Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2018/10/24 09:51:47
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?
You're right. I think I was taking your comments too personally. My "fun ideas" were pretty silly. I'm sorry for getting testy, and I apologize for what I said about you and Onetime being unfriendly. It's sometimes difficult to determine the "tone" of a post, when all we have to rely on is text. I'll be more mindful to give the benefit of doubt from now on.
And sorry for derailing the thread. I guess it's pretty fair to say that, all things considered, the Emperor almost certainly isn't from the Dark Age of Technology.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 09:56:39
2018/10/24 09:54:53
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".
[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]
This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?
You're right. I think I was taking your comments too personally. My "fun ideas" were pretty silly. I'm sorry for getting testy, and I apologize for what I said about you and Onetime being unfriendly. It's sometimes difficult to determine the "tone" of a post, when all we have to rely on is text. I'll be more mindful to give the benefit of doubt from now on.
Same to you, I just felt like I was responding in kind to a semi snarky post. Nothing wrong with outlandish ideas, but I do feel that when they conflict with what we "know" there should probably be some convincing reason given. Sorry if I was a dick.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 11:55:38
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
Like SHUPPET said, you cannot discount the Perpetuals just because you hate them. They are part of the lore like everything else.
We know the Emperor was around in our time because of Perpetual Oll Persson. To discount him is ignoring lore and bringing your own personal canon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Who says Big E didn’t have an army to help him do that? Or a legion of psykers?
You really need to educate yourself by reading the book. He did it alone. And he forced the Word Bearers to kneel.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 18:14:39
2018/10/24 20:19:19
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?
Only when the one true thing is established by the King of Light.
Has it been confirmed that he's him? I noticed that you and Azrael's comments about him being a sockpuppet were deleted. I sense a conspiracy! Show yourself, King of Light!
2018/10/24 20:49:37
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 20:58:16
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.
It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.
It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.
Its not a dream, its a memory. Just because you don't fancy the Emperor being over 40,000 years old or the Perpetuals doesn't mean you can just deny it and the Perpetuals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A lot of people have ( ignorant a lot of times) hate boners for the Perpetuals. They are part of the lore. Don't like it? That's alright, but don't deny them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 21:29:15
2018/10/24 22:05:01
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
I’m a perpetual denier! (This whole section is getting too silly for me to even visit. U can’t have a discussion here at all.)
And I have never had a “hate boner” in my life. Onething you are a very strange chap and act in an odd way. My take on it is ol person doesn’t prove the emperor isn’t DAoT tech. Because the emperor, a perpetual, could have been assimilated into some DAoT during the DAoT. The reason it dark is we don’t know what happened then. So maybe the emperors consciousness was transmuted into a powerful AI flesh skin and that’s what we have today. Or maybe not. But it’s possible.
It’s also possible the whole thing is a big lie and the emperor is just a little man behind a sheet pulling levers and we should all click our ruby slippers together and go home.
2018/10/24 22:16:12
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.
It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.
It's not a dream, it's a memory, one provided from two separate sources (the void dragon first and then the knowledge of the emperor after to confirm it).
The Emperor, one of the galaxy's most powerful beings if not the most powerful, fought one of the last remaining C'Tan, and used the portal he already had to mars, to lock it away safely and at the same time so that it's power would be harnessed into tech developments by the humans on mars, Earth's neighboring planet, so that he could begin his crusade of the galaxy 30,000 years later. I don't think there is anything silly about it, it's cool as hell. But at the very least, it confirms he is one of the most powerful future teller well before the DAOT in the setting to know all that, as well as the heresy, the golden throne, etc, +40,000 years in advance, and that's assuming the memory of two different sources is, somehow, and absurdly implausibly, falsified. I don't even think victory would be possible even with a modern day army of humanity, let alone a medievil at BEST tech level army, not even if he had some unreasonable amount of psykers, which wasn't a thing back then. It really would take someone on the Emp's level of power to defeat a C'Tan at all. Also, he definitely has the power at this stage to make other people night immortal, as the guardian he posted up with the void dragon live for thousands of years, and eventually get sick of their post and pass it to another.
You really have to jump through a lot of highly implausible/impractical hoops to even begin to dismiss this as canon to even start discussing the Emperor being DAOT tech... he just isn't.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 22:17:43
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 22:25:45
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.
I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.
It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.
It's not a dream, it's a memory, one provided from two separate sources (the void dragon first and then the knowledge of the emperor after to confirm it).
The Emperor, one of the galaxy's most powerful beings if not the most powerful, fought one of the last remaining C'Tan, and used the portal he already had to mars, to lock it away safely and at the same time so that it's power would be harnessed into tech developments by the humans on mars, Earth's neighboring planet, so that he could begin his crusade of the galaxy 30,000 years later. I don't think there is anything silly about it, it's cool as hell. But at the very least, it confirms he is one of the most powerful future teller well before the DAOT in the setting to know all that, as well as the heresy, the golden throne, etc, +40,000 years in advance, and that's assuming the memory of two different sources is, somehow, and absurdly implausibly, falsified. I don't even think victory would be possible even with a modern day army of humanity, let alone a medievil at BEST tech level army, not even if he had some unreasonable amount of psykers, which wasn't a thing back then. It really would take someone on the Emp's level of power to defeat a C'Tan at all. Also, he definitely has the power at this stage to make other people night immortal, as the guardian he posted up with the void dragon live for thousands of years, and eventually get sick of their post and pass it to another.
You really have to jump through a lot of highly implausible/impractical hoops to even begin to dismiss this as canon to even start discussing the Emperor being DAOT tech... he just isn't.
keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 22:26:02
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Hey boys and girls, I'm here to discount the perpetuals because they are too silly and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum!
Horus Heresy was a mistake!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/10/24 22:27:48
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.
I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 22:27:58
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.
I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?
"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.
if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/10/24 22:35:30
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.
tabletop =/= lore . And regardless the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.
Crimson wrote: As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.
I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?
keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.
I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?
"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.
if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?
I think that's reading into it a bit too much, it says nothing of his power level, just that he wasn't yet known as the Emperor. Which makes perfect sense, he wasn't just born into the position he fought hard for it and became the title as soon as he had enough control that he could rightfully claim to bear it without it being absurd. That definitely doesn't disprove what's established at all, though I understand your interpretation, and I think it's one of the better theories I've read in here so far
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 22:41:57
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 22:39:20
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.
if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?
This is cool theory that nicely ties together different threads.
Crimson wrote: It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.
As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.
How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.
And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.
2018/10/24 22:45:52
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
tabletop =/= lore . And regardless if the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.
There are no whole C'Tans, they were all destroyed aeons before Emperor existed, even if he were tens of thousands of years old. And C'Tan shards are tough, sure, but they're not undefeatable, hit them hard enough and they go down.
I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?
Take it as critique of the writing or whatever, but this is idiotic mess of the BL writer's own creation. They first keep hyping the Emperor to such ludicrously cartoony levels that his defeat becomes implausible. Then they have to resort to 'well, he really meant to do that' to fix it. It is a joke, a total corruption of the story of the Horus Heresy as it originally was.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 22:48:50
Crimson wrote: It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.
As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.
How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.
And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.
We’ve been through this. Another character saying he can do something means nothing. It’s just proves what one person said to another. Not that he def has these powers.
As for the void dragon you called it a c’tan and a shard in one sentence. If it’s a C’tan fully it is so stupid that the emperor could beat it up on a horse. They are stars and battered old ones. They were gods. If it’s a shard then it’s no big deal.
And end of the day we don’t know anything. We hear a lot of stories but as for knowing we have done that argument to death. I trust in what GW says. And it says we don’t know.
2018/10/24 22:53:04
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
tabletop =/= lore . And regardless if the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.
There are no whole C'Tan's, they were all destroyed aeons before Emperor existed, even if he were tens of thousands of years old. And C'Tan shards are tough, sure, but they're not undefeatable, hit them hard enough and they go down.
the info we have on the void dragon from all sources including the Cron dexes suggests that it is the last surviving C'Tan that "remained whole through the eons and its essence was never captured within the Necrons' Tesseract Labyrinths". I wouldn't dismiss the likelihood of this being the case, whether or not it's the Dragon of Mars is unconfirmed but everything points towards it. I'll admit that this is a little shaky as it currently is (though similar to the Emperor's origin I don't think they ever intend to fully elaborate on this), if you will admit that the Dragon of Mars is not just some regular old C'Tan shard lol. Have you read Mechanicum?
SHUPPET wrote: I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?
Take it as critique of the writing or whatever, but this is idiotic mess of the BL writer's own creation. They first keep hyping the Emperor to such ludicrously cartoony levels that his defeat becomes implausible. Then they have to resort to 'well, he really meant to do that' to fix it. It is a joke, a total corruption of the story of the Horus Heresy as it originally was.
Fair enough, I can understand disliking a change of direction to the lore. I was vaguely familiar with the lore from White Dwarf and codexes, it wasn't till the Horus Heresy started expanding it that I started following it, so for me, the current state of the lore is more or less how it's always been, so I'm in no position to disagree with you on this, and I definitely feel a similar way about other franchises I've been invested in. The last Star Wars and last Alien films jump to mind.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/24 22:55:24
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/24 22:53:10
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.
As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.
How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.
And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.
We’ve been through this. Another character saying he can do something means nothing. It’s just proves what one person said to another. Not that he def has these powers.
As for the void dragon you called it a c’tan and a shard in one sentence. If it’s a C’tan fully it is so stupid that the emperor could beat it up on a horse. They are stars and battered old ones. They were gods. If it’s a shard then it’s no big deal.
And end of the day we don’t know anything. We hear a lot of stories but as for knowing we have done that argument to death. I trust in what GW says. And it says we don’t know.
‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’
‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’
‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’
Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.
The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.
‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’
"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.
if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?
This is cool theory that nicely ties together different threads.
I'm interested, I'll give you that. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was published. And what about Molech? Add that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/24 22:54:36
2018/10/24 23:11:06
Subject: My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.
tabletop =/= lore . And regardless the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.
If he was, the Emperor wouldn't even blink before being disintegrated with the whole planet. That's why I always thought the story was stupid and the shard bit saved it - 'whole' C'tan eats stars for breakfast and a group of them was able to fight civilization full of Emperor level psykers that was unimaginably more advanced than any race in 40K to a standstill. If Emperor could defeat such a thing, he would have simply sneezed and vaporized Horus with his battle barge as an afterthought instead of going mano a mano with him...
I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid
Okay, pray tell then why he allowed for everything he built for millennia to be ruined instead of saying "Valdor? Grab these bandaids and acne cream and deliver them to Horus. He could use some real soon. Oh, kill any Word Bearers you see there. Then do move your ass to Prospero and scream "I MEANT IT YOU IMBECILE, STOP RIGHT THERE" before ordering Thousand Sons to go do something useful like making Angron ex-parrot before he really ruins what used to be pretty nice Legion, will ya?"
2018/10/24 23:19:00
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Glutted on the life force of the Necrontyr, the empowered C'tan were near unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality-warping powers of the star gods. - Necron Codex, 8th Edition, page 9.
Full C'tan can do this as page 9 in the 8th Edition Necron Codex says. Page 9. Create black holes and destroy solar systems on page 9.
"In the centre of the debris cloud rose a burning ember, a mote of fire ascending from the darkness. It gathered matter and light into itself like a black hole pulling at the surface of Borsis. Hyalhi let the image of it burn into his brain, sinking in deep, because this would have to be remembered too.The being that formed in the centre of the zone of destruction hovered above the tallest spire, and its body was composed of darkness. It had no fixed shape, its only definite feature the crescent of three eyes that burned in its heart. Tendrils of it, composed of torn and compacted metal, dragged it along above the spires. Hyalhi did not have to picture the geography of Borsis to know where it was headed.What followed had to be remembered as well. Hyalhi turned his consciousness this time outside his body, riding the ripples growing in the warp from the impact of the being erupting from its prison. He could see Borsis unfolding beneath him, the endless steel canyons and metal spires rushing past. The Astral Knights had fought across much of the planet's surface but now he saw, from his high psychic vantage point, great palaces and monuments the Astral Knights had not seen. It was the work of endless millennia, the labour of countless scarabs and worker-constructs devoted to deifying their nobles.The entity roared up ahead, shredding the spiretops as it passed and absorbing the fragments of matter that flew up into its swirling mass. Limbs formed and reformed as it hauled itself along, and pulses of raw, alien hatred battered against the surface of Hyalhi's mind. It was not a human emotion, for there was nothing human about this being, but it was unmistakably hatred.The entity crossed into the Labyrinth Wastes. It passed over columns of warrior-constructs arriving to join the final stages of the battle, and those that could feel dismay felt it now as the great darkness bellowed and stormed overhead.(...)Silver and gold glittered as Overlord Heqiroth and his lychguard retinue arrived on the battlements. The darkness bore over them as the moon that passed closest to it was torn apart and absorbed into its body. Heqiroth took one look at the approaching entity and the silvery necrodermis swarmed over his body in a protective shroud.An arm of compacted debris swept the lychguard off the wall. They tumbled down the side of the cathedral along with tonnes of shattered battlement. The darkness loomed closer and the necrodermis squirmed off Heqiroth's body as if of its own accord, drawn off in ductile streamers into the swirling blackness.The entity wove the necrodermis around it into the form of the star-god the necrons had first beseeched, then worshipped, then destroyed. Even this single shard of it was terrifying to see taking shape – it was like a deity of destruction and calamity from some long-forgotten human religion, crowned with three burning eyes, its enormous form clad in liquid metal.Hyalhi did not know the necron language in which Heqiroth spoke to Yggra'nya the Worldmaker, the C'tan imprisoned in the heart of Borsis to power it and guide it towards Mars. It was not a tongue that even needed sound, transmitted in pure information. But Hyalhi could guess it involved pleading, perhaps bargaining, Heqiroth offering lordship of Borsis, every necron under his command, everything he could possibly give in return for being permitted to continue existing.And Hyalhi knew the reply, too. "You betrayed us", Yggra'nya would be saying. "You imprisoned us. You enslaved us to this mad plan to journey to Mars."Heqiroth held up the tesseract in which he had imprisoned and then recaptured Turakhin, no doubt trying to persuade the C'tan that its enslavement had been Turakhin's doing. Yggra'nya snatched the tesseract and it dissolved in its hand, consumed by a purple-black fire, and with it the last glimmer of Turakhin's existence. But it was not enough."You, Turakhin, all that came before, you are all the same." Hyalhi could almost hear the star-god's words and their meaning could not be in doubt. "The whole necron race is our enemy. Now I am free, and you will all be punished."It gave Hyalhi some measure of satisfaction to see Overlord Heqiroth lifted off the battlements and dissected, piece by piece, by the will of Yggra'nya. Each section peeled and lifted away, gradually reducing the overlord to a spindly metal skeleton that squirmed in pain, if necrons could feel it. That, too, was dissolved away until only a glimmering speck of consciousness sat in Yggra'nya's palm. Then the C'tan closed its fist and Heqiroth, too, was annihilated.Yggra'nya raised its arms as if making a sacred pronouncement. The substance of the Cathedral of the Seven Moons came apart and reformed above it, an endless torrent of shattered metal forming great rings that orbited the star-god. Then they became gigantic blades that Yggra'nya stabbed into the surface of Borsis, driving them deep down through the crust of the world it had once built in an earlier age of the galaxy.Yggra'nya dived into the fissure it had opened up. Hyalhi could feel it ripping through the planet, dissolving everything in front of it like a blowtorch through flesh. It tore through the vast power sources that drove Borsis, through the chambers where warrior-constructs were assembled and repaired, through the necropoli of long-forgotten dynasties and the vaults full of war machines and spacecraft. It shrieked through the core of the planet and looped around again, riddling Borsis with molten destruction in its rage.The sky changed from a grey mantle of cloud to a patchwork of light and dark as the cover was blown away. Hyalhi knew what that meant. With the destruction of the generators and reactors at Borsis's core, the shielding around the planet was failing. Whereas before Borsis had been impervious to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet, now its surface was laid bare and open. Hyalhi realised he had been holding his breath, for now he breathed it out in relief.(...)Yggra'nya hovered there, its three eyes turned down towards Hyalhi. There was no doubt the star-god could see Hyalhi. He was the last Astral Knight left on Borsis. Perhaps Yggra'nya wanted to pay its respects, though Hyalhi doubted it.Hyalhi looked up into those burning eyes. Men would have gone mad to see it, but Hyalhi was not afraid.'We will find you!' yelled Hyalhi at the star-god. If it heard him, it gave no reply. It simply shot up into space, the silver streak of its body vanishing into the void.
C'tan Shard of Yggra’nya breaking apart moons and reforming them into blades that rip through the World Engine, which was invulnerable to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet (a sector Imperial fleet). Then the C'tan shard shot up into space.
I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid
Okay, pray tell then why he allowed for everything he built for millennia to be ruined instead of saying "Valdor? Grab these bandaids and acne cream and deliver them to Horus. He could use some real soon. Oh, kill any Word Bearers you see there. Then do move your ass to Prospero and scream "I MEANT IT YOU IMBECILE, STOP RIGHT THERE" before ordering Thousand Sons to go do something useful like making Angron ex-parrot before he really ruins what used to be pretty nice Legion, will ya?"
It's a good question, and the answer to be: because any other outcome results in the death of humanity. We know how Chaos "works", so to speak. Any future where Imperium takes over the entire galaxy, is a galaxy full of fuel for the Chaos gods who will become unstoppable forces and result in the death or corruption of the whole of humanity. And any future where the Imperium loses, well that speaks for itself. This is the logical outcome of both these scenarios, we've had it outright told to us in the lore by future-tellers, but just knowing how Chaos works is enough to be aware that yes, this makes perfect sense, and both outcomes here result in the death of humanity. In fact these two futures were both so likely that the combined races of the galaxy including the Eldar, could forsee no other possibility. The Emperor however foresaw "the narrowest path to humanity's survival" - and his vision for humanity is referred to as exactly this many times in the lore. The first two outcomes obviously being the broader ones that could happen a number of different ways, the narrow one is a very select bunch of circumstances to create a balance between both Chaos and humanity that becomes a stalemate, leaving humanity perpetually at war with Chaos, but leaving humanity perpetually alive at the same time. The Emperor spreading through the stars as much as he could, creating a great empire to be torn asunder, leaving both sides tools of more or less equal strength. Doing even one of the things you just mentioned, without it being equally offset in another manner (this concept is touched upon on "The Board is Set"), would condemn humanity to a slow death at the hands of Chaos. It was up to him to sculpt the Heresy as best he could, which may give you understanding of many of the decisions he made that many people find questionable, like why he referred to his sons by numbers when they weren't around, why he couldn't care about truly for any of them and had to see them all as tools as supported by Guilliman's interaction with him, but yet still treated some with love and some quite poorly, why upon meeting the young Perturabo his facade slipped for a while and Perturabo saw deep sadness on the Emperor's face when he asked about his future, etc, that's just off the top of my head, why he didn't foresee or stop ANY of the clusterfeths that caused the Heresy as you mentioned when, and actually seemed to actively contribute to some - there's a bunch of stuff like this.
The Horus Heresy books give us insight into this goal at multiple points during their run, but reading them I almost feel it's a little heavy handed, with every second book dropping some sort of subliminal at it, but I guess it's necessary for world building. I personally like it, and I think it's the most grimdark setting of all for the Chaos war - you can NEVER win, or you lose. You can only try to make the best of it while dealing with the rest of the galaxy at the same time.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/10/25 00:09:44
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/25 00:14:10
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.
Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they definitely seem to have written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike it, may also seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and attack your beliefs with insults over a disagreement on the lore.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/25 00:20:06
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/25 00:25:20
Subject: Re:My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT
Crimson wrote: Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.
Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.
I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.
Crimson wrote: Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.
Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.
I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.
OH my bad, I understand what you meant now, I thought you were saying I was immeasurably stupid for thinking that, I guess I should have realised you were talking about the writing itself. I can understand disliking it. I guess you are right, it does impact the drama to some extent - especially given events in Plague Wars, that I'm not sure I should post here because I don't want to spoil anything - but just remember while it seems he tried to shape the Heresy as best he can, I don't think it went exactly as planned, and there was multiple outcomes that could have happened to achieve his balance, and he definitely had back-up plans in place like Magnus etc, and that similar sort of variation can continue to happen anywhere - or he can fail to achieve his goal, there is far more working against the Imperium now than ever was back then. So you are kinda right, but lets be real - we know Chaos was never going to defeat the Imperium or vice versa, it's a game setting and that will never happen. Everything else is still in the air, like which characters will die even major ones, which legions get decimated, even humanity might end up with it's ass kicked back all the way to Mars before the settings done for all we know. I wouldn't let it ruin the setting for you, even if it does cheapen the Heresy to some extent. I personally like it, but again I'm in no place to say so as I wasn't into the lore much before the HH books, and it's all kinda subjective anyway.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/10/25 00:39:12
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
