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Incubi are one of my favourite units in the game. If they simply made them strength 5, I think it would go a long way for that unit.

Drop Drazhar down to like 80 points and make his aura +1 to wound instead of hit

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Black Legion and Iron Warriors are very powerful with fearless cultists, VotLW and Tide of Traitors. The three dexes keep each other at the top tables, CSM is probably in the middle of them.

I 'd like to point out, as has been said, bypassing the rule of three for DP's aswell as spamming Cultists, whilest strong is still questionable design at best.

Yeah those 2 units are great, great enough to carry with other CSM's with heavy hitters that they can field (cough DG) but not on their own.(Kinda the problem with all factions that can soup, delegating heavy hitters Cp generation and etc. too outside Dexes, meanwhile the base armies get worse for it.)

I think Incubi are fine for what they are meant to. They are efficient can openers on Marines and similar.

The problem is
A) MEQ are not relevant in the meta, so this isn't something a list needs to prioritise.
B) You have better options to achieve this if it mattered anyway. Could also be summed up as "can't turn 1 assault, may not even manage a turn 2 assault, therefore have problems." There are a fair number of units scattered across the game who have the same issue. You can make them cheaper but that doesn't change the fundamentals. (And if you make them so cheap they are capable against hordes/can just jog across the table being shot, they are going to completely wreck Marines/equivalents).

People seem to dislike them but I feel Hellions are on the tipping point too. Their offensive power is good - they are just fragile. If they were much cheaper it would start to get silly.

The main thing I'm not clear on is if they are even going to bother trying to fix Incubi, Beasts, Mandrakes, and to a lesser extent, Hellions. Some could maybe be manageable with a simple point decrease (Hellions/Mandrakes), but Incubi and Beasts need something else probably.

They will at best apply some price changes, but fundamental changes to individual unitt will not be applied, and some of these need some fundamental changes to make them viable. At best they can try to make them an equal choice to another, but that might result in weird point reductions where an Incubi will cost nearly the same as a wych and so on. I really doubt that will happen.

Rule changes I imagine they will address army-wide -1 to hit.

Overall my greatest fear is that they will overnerf things.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

People seem to dislike them but I feel Hellions are on the tipping point too. Their offensive power is good - they are just fragile. If they were much cheaper it would start to get silly.

Glasscannons tend to be a problem in an igougo systems. If you have nothing but glasscannons and you go second then most of your units will be lost to a stiff breeze before you get to return fire. This is why glasscannons with survivability tend to be favored such as Shining Spears with their 4+ invuln and Ravagers with dissies over scourges.

Hellions suffer from this. Sure, if you get to do first and get them where you need them then they are going to provide some needed destruction. If you go second they might not get to do much.

Incubi aren't bad. For their cost they are pretty great BUT as pointed out - their roll is not needed.

However - they can be useful if trying to fill out a Kabal brigade. Not sure a DE brigade is high on anyones radar but what it comes down to is "mandrakes or Incubi". Nether is a bad unit. I prefer the incubi because 5 incubi in a venom just seems sacrier than 9 mandrakes.

Then in the fast attack section it is basically scourge all day.

At 2k this is way too limiting of a build. However at 2500+ it can be useful. Obviously not competitive.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Incubi aren't bad. For their cost they are pretty great BUT as pointed out - their roll is not needed.

However - they can be useful if trying to fill out a Kabal brigade. Not sure a DE brigade is high on anyones radar but what it comes down to is "mandrakes or Incubi". Nether is a bad unit. I prefer the incubi because 5 incubi in a venom just seems sacrier than 9 mandrakes.

Then in the fast attack section it is basically scourge all day.

At 2k this is way too limiting of a build. However at 2500+ it can be useful. Obviously not competitive.

I've sort of written off Drukari brigades, they really aren't even a thing in my book, probably because my primary detatchment is usually Cult, and when I use Kabal I don't use Ravagers. I almost never use Elites except Lahmians, and there just aren't enough options in HS. Symptom of having a fractured Codex, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make though.



That asside, I disagree about Incubi. Even if MEQ was still the gold standard, would people really take them rather than shooting options or other close combat options you get from Coven or Cults? I wouldn't, there are numerous better options to get the job done.

Case in point Banshees, moderately competitive, fill the same theoretical role as Incubi. Except Banshees don't get Overwatched, can be Quickened to get stuck in turn 1, etc. Incubi get some weak morale thing, and that's it, nothing that actually helps with their 2 issues of actually getting into combat and survivability.
Another example, Would most DE players rather have Incubi? Or and equivalent point cost of Wyches. At least Wyches have drugs and Shardnets to help with the functionality of the army, and Wyches aren't even considered to be top tier options in the Codex, they're good, but not overly so. Incubi just don't synergize with anything. With the way they are currently written they would have to come down 4-6ppm to really be considered on the same level as other CC options we have.

Hellions are in a tough spot. I want to love them. The real issue I think is that there is just no good way to deploy them. Their footprint is huge so they are really hard to hide from an Alpha Strike, and Deep Striking them just doesn't get you much production. They are just a little too expensive for a unit that has a very high chance of being shot off the board by crap shooting (lasguns, bolters etc).

Looted Wagons, Karts, and Battle Fortresses apparently.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

Looted Wagons, Karts, and Battle Fortresses apparently.

That's very cool, except I'm at least 90% sure it'll be Open Play only like the Land Raider rules last year.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Incubi aren't bad. For their cost they are pretty great BUT as pointed out - their roll is not needed.

However - they can be useful if trying to fill out a Kabal brigade. Not sure a DE brigade is high on anyones radar but what it comes down to is "mandrakes or Incubi". Nether is a bad unit. I prefer the incubi because 5 incubi in a venom just seems sacrier than 9 mandrakes.

Then in the fast attack section it is basically scourge all day.

At 2k this is way too limiting of a build. However at 2500+ it can be useful. Obviously not competitive.

I've sort of written off Drukari brigades, they really aren't even a thing in my book, probably because my primary detatchment is usually Cult, and when I use Kabal I don't use Ravagers. I almost never use Elites except Lahmians, and there just aren't enough options in HS. Symptom of having a fractured Codex, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make though.



That asside, I disagree about Incubi. Even if MEQ was still the gold standard, would people really take them rather than shooting options or other close combat options you get from Coven or Cults? I wouldn't, there are numerous better options to get the job done.

Case in point Banshees, moderately competitive, fill the same theoretical role as Incubi. Except Banshees don't get Overwatched, can be Quickened to get stuck in turn 1, etc. Incubi get some weak morale thing, and that's it, nothing that actually helps with their 2 issues of actually getting into combat and survivability.
Another example, Would most DE players rather have Incubi? Or and equivalent point cost of Wyches. At least Wyches have drugs and Shardnets to help with the functionality of the army, and Wyches aren't even considered to be top tier options in the Codex, they're good, but not overly so. Incubi just don't synergize with anything. With the way they are currently written they would have to come down 4-6ppm to really be considered on the same level as other CC options we have.

Hellions are in a tough spot. I want to love them. The real issue I think is that there is just no good way to deploy them. Their footprint is huge so they are really hard to hide from an Alpha Strike, and Deep Striking them just doesn't get you much production. They are just a little too expensive for a unit that has a very high chance of being shot off the board by crap shooting (lasguns, bolters etc).

Yeah - Incubi do need a price cut. Along with most eldar aspect warriors. Actually when you compare them to a harlequin troope it is quite pathetic.
For +3 points a player gets +1M, +1A, a 4++ save, and a shooting attack, the ability to move over terrain without penalty, not to mention the awesome ability to fall back and charge and + 1 more attack on the charge for the auto include masque trait (incubi for some reason do not benefit from army traits) they do get a 6+++ though.

^Really if that player is gonna be 19 points (undercosted perhaps) An Incubi can't be more than 13 points lol.

Being more generalist..

I expect some point changes. The real question is.. will some things get a point decrease? If they continue just raising points for over performers it kind of sucks, as I’d sure like to see the carrot in play also, not just the stick.

Rewriting stuff they have already put out. I expect that you’re going to see a big section announcing the rules made permeant from the FAQ in this release.

I wish they would do some innovation stuff. Reprint and make official some rules for some of the forgeworld stuff. Announce an Organized Play feature. Update 30K to 40K 8th Edition rules. Introduce the Official Army builder app, and tell people points will be changed in it on a bi-annual basis

Reemule wrote:
Being more generalist..

I expect some point changes. The real question is.. will some things get a point decrease? If they continue just raising points for over performers it kind of sucks, as I’d sure like to see the carrot in play also, not just the stick.

Rewriting stuff they have already put out. I expect that you’re going to see a big section announcing the rules made permeant from the FAQ in this release.

I wish they would do some innovation stuff. Reprint and make official some rules for some of the forgeworld stuff. Announce an Organized Play feature. Update 30K to 40K 8th Edition rules. Introduce the Official Army builder app, and tell people points will be changed in it on a bi-annual basis

The Forge World rules are in the FW indices. You can buy them digitally via the iTunes store and those get updated every time they make changes.

Reemule wrote:
Being more generalist..

I expect some point changes. The real question is.. will some things get a point decrease? If they continue just raising points for over performers it kind of sucks, as I’d sure like to see the carrot in play also, not just the stick.

Rewriting stuff they have already put out. I expect that you’re going to see a big section announcing the rules made permeant from the FAQ in this release.

I wish they would do some innovation stuff. Reprint and make official some rules for some of the forgeworld stuff. Announce an Organized Play feature. Update 30K to 40K 8th Edition rules. Introduce the Official Army builder app, and tell people points will be changed in it on a bi-annual basis

Last CA had a lot of point decreases.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah - Incubi do need a price cut. Along with most eldar aspect warriors. Actually when you compare them to a harlequin troope it is quite pathetic.
For +3 points a player gets +1M, +1A, a 4++ save, and a shooting attack, the ability to move over terrain without penalty, not to mention the awesome ability to fall back and charge and + 1 more attack on the charge for the auto include masque trait (incubi for some reason do not benefit from army traits) they do get a 6+++ though.

^Really if that player is gonna be 19 points (undercosted perhaps) An Incubi can't be more than 13 points lol.

Which Masque is auto include? Frozen Stars? I've only ever used Soaring Spite or Silent Shroud to be honest.


I'm also hoping they 'use the carrot' more than just nerfing OP stuff. I can imagine when trying to 'balance' things it could be easy to focus in on the stuff that needs point increases because we see it all the time, rather than considering all the other stuff that rarely gets play.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah - Incubi do need a price cut. Along with most eldar aspect warriors. Actually when you compare them to a harlequin troope it is quite pathetic.
For +3 points a player gets +1M, +1A, a 4++ save, and a shooting attack, the ability to move over terrain without penalty, not to mention the awesome ability to fall back and charge and + 1 more attack on the charge for the auto include masque trait (incubi for some reason do not benefit from army traits) they do get a 6+++ though.

^Really if that player is gonna be 19 points (undercosted perhaps) An Incubi can't be more than 13 points lol.

Which Masque is auto include? Frozen Stars? I've only ever used Soaring Spite or Silent Shroud to be honest.


I'm also hoping they 'use the carrot' more than just nerfing OP stuff. I can imagine when trying to 'balance' things it could be easy to focus in on the stuff that needs point increases because we see it all the time, rather than considering all the other stuff that rarely gets play.

I think it's frozen stars - the +1 attack on the charge trait (I'd call this auto include in any harlequin list). Soaring spite is probably next best - advance and shoot pistols is really nice.

We shall see - quins already took a big nerf to their flip belts. I really doubt there are going to be as many changes as their should be. Probably like 10 units points go up 5-6 go down. Some new beta rule. That will be the end of it.

Tyel wrote:
I think transports just need to be re-imagined.

1. Make them cheaper.
2. Make them more fragile as a result.
3. Let units jump out of them after the Transport moved not before and then psychic/shoot/assault.

I'd say a Rhino should go back to being about 35 points - but in exchange it should probably only have 5~ wounds. Maybe this would be too much of a death trap (those 1/6 casualties do add up) but you can't price 10 wounds at T7/3+ save at low enough points to be attractive.

Then again I can see the argument against this - because say Khorne Berzerkers etc would get 12" from the Rhino, 3" jump out, and then only need an 9" charge to cover 24" in the first turn.

Rhino's need there fire points back. The reason you took them was one they were cheap and two you could bring some of your marines fire power to bear while being immune from getting shot back at. Now a rhino is expensive, has little of it's own fire power and your guys aren't doing anything while in it.

Meh. I think rhinos are fine. Two combibolters puts out a healthy number of shots. Drop them 5 or so points to be a little more competitive.

People just need to nut up and commit to them instead of half assing it.

Rhinos will never ever ever ever be under 60 to 65 points, so is 50 points really going to break you?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Meh. I think rhinos are fine. Two combibolters puts out a healthy number of shots. Drop them 5 or so points to be a little more competitive.

People just need to nut up and commit to them instead of half assing it.

Rhinos will never ever ever ever be under 60 to 65 points, so is 50 points really going to break you?

Love taps like that do not make unplayable units playable.

Well for some armies every point counts. In fact, why can't rhinos have a different cost for armies that have units that cost a lot more points as balance. It is not like any other army model can get in to lets say a GK transport.

What do you mean by full commiting a rhino? They can't do anything else then drive around.

Karol wrote:
Well for some armies every point counts. In fact, why can't rhinos have a different cost for armies that have units that cost a lot more points as balance. It is not like any other army model can get in to lets say a GK transport.

What do you mean by full commiting a rhino? They can't do anything else then drive around.

This is one thing from the past I don't want to see. Absent additional rules that add a lot of value to a unit I don't want to see the bad old days of the same unit having different point costs between books.

Daedalus81 wrote:Meh. I think rhinos are fine. Two combibolters puts out a healthy number of shots. Drop them 5 or so points to be a little more competitive.

People just need to nut up and commit to them instead of half assing it.

Rhinos will never ever ever ever be under 60 to 65 points, so is 50 points really going to break you?

Rhinos kind of suffer three main issues for marines in competitive play that seriously ruin their worth, and it really isn't the unit's fault.

1. There's often no reason to ever re-embark, because one turn of losing your shooting is already painful enough for an elite army that doesn't have the durability to waste offensive output
2. Marines don't really have much that's worth transporting and protecting that wouldn't just be better off with the points spent on more bodies that can contribute from the first turn
3. The most important issue - marines are tied to their auras and as such there's not much benefit in giving them extra movement since they'll just outpace the aura unless you want to also transport that character, which disables the aura

That makes them one time use units that severely hamper your army's offensive output when used as transports and have very limited (though somewhat fun, I think) tactical benefits after dropping off its cargo. Not to mention you probably could have used a different unit altogether to secure that part of the board, one who's efficiency at that role is better than giving a foot slogging unit another 18.5" of movement on average in exchange for not shooting, and if there's a character involved, not providing an aura.

Being able to disembark after moving as long as the unit began embarked, at the cost of that unit's movement, would solve all 3. Perhaps too strong a rule, though. Firepoints coming back would be a good change.

So they talked about looted wagons in CA today. So does that mean announcement on Sunday, pre-order following Saturday, release on the 17th?

Honestly pulling that out of thin air, but I'd like it to be true

 fraser1191 wrote:
So they talked about looted wagons in CA today. So does that mean announcement on Sunday, pre-order following Saturday, release on the 17th?

Honestly pulling that out of thin air, but I'd like it to be true

CA is supposed to be in December.
I think its just a teaser and a closing article for Orktober.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So they talked about looted wagons in CA today. So does that mean announcement on Sunday, pre-order following Saturday, release on the 17th?

Honestly pulling that out of thin air, but I'd like it to be true

CA is supposed to be in December.
I think its just a teaser and a closing article for Orktober.

Mm yeah, last year's pre order was the last week of November. Either way I'll have it long before I start my campaign

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It is a real shame that the actual CSM models are as weak as they are... Chaos Raptors are some of my favorite models in the whole line and they're just... well they're not good, that's for sure.

That's because GW still isn't treating the army like it's a bunch of Elites. In my ideal system, Chosen would be the baseline troop and Cultists would be able to stop your Infantry, Bikes, and Helbrutes from being shot like though they were Characters.

a 10%-20% points reductions across the board for necrons. Maybe even a slight buff to Tesla Destructors, and Quantum Shielding added to flyers.

That's pretty much my only gripes with the army, overcosted as hell and no real reason to take any other vehicle other than DDA.

DudleyGrim wrote:
a 10%-20% points reductions across the board for necrons. Maybe even a slight buff to Tesla Destructors, and Quantum Shielding added to flyers.

That's pretty much my only gripes with the army, overcosted as hell and no real reason to take any other vehicle other than DDA.

I'd rather Reanimation just be a FnP save, and QS treat all weapons as -1 to wound, or ignore rend, or something.

Making them cheaper wont fix their broken rules, they need their basic army rules re-written

Even if it was the most sensible possible solution RP will never be a 5+ FNP. That is quite specifically a Death Guard thing in 8th. I'm pretty sure everyone else with a similar rule is operating on a 6+ for this very reason.

It acts as a FnP now just later in the round, its clunky, annoying, and not working. Give it a FnP rule, keep them same cost, they are more costly b.c of the FnP rule, they are freaking 12ppm troops lol

IH marines should be t4 5+++. They are damn cyborgs. DG should not have a monopoly on 5+++

I think it's worth pursuing a world where all the main factions are mechanically distinct and have something that makes them truly unique from any of their competitors. I'm just as dissatisfied with RP as you are, but I would rather it be changed into something new than for Death Guard and Necrons to just be different aesthetic flavors of the exact same variety of hard-to-kill.