gog knows that his masters have deserted him, that he will die here. He laughs. The knight with the mace brings it up to strike. ‘Hold.’ The voice is not loud but it rises over the shriek of the wind and the hammer of rain. The knight with the mace freezes, and Gog sees his chance. He stabs at the knight’s face, but a sword blade meets Gog’s lunge and turns it aside. Another figure has entered the tower. Gold armour-plates cover the figure from his throat to his feet**.** A cloak of scarlet and orange ripples at his back. He wears no helm, though a crown of silver leaves and golden feathers circles his dark hair above a lean face. The drawn sword in the figure’s hand is flame-touched silver. Gog looks into the crowned figure’s eyes, for a second they are the green of the sea. He knows those eyes, though he has never seen them before. Lightning strikes somewhere close by, and in the eye-blink of brightness the golden figure’s eyes turn liquid black. Only now does Gog hear the wind’s voice again; it is faint, as if it is shouting from a great distance. It is screaming with rage, calling out for blood. Gog shivers. He feels pressure building in his skull. He grips you tighter in his off-hand, and mutters a sound that cracks his teeth. The blood on your blade begins to hiss and steam. Gog’s shadow is crawling across the floor. The rain begins to fall as hail. The crowned figure is utterly still, his face as unforgiving as carven marble. Gog’s sword slashes for him, but the figure meets the blow as the thunder rolls, and Gog’s blade shatters. Sharp fragments of steel spin through the air. Gog turns without pausing – you sweep out towards the crowned figure and your edge scores across the gold. Your tip finds a join between two plates and punches forwards. Gog roars with triumph. In that instant, your point catches on flawless silver ring-mail. The crowned figure speaks a single word that rolls with the thunder’s echo. Gog falls to his knees with a crack of shattering bones. You almost fall from his fingers, as his hands grope at the rain-slick flagstones. The figure looks down at him, drops of rain catching in the chalices, feathers and roses engraved upon the golden armour.
He turns his sword so that it is pointing down at Gog’s neck. You feel Gog’s fingers tighten on your handle. He can still hear the distant screams of the wind – the voices are calling for blood, for an offering, for a final payment in exchange for his unnaturally long life. Gog knows that he has only one last blow to land, and that he must give a death to the voices beyond the shadows. The sword above Gog twitches. You move first, plunging up through Gog’s throat and into his brain. He looks up at the crowned figure with cold, dead eyes and then slumps sideways. The figure lowers his unbloodied blade, as rot spreads across the dead flesh – the delayed ruin of a stretched life coming to claim its due. Gog’s skull begins to crumble around you. Muscle, blood and brain turns to foul jelly. The crowned man watches the body dissolve. His expression is unreadable. He knows that something has been stolen from his victory, but does not know what. After a long moment he turns and walks from the broken tower. A circle of knights wait for him, holding wind-rippled torches. One of the knights bows his head. ‘We will have to wait for the storm to pass before we set the fires, my liege,’says the knight. The crowned figure shakes his head and walks on. A pillar of lightning reaches down from the clouds above and strikes the ruined masonry, thunder mingling with the scream of exploding wood and cracking stone. The knights shield their faces, but they will carry the after-image of the thunderbolt in their eyes for many hours. You feel the touch of the lightning, but it does not break you. You lie serenely in the tower’s ruin, as shattered stone and embers bury you and the storm rolls on in the sky above. Third You sleep beneath the earth. You dream in a bed of ashes. Only poisoned plants grow on the ground above you, and men shun the heap of broken rock that was once a tower. The bone of your handle rots; roots curl around your blade like crooked fingers. Floods spread and drain. Cities rise in wood and stone, and end in fire. Wars churn the ground to mud, and blood soaks down to disturb your fitful slumber. Furnaces and factories darken the sky with smoke: iron and the turning wheel remaking the world. Men discover new truths and forget the old ways. Kingdoms and empires spread and contract. Seas and oceans drain to basins of dust. The heavens are conquered and the gods found to be absent from the firmament.
Even if it's not a CTan, which it is, it's still immeasurably powerful sending people to madness just by looking at it, and we saw its memories it used to eat stars, it dominated the Aztecs or whatever as a god, a sliver of its being helped power the amazing tech of the mechanicum, and it took a superhuman to defeat it. On top of that both the Dragon AND the Emperor verify this, and so it's not just "the emperor lying". And why the hell would it be? Why would he lie to one single person just to tell them their job is to keep secret this thing I just told you, knowing it's a lie?
"If he could plan that far in advance the Heresy never would have happened" other than the fact that he sculpted the heresy himself, and he knew about it and much further even when he did take the dragon, hence why it was referenced in the pool of his knowledge taken from that time and given to Dalia? All before the Heresy even happened?
Look, just say you don't like the lore and keep it moving, because unless you have anything to substantiate what you're saying, you're just dismissing what's established with outlandish head canon.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 01:22:41
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: Even if it's not a CTan, which it is, it's still immeasurably powerful sending people to madness just by looking at it, and we saw its memories it used to eat stars, it dominated the Aztecs or whatever as a god, a sliver of its being helped power the amazing tech of the mechanicum, and it took a superhuman to defeat it. On top of that both the Dragon AND the Emperor verify this, and so it's not just "the emperor lying". And why the hell would it be? Why would he lie to one single person just to tell them their job is to keep secret this thing I just told you, knowing it's a lie?
"If he could plan that far in advance the Heresy never would have happened" other than the fact that he sculpted the heresy himself, and he knew about it and much further even when he did take the dragon, hence why it was referenced in the pool of his knowledge taken from that time and given to Dalia? All before the Heresy even happened?
Look, just say you don't like the lore and keep it moving, because unless you have anything to substantiate what you're saying, you're just dismissing what's established with outlandish head canon.
I am in agreement with you. The Perpetuals are proof of that. Crimson cannot deny it just because he has a hate boner for the Perpetuals and so on.
And SHUPPET, what do you think of the Perpetuals? I love them, and even Perpetual Oll Persson.
Its not possible the Emperor had an army helping him with the Void Dragon.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him
Not really. Either the Emperor is an idiot, or he planned for everything to happen. And he would make the Heresy probably to feed off of humanity's worship so he can ascend and defeat Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:27:59
2018/10/24 01:28:34
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @onething I think the perpetuals are an incredibly stupid addition to the lore of 40k, outside of John Grammaticus, which is where it should have started and ended. However, while I hate them, I'm still not going to dismiss obvious lore for the sake of headcanon so that I can to pretend otherwise. They are here, and its unfortunate, but you are right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 01:30:51
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 01:31:28
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.
And Mechanicum shows he can see tens of thousands of years into the future. Semyon tells Dalia the Emperor orchestrated everything.
‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’
‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’
‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’
Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.
The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.
‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’
And the Perpetuals prove it all. Crimson cannot deny it just because he hates the Perpetuals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @onething I think the perpetuals are an incredibly stupid addition to the lore of 40k, outside of John Grammaticus, which is where it should have started and ended. However, while I hate them, I'm still not going to dismiss obvious lore for the sake of headcanon so that I can to pretend otherwise. They are here, and its unfortunate, but you are right.
Well, to each his own. I love the Perpetuals, but that is my opinion. And what did you think of the Emperor talking to Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh? You don't like the Perpetuals ( neither do a lot of people), but the quote itself shows the Emperor was orchestrating things for tens of thousands of years. And the Emperor says he and the other Perpetuals were created?
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.
SHUPPET wrote: This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means
There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.
Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if all persons, places, things, and events you talk about are not clear and you can't talk about with confidence in the universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/25 03:45:45
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
2018/10/24 02:47:01
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means
There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.
Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if there persons, places, things, and events you can say about this universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.
Ummm I think you responded to the wrong person or misunderstood my intent, because what you said is exactly my perspective, you just articulated it better and I agree with everything you said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 02:52:23
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 03:03:03
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means
There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.
Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if there persons, places, things, and events you can say about this universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.
Ummm I think you responded to the wrong person or misunderstood my intent, because what you said is exactly my perspective, you just articulated it better and I agree with everything you said.
So what do you think of Perpetual Oll Persson talking to the Emperor outside of Nineveh as I have quoted and linked? Regardless of not liking the Perpetuals, it shows the Emperor was playing with the galaxy for tens of thousands of years, and Perpetual Oll Persson wanted no part of it.
2018/10/24 03:06:06
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 03:06:50
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 03:11:22
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 03:12:33
2018/10/24 04:05:03
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 04:06:38
2018/10/24 04:09:49
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 04:13:22
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And why the hell would the Emperor do that with the Perpetuals? Very few people even know they exist. That's not possible. Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on.
Ideas that are not possible. But I think you were joking. Probably joking.
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Its quite well known that Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. And Damon Prytanis assassinated MLK (probably) and (maybe) Robert F. Kennedy. But while we are at it, we can say the Sororitas are prostitutes that secretly worship Slaanesh and have Nurgle dildos.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 18:16:18
2018/10/24 04:21:29
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 04:26:10
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant
I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 04:29:37
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 04:31:02
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant
I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.
The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (And I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 04:33:24
2018/10/24 04:39:58
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant
I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.
Oh I agree, however I've constructed arguments for how the DAOT idea could even work within what we do know.Just to show it's possiable.
SHUPPET wrote: i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth
I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.
And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.
Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?
Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?
For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant
I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.
Oh I agree, however I've constructed arguments for how the DAOT idea could even work within what we do know.Just to show it's possiable.
The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (And I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.
Was that BEFORE or AFTER the half eldar Ultramarine?
Technically after, but it was still in the same edition. And don't forget Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. Oh, 1st Edition Rogue Trader, how awesome but silly you are.
2018/10/24 05:39:02
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
yeaaah, I'd caution about relying tooooo heavily on that edition's fluff. It seems pretty clear to me by how purposefully vague GW is being re the Emperor's orgin that we should see that as "not nesscarily true"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 05:43:54
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
BrianDavion wrote: yeaaah, I'd caution about relying tooooo heavily on that edition's fluff. It seems pretty clear to me by how purposefully vague GW is being re the Emperor's orgin that we should see that as "not nesscarily true"
It might nonsense, but its good nonsense.
2018/10/24 06:35:36
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
SHUPPET wrote:
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!
Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
***
Onething123456 wrote:
And why the hell would the Emperor do that with the Perpetuals? Very few people even know they exist. That's not possible. Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on.
Ideas that are not possible. But I think you were joking. Probably joking.
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
***
Onething123456 wrote:
Its quite well known that Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. And Damon Prytanis assassinated MLK (probably) and (maybe) Robert F. Kennedy. But while we are at it, we can say the Sororitas are prostitutes that secretly worship Slaanesh and have Nurgle Dildos.
You're discounting established lore that conflicts with that to replace it with your "LEL FUN IDEAS xD". That's fine if you want to do that, but there's probably a better place for your fan fiction than a thread discussing the actual established lore
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 06:55:00
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 07:14:35
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
SHUPPET wrote:"LEL FUN IDEAS xD".
Paraphrasing what I said with "LEL," all capitals, "xD," and then putting it in quotation marks is neither honest, fair nor particularly friendly.
SHUPPET wrote:...there's probably a better place for your fan fiction than a thread discussing the actual established lore
That's a fair point, and to be honest, between you and Onething's obstinate defence of "established lore," and the often, and quite frankly, astringent and unfriendly tone of your replies, this thread has lost any potential for fun for me anyway, so I'm sorry for having tried to take part.
2018/10/24 07:45:08
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 07:46:21
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
