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 Brutus_Apex wrote:


I expect DE to get nerfed into the ground

Can you elaborate? I'm a 5th edition Drukhari player with no models left. I'm looking at 8th edition. I've been warned not to buy models until after Chapter Approved because whatever army list I create may get drastically changed. I'd like to know what people think may get changed and why.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:


I expect DE to get nerfed into the ground

Can you elaborate? I'm a 5th edition Drukhari player with no models left. I'm looking at 8th edition. I've been warned not to buy models until after Chapter Approved because whatever army list I create may get drastically changed. I'd like to know what people think may get changed and why.

In theory, grotesque, disintegrator cannons, talos and blasters will be hit with the nerf bat. Most likely via points increase. Possible rework of prophet of flesh. But who knows what GW will actually do, they might just let it go and 'monitor' them for spring FAQ.

Disintegrator cannons are Assault 3, S5, ap - 3, 2D oh and 36"

All for the low cost of 15 pts

This gun basically makes marines moot

 fraser1191 wrote:
Disintegrator cannons are Assault 3, S5, ap - 3, 2D oh and 36"

All for the low cost of 15 pts

This gun basically makes marines moot

It hurts Primaris and characters more than your regular Marines due to the biggest point of it being the D2. I mean why pay so much for 2 wounds when a gun that's cheaper than you can drop you in a single round?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Disintegrator cannons are Assault 3, S5, ap - 3, 2D oh and 36"

All for the low cost of 15 pts

This gun basically makes marines moot

It hurts Primaris and characters more than your regular Marines due to the biggest point of it being the D2. I mean why pay so much for 2 wounds when a gun that's cheaper than you can drop you in a single round?

Right?

I stand by my statement that Primaris were designed for 7th. They would have been devastating and probably worth 20 ppm like when they came out

 fraser1191 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Disintegrator cannons are Assault 3, S5, ap - 3, 2D oh and 36"

All for the low cost of 15 pts

This gun basically makes marines moot

It hurts Primaris and characters more than your regular Marines due to the biggest point of it being the D2. I mean why pay so much for 2 wounds when a gun that's cheaper than you can drop you in a single round?

Right?

I stand by my statement that Primaris were designed for 7th. They would have been devastating and probably worth 20 ppm like when they came out

I can believe it. At the very least they were playtested first in 7th and then adjusted/released in 8th.

The extra wound would have gone further in 7th - but it doesn't stop Intercessors from having a crap gun for their points.

A 27 point Scatbike says hi.

Tyel wrote:
The extra wound would have gone further in 7th - but it doesn't stop Intercessors from having a crap gun for their points.

A 27 point Scatbike says hi.

The only crap gun the Intercessors have access to is the Stalker due to being Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 2 or Rapid 1. Marines in general, due to their lower durability this edition, need a points adjustment or a special rule to fix their durability.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only crap gun the Intercessors have access to is the Stalker due to being Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 2 or Rapid 1. Marines in general, due to their lower durability this edition, need a points adjustment or a special rule to fix their durability.

Not really convinced.

A Gauss flayer isn't exactly great on a Necron Warrior - never mind on a model costing 50% more. Even allowing for a slightly longer rapid fire range.
The assault version offers a slightly better return than a tactical marine with bolter outside 12" - but a considerably inferior return inside 12". Which given the tactical marine's with bolter does about half the damage of competitive infantry guns (and is some of the worst shooting in the game for its points outside 12") isn't exactly good.

This might be okay if they were vaguely competent in close combat - so they had a 1-2 punch. Except for that many points they are pretty terrible at that too (better than marines, but again, marines are terrible).

In light of Ork gripes compare an intercessor to 2.6-2.7 shoota boys (which are generally not considered great). You are more vulnerable to small arms - but on the other hand you can't get nuked by high AP D2 weapons.
In exchange you get over 50% (inside 18" - which is fairly common in the current game) more damage from shooting than the assault version - and nearly 3 times the melee punch, even before you get the buff for being in a squad of 20.

Marine whinging has been done to death - but right now I don't think Tacticals are worth more than 10-11, and basic Primaris no more than 14-15.

Intercessors have 30" range bolt rifles with a -1 standard for 0 points. It costs 1 point to take a 24" 0AP Assault 2 version and 2 points for the 36" -2AP Heavy 1 version.

Basically, the gun itself on an Intercessor isn't the problem, it's the Intercessor who is the problem.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Disintegrator cannons are Assault 3, S5, ap - 3, 2D oh and 36"

All for the low cost of 15 pts

This gun basically makes marines moot

It also invalidates dark lances from dark eldar so internal balance is off. Against say T8 lance goes only little bit further while costing more and is less flexible. There's basically no reason to not take them.

Warriors and venoms could also see price up.

Intercessors could go to 16-17 and we likely wouldn't get complaints.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Intercessors could go to 16-17 and we likely wouldn't get complaints.

Well if kill team is anything to base off of intercessors will be 15 and Tacs will be 12. Reivers will be 16 too so there's that, not that people are clamoring to use reivers

Can you elaborate? I'm a 5th edition Drukhari player with no models left. I'm looking at 8th edition. I've been warned not to buy models until after Chapter Approved because whatever army list I create may get drastically changed. I'd like to know what people think may get changed and why.

I'm in the same boat to be honest. I haven't played DE since 5th and I really want to start my army up again, but I've learned the hard way with 8th ed. Don't buy anything until after Chapter Approved comes out, otherwise you're just throwing money at GW while they invalidate your army.

Basically what others have said.

Disintegrators are too good. Talos, Grotesques are fairly under costed. You could also make a case for warriors being under costed. Prophets of Flesh is really powerful for a free buff. It might change to re-roll 1's on their invulnerable saves instead of flat +1.

Thats on top of the 3 nerfs they received with the FAQ including fething over flying assault units, making Agents of Vect 4 CP and nerfing Labyrinthian Cunning.

Dark Eldar I expect:

Disintegrators will probably go up 5 points. They will either be the same cost as Dark Lances or slightly more expensive.

I am not sure about Grotesques going that much. Maybe a point or two. The problem lies with Prophets of Flesh, not the unit.

Talos might also see a slight point increase. Maybe 10 points or so. Again, the problem lies with Prophets of Flesh 4++ save.

I don't see Blasters going up. Blasters are good but the DE lists winning are using Covens for the most part with Triple Ravagers, not blasters en masse.

Ravagers will probably go up a little if they don't point dissies accordingly.

If they don't repoint the Ravager my guess is that Scourges might go down in price just to make them an equal alternative to Ravagers.

Hellions recosted to a lower pricetag.

Venoms will stay the same.

My hope is also that Drazhar goes down a little bit along with Incubi.

My expectation is that people have way too high expectations for what's going to be changed. Expecting nearly the entire game to be recosted is folly.

Tyranids have like 1/2 the dex unplayably bad for example, but I expect I'll be lucky to see a single points cost adjustment, Tyranids just aren't going to be on GW's radar.

Expect changes to the most debated things, e.g. GK and some Marine units on side of the spectrum, and also Ynnari, DE, Knights, and Guard on the other side, and then throw in a handful of other things that may or may not have even been an issue but did come up during GW's playing sessions.

 SHUPPET wrote:
My expectation is that people have way too high expectations for what's going to be changed. Expecting nearly the entire game to be recosted is folly.

Tyranids have like 1/2 the dex unplayably bad for example, but I expect I'll be lucky to see a single points cost adjustment, Tyranids just aren't going to be on GW's roster.

Expect changes to the most debated things, e.g. GK and some Marine units on side of the spectrum, and also Ynnari, DE, Knights, and Guard on the other side.

Queue rage for when people inevitably don't get everything they were looking for.

I agree, I think only the most egregious (and things like already mediocre FW index units that no one complained about) will get nerfed, and the rest will stay exactly the same.

In my experience, GW destroys everything I love in the lore and on the table. I have no faith that one of the several armies that I play will remain viable. I'm fairly certain it will be crushed, just like all my other armies.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
My expectation is that people have way too high expectations for what's going to be changed. Expecting nearly the entire game to be recosted is folly.

Tyranids have like 1/2 the dex unplayably bad for example, but I expect I'll be lucky to see a single points cost adjustment, Tyranids just aren't going to be on GW's roster.

Expect changes to the most debated things, e.g. GK and some Marine units on side of the spectrum, and also Ynnari, DE, Knights, and Guard on the other side.

Queue rage for when people inevitably don't get everything they were looking for.

I'm going to remember this post and link it to the predictable ragers who do just that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
In my experience, GW destroys everything I love in the lore and on the table. I have no faith that one of the several armies that I play will remain viable. I'm fairly certain it will be crushed, just like all my other armies.

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Not Online!!! wrote:

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Black Legion and Iron Warriors are very powerful with fearless cultists, VotLW and Tide of Traitors. The three dexes keep each other at the top tables, CSM is probably in the middle of them.

CSM are the best they've been in a very long while. However, I consider it a failure if the two main units in the codex aren't ever taken, namely actual chaos marines and terminators. If those aren't the focal point of a Marine army, why are you even playing Marines at all?

That being said, I've been waiting roughly 15 years for new models. So theres that.

Same goes for Sisters of Battle, Black Templars.

Grey Knights are just a huge joke.

Dark Eldar fans had do wait about 12 or so years for a wonderful update, only to be smacked down again in 6th and 7th with possibly the most abysmally bad codex ever written.

Horus Heresy, almost entirely unsupported currently. Although I understand that there are other factors there, including the untimely death of Alan Merritt.

Of course this all pales in comparison to the ultimate betrayal. The death of Warhammer Fantasy, for which I will never forgive them.

CSM needs a giant overhaul. We need to remove the other two god Legions (Children and Eaters) and make them feel like a real elite army.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Black Legion and Iron Warriors are very powerful with fearless cultists, VotLW and Tide of Traitors. The three dexes keep each other at the top tables, CSM is probably in the middle of them.

That to me isn't a CSM army. I'm hopeful for the day where a CSM army has actual viable CSM (part of the marine broader marine issue which has been discussed to death already)

It is a real shame that the actual CSM models are as weak as they are... Chaos Raptors are some of my favorite models in the whole line and they're just... well they're not good, that's for sure.

Brutus_Apex wrote:CSM have are the best they've been in a very long while. However, I consider it a failure if the two main units in the codex aren't ever taken, namely actual chaos marines and terminators. If those aren't the focal point of a Marine army, why are you even playing Marines at all?

That being said, I've been waiting roughly 15 years for new models. So theres that.

Same goes for Sisters of Battle, Black Templars.

Grey Knights are just a huge joke.

Dark Eldar fans had do wait about 12 or so years for a wonderful update, only to be smacked down again in 6th and 7th with possibly the most abysmally bad codex ever written.

Horus Heresy, almost entirely unsupported currently. Although I understand that there are other factors there, including the untimely death of Alan Merritt.

Of course this all pales in comparison to the ultimate betrayal. The death of Warhammer Fantasy, for which I will never forgive them.

Phew, you've really had a bad run of luck with those armies. Sisters aren't too bad at least!

NurglesR0T wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Black Legion and Iron Warriors are very powerful with fearless cultists, VotLW and Tide of Traitors. The three dexes keep each other at the top tables, CSM is probably in the middle of them.

That to me isn't a CSM army. I'm hopeful for the day where a CSM army has actual viable CSM (part of the marine broader marine issue which has been discussed to death already)

Very few top armies get to pick and choose their iconic units. There is still a few good power armor units at least. You said that they were carried by Tsons and DG however, and that's a two way thing.

 SHUPPET wrote:

NurglesR0T wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What other armies? You have CSM in your profile picture at the very least, and thats one of the top dexes in the game right now.

Regular csm? And here i thought death guard and TS were the ones keeping them in the top tables.
Heck alpha legion went from hero to zero rulewise.

Black Legion and Iron Warriors are very powerful with fearless cultists, VotLW and Tide of Traitors. The three dexes keep each other at the top tables, CSM is probably in the middle of them.

That to me isn't a CSM army. I'm hopeful for the day where a CSM army has actual viable CSM (part of the marine broader marine issue which has been discussed to death already)

Very few top armies get to pick and choose their iconic units. There is still a few good power armor units at least. You said that they were carried by Tsons and DG however, and that's a two way thing.

Agreed on the first point, very few armies do indeed get little choice in what is iconic and fluffy and what actually works in the game.

Second point, not me that made suggestion!

True, mistook you for the other poster!

 Eldarsif wrote:
Dark Eldar I expect:

Disintegrators will probably go up 5 points. They will either be the same cost as Dark Lances or slightly more expensive.

I am not sure about Grotesques going that much. Maybe a point or two. The problem lies with Prophets of Flesh, not the unit.

Talos might also see a slight point increase. Maybe 10 points or so. Again, the problem lies with Prophets of Flesh 4++ save.

I don't see Blasters going up. Blasters are good but the DE lists winning are using Covens for the most part with Triple Ravagers, not blasters en masse.

Ravagers will probably go up a little if they don't point dissies accordingly.

If they don't repoint the Ravager my guess is that Scourges might go down in price just to make them an equal alternative to Ravagers.

Hellions recosted to a lower pricetag.

Venoms will stay the same.

My hope is also that Drazhar goes down a little bit along with Incubi.

This seems about right. I could see both Ravagers and Dissies going up in price to be honest. In most Eldar soup lists you always see the exact same thing, an Archon, 3 Dissie Ravagers, maybe a flier, Black Heart Kabal.

I on top of the Agents of Vect price increase at some point they could get rid of the whole 6+++ to vehicles thing too, have it just affect units that normally get PfP. As is there are still too many reasons to pick Black Heart over any other Kabal.

The main thing I'm not clear on is if they are even going to bother trying to fix Incubi, Beasts, Mandrakes, and to a lesser extent, Hellions. Some could maybe be manageable with a simple point decrease (Hellions/Mandrakes), but Incubi and Beasts need something else probably.


On the Harlequin side my biggest concern is that they might nerf Skyweavers too much and basically invalidate Harlequins as a mono-viable force in the process. The Flip Belt nerf hurt on that front already, weaken Skyweavers too much and really the main thing they'd have left would be Soaring Spite fusion drive-by Troupes. I guess that's one big issue with only having one option per force org slot, nerf one unit and the whole army could go down the toilet.
Haywire is sort of in a weird position right now, it's value got artificially inflated when Knights started showing up in every Imperial list. If GSC and Orks bring hordes into a dominant role in the meta, then Haywire (and subsequently Skyweavers) value drops back down again.