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I guess they could add rules for different brotherhoods for Grey Knights, but am not sure about it. If the tsons smite was kept normal, because of how bad the GK baby smite was, one should expect that the GK would be put up to date in some rules fix. 2 FAQs and a CA, and it did not happen. So I guess GK are an exeption to all rules.

Stuff like rules for a scout or all ASsault company would be interesting though. If they made the pre requisits to playing those sub lists very high in points, to an almost pre build army level, they could give them both interesting and balanced rules, without worrying that a sudden buff to assault marines or bikers is going to break the game.

Karol wrote:
I guess they could add rules for different brotherhoods for Grey Knights, but am not sure about it. If the tsons smite was kept normal, because of how bad the GK baby smite was, one should expect that the GK would be put up to date in some rules fix. 2 FAQs and a CA, and it did not happen. So I guess GK are an exeption to all rules.

Stuff like rules for a scout or all ASsault company would be interesting though. If they made the pre requisits to playing those sub lists very high in points, to an almost pre build army level, they could give them both interesting and balanced rules, without worrying that a sudden buff to assault marines or bikers is going to break the game.

You can do an all Scout Army, since they're usually lead by regular Captains anyways. I'd argue thematically Reivers could slip into the mix since they use similar skill sets. Plus Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Storms. All you're missing as a Heavy Support choice to make it to a Brigade level.

All Assault Marines would require you to take the less good FA focused detachment as your main army core. Plus Assault Marines aren't that good at anything beyond being mobile infantry.

As for the GK lack of changes, CA 2017 was likely sent to the prinerts three months before we got it in December, meaning it was written only 5 months into the edition at the most. Not enough to really address anything.

As for the FAQs, those only changed existing rules for armies outside of adjusting core mechanics for the game. New GK rules don't really fit in there.

Well I was thinking more in line of stuff with models that exist, but used in a different ways. So maybe a mixed scout+ravers lists, where both type of units get the old deep strike? And no I don;t know if it would make a good list. Some sort of terminator phalanx list, where you have to use 4-6 units of termintors, only termintor HQs and models, but get some cool rules to actually make people want to buy those 7 boxs of terminators and play with that army. What if in such an army you would have to take a 50/50 stormshield and shoty terminator mix. but the shoty termintors would get the shield bonus as if they had hammer termintors within a certain, small, range.

A jump pack only or bike only army, for marines/eldar or orcs. Some sort of high court for necrons, where the regular guards are necron lords in stats. Or a necron lists based around multiple barrages and other fast moving stuff, and not just spaming destroyers.

Scouts don't deep strike, they have a special deployment instead.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Scouts don't deep strike, they have a special deployment instead.

I know that. But a CA or some other sort of "book with sub section army builds" could let them do that. a specific organisation chart that lets say makes someone take 4 units of scouts and 4 units of ravers. They gain the deep strike rules, again no idea if that would help. It could go even further, in army list shaping by adding more obligatory units to the detachment. Maybe each scout unit has to come with a speeder, maybe 2 or more scout biker units have to be taken. And all of those could get some extra rule here and there, the units would have rules and points costs based around the codex ones, so any of the extra rules wouldn't create problems for the core game, as they would be linked to the detachment. I think as long as the detachment ended up as a 1500-1700 pts obligatory investment, it could be made more balanced then any codex list. And they could do stuff for other armies too. An eldar aspect warrior army, that is something else then reapers and s spears. Stuff like that.

I disagree. Scouts have a superior deployment option to deep strike and if you were desperate to deep strike instead, drop pods exist. They're not good right now, but they exist

Am I the only one that thinks what you guys are talking about sound exactly like formations?

I really feel like the inquisition are very limited due to only having hq units and a few vanguard units. I feel like a good change for them in chapter approved 2018 would be them being allowed to be plugged into any imperial detachment again. I feel like it is very in line with the fluff and how their characters work and maybe it could make them playable on the tabletop again because right now it’s really not worth sacrificing a whole detachment to field Eisenhorn or Greyfax despite how cool they are

Something I'd like to see (though am not expecting with this CA) is for more dedicated transports to be viable. There are exceptions obviously, but generally they seem to be far too expensive for any value they provide. That may also help some alpha strike problems if infantry are more effectively able to hide.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something I'd like to see (though am not expecting with this CA) is for more dedicated transports to be viable. There are exceptions obviously, but generally they seem to be far too expensive for any value they provide. That may also help some alpha strike problems if infantry are more effectively able to hide.

Agreed, even though Rhinos are "reasonable" at 72 points with a Storm Bolter... I NEVER take them. Because that 72 points is just about 4 missile launchers (which are also "meh")... That 72 points is a Company Ancient or Apothecary and some random gear for a character. I love my Rhinos, and want to feel like taking them isn't a complete waste of points.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something I'd like to see (though am not expecting with this CA) is for more dedicated transports to be viable. There are exceptions obviously, but generally they seem to be far too expensive for any value they provide. That may also help some alpha strike problems if infantry are more effectively able to hide.

Agreed, even though Rhinos are "reasonable" at 72 points with a Storm Bolter... I NEVER take them. Because that 72 points is just about 4 missile launchers (which are also "meh"... That 72 points is a Company Ancient or Apothecary and some random gear for a character. I love my Rhinos, and want to feel like taking them isn't a complete waste of points.

Correct me if i am wrong but most transports from orkz over imperium to chaos suffer from A: beeing groundbound and B: At the same time beeing terribly priced.
I am sorry to say this but a Chaos Rhino or any rhino for that matter is not worth a minor HQ in price. --> this same logic applies to orkz and many melee armies which relied on transports. Transports are dead, those armies will struggle if they don't get a way to get over the distance.
On the other hand a lot of flying transports not only get the flying advantage but for some reason are also cheaper. (Tau in this case are the exception.)
I mean last edition, was a chimera at 55pts (65pts for imperium) really that broken?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something I'd like to see (though am not expecting with this CA) is for more dedicated transports to be viable. There are exceptions obviously, but generally they seem to be far too expensive for any value they provide. That may also help some alpha strike problems if infantry are more effectively able to hide.

Agreed, even though Rhinos are "reasonable" at 72 points with a Storm Bolter... I NEVER take them. Because that 72 points is just about 4 missile launchers (which are also "meh"... That 72 points is a Company Ancient or Apothecary and some random gear for a character. I love my Rhinos, and want to feel like taking them isn't a complete waste of points.

Correct me if i am wrong but most transports from orkz over imperium to chaos suffer from A: beeing groundbound and B: At the same time beeing terribly priced.
I am sorry to say this but a Chaos Rhino or any rhino for that matter is not worth a minor HQ in price. --> this same logic applies to orkz and many melee armies which relied on transports. Transports are dead, those armies will struggle if they don't get a way to get over the distance.
On the other hand a lot of flying transports not only get the flying advantage but for some reason are also cheaper. (Tau in this case are the exception.)
I mean last edition, was a chimera at 55pts (65pts for imperium) really that broken?

Not just the Tau, look at how the Stormraven stacks up against a Land Raider. Sure it's T7, W14 instead of T8, W16, but Airborne and Hard to Hit help offset those, and it can carry 12 Marines and a Dread * instead of 10 Marines and it's 50 points cheaper for roughly the same weapon load on top of that.

If Marines could deploy from a flier after it moves like Guard can do ** then the Stormraven by itself could almost bring Marines up to par.

* GW should really really add "or 10 Primaris marines" to the Stormraven's transport options. Primaris are the same size as a Terminator and not being able to use all the transports is stupid, but the Stormraven fits their fluff/theme better than the others so it's extra dumb that they can't ride in one.

** If there's a list of things that from a thematic standpoint Marines should be able to do and Guard shouldn't jumping out of a flying transport after it moves should be at the very top of the list. Seriously, feth IG.

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Something I'd like to see (though am not expecting with this CA) is for more dedicated transports to be viable. There are exceptions obviously, but generally they seem to be far too expensive for any value they provide. That may also help some alpha strike problems if infantry are more effectively able to hide.

Agreed, even though Rhinos are "reasonable" at 72 points with a Storm Bolter... I NEVER take them. Because that 72 points is just about 4 missile launchers (which are also "meh"... That 72 points is a Company Ancient or Apothecary and some random gear for a character. I love my Rhinos, and want to feel like taking them isn't a complete waste of points.

Correct me if i am wrong but most transports from orkz over imperium to chaos suffer from A: beeing groundbound and B: At the same time beeing terribly priced.
I am sorry to say this but a Chaos Rhino or any rhino for that matter is not worth a minor HQ in price. --> this same logic applies to orkz and many melee armies which relied on transports. Transports are dead, those armies will struggle if they don't get a way to get over the distance.
On the other hand a lot of flying transports not only get the flying advantage but for some reason are also cheaper. (Tau in this case are the exception.)
I mean last edition, was a chimera at 55pts (65pts for imperium) really that broken?

Not just the Tau, look at how the Stormraven stacks up against a Land Raider. Sure it's T7, W14 instead of T8, W16, but Airborne and Hard to Hit help offset those, and it can carry 12 Marines and a Dread * instead of 10 Marines and it's 50 points cheaper for roughly the same weapon load on top of that.

If Marines could deploy from a flier after it moves like Guard can do ** then the Stormraven by itself could almost bring Marines up to par.

* GW should really really add "or 10 Primaris marines" to the Stormraven's transport options. Primaris are the same size as a Terminator and not being able to use all the transports is stupid, but the Stormraven fits their fluff/theme better than the others so it's extra dumb that they can't ride in one.

** If there's a list of things that from a thematic standpoint Marines should be able to do and Guard shouldn't jumping out of a flying transport after it moves should be at the very top of the list. Seriously, feth IG.

Sounds like people are jealous that they don’t have access to the best transport, the Taurox Prime. Militarum Tempestus once again flexes on the marines.

I think transports just need to be re-imagined.

1. Make them cheaper.
2. Make them more fragile as a result.
3. Let units jump out of them after the Transport moved not before and then psychic/shoot/assault.

I'd say a Rhino should go back to being about 35 points - but in exchange it should probably only have 5~ wounds. Maybe this would be too much of a death trap (those 1/6 casualties do add up) but you can't price 10 wounds at T7/3+ save at low enough points to be attractive.

Then again I can see the argument against this - because say Khorne Berzerkers etc would get 12" from the Rhino, 3" jump out, and then only need an 9" charge to cover 24" in the first turn.

I think there are huge issues with transports...

1. Anything can kill a transport now
2. They're still too slow because delivery requires two movement phases, and potentially facing two shooting phases
3. Auras from characters inside transports don't do anything
4. Unlike past editions, you don't often need them to get into range to shoot or assault because you have unit choices that do it better and faster without the transport tax
5. They become super juicy targets if they are also heavily armed, like Land Raiders, Blackstars, Stormravens, and Repulsors. They are always worth killing because it's like potentially 3 birds with one stone. You kill a tank, cause casualties to an important unit, and strand that unit out of position.

Keep it so you cannot embark and disembark in the same turn, but change the rules so that you can disembark before or after the transport moves, but if it's after, the unit that disembarks cannot move (but can still shoot/charge).

Alternatively, many more flying gunship transports need the grav chute insertion rule from the Valkyries.

They should also all get a stratagem or a way to be able to pop smoke and shoot in the same turn.

They definitely need to stop being so expensive, especially the gunboats.

There needs to be a case for some assault transports that can still fire after getting into the thick of it.

Tyel wrote:
I think transports just need to be re-imagined.

1. Make them cheaper.
2. Make them more fragile as a result.
3. Let units jump out of them after the Transport moved not before and then psychic/shoot/assault.

I'd say a Rhino should go back to being about 35 points - but in exchange it should probably only have 5~ wounds. Maybe this would be too much of a death trap (those 1/6 casualties do add up) but you can't price 10 wounds at T7/3+ save at low enough points to be attractive.

Then again I can see the argument against this - because say Khorne Berzerkers etc would get 12" from the Rhino, 3" jump out, and then only need an 9" charge to cover 24" in the first turn.

12 + 3.5 + 3 + 6 = 24.5 They don't even need to charge to make 24", which is why you don't need to disembark after move.

If there's a list of things that from a thematic standpoint Marines should be able to do and Guard shouldn't jumping out of a flying transport after it moves should be at the very top of the list. Seriously, feth IG.

Bad attitude.
If someone should have the capability for a Vietnam aircav list then it should be guard.
Spacemarines should have planetary invasion as their specialisation (drop pods, teleporting, etc.)
Problem is atm a sm player needs to sell his left Ball in pts to field them and I as a csm player needs to sell both Balls for a kahibrys or however you pronounce it to have something comparable and to get it from fw.
Did we mention fw resin sucks?

Ork Blood axes "kultur" is flat out better than Ultramarines CT, not that they are the same but they're similar.

I dunno I suppose orks being able to fall back and shoot still at 5 is a little more fair than a marine falling back and still hitting on a 3.

Though I find the ability to fall back and shoot is odd for orks. Is this also the only other time this ability has been given as a CT?

 fraser1191 wrote:
Ork Blood axes "kultur" is flat out better than Ultramarines CT, not that they are the same but they're similar.

I dunno I suppose orks being able to fall back and shoot still at 5 is a little more fair than a marine falling back and still hitting on a 3.

Though I find the ability to fall back and shoot is odd for orks. Is this also the only other time this ability has been given as a CT?

White Scars can fall back and charge. That's about it though.

The Ork one is strictly superior. Hell if it weren't for Orks being bad for several editions we'd have complaints, just like with Imperial Guard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Ork Blood axes "kultur" is flat out better than Ultramarines CT, not that they are the same but they're similar.

I dunno I suppose orks being able to fall back and shoot still at 5 is a little more fair than a marine falling back and still hitting on a 3.

Though I find the ability to fall back and shoot is odd for orks. Is this also the only other time this ability has been given as a CT?

White Scars can fall back and charge. That's about it though.

The Ork one is strictly superior. Hell if it weren't for Orks being bad for several editions we'd have complaints, just like with Imperial Guard.

Yes if you look at earlier tactics they generally had two abilities more or less, such as +1Ld and fall back and shoot. I think some of the Ork kulturs are the first ones to have 3 buffs

I think this is where creep is gonna build up

Is it possible given how much the traits have continued to become more diverse and powerful that perhaps CA will give Word Bearers a trait for the first time in 8th?

Lemondish wrote:
I think there are huge issues with transports...

1. Anything can kill a transport now
2. They're still too slow because delivery requires two movement phases, and potentially facing two shooting phases
3. Auras from characters inside transports don't do anything
4. Unlike past editions, you don't often need them to get into range to shoot or assault because you have unit choices that do it better and faster without the transport tax
5. They become super juicy targets if they are also heavily armed, like Land Raiders, Blackstars, Stormravens, and Repulsors. They are always worth killing because it's like potentially 3 birds with one stone. You kill a tank, cause casualties to an important unit, and strand that unit out of position.

Keep it so you cannot embark and disembark in the same turn, but change the rules so that you can disembark before or after the transport moves, but if it's after, the unit that disembarks cannot move (but can still shoot/charge).

Alternatively, many more flying gunship transports need the grav chute insertion rule from the Valkyries.

They should also all get a stratagem or a way to be able to pop smoke and shoot in the same turn.

They definitely need to stop being so expensive, especially the gunboats.

There needs to be a case for some assault transports that can still fire after getting into the thick of it.

Transports in previous editions died to a single shot from an AT gun - they were fine if you were a Marine player and got as many as you wanted free but but for those who had to pay for them - they were not good.

We have the cover strategm for fist turn which works the same as smoke and shoot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Ork Blood axes "kultur" is flat out better than Ultramarines CT, not that they are the same but they're similar.

I dunno I suppose orks being able to fall back and shoot still at 5 is a little more fair than a marine falling back and still hitting on a 3.

Though I find the ability to fall back and shoot is odd for orks. Is this also the only other time this ability has been given as a CT?

White Scars can fall back and charge. That's about it though.

The Ork one is strictly superior. Hell if it weren't for Orks being bad for several editions we'd have complaints, just like with Imperial Guard.

The Deathskulls is also strictly superior to the Salamander one.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Ork Blood axes "kultur" is flat out better than Ultramarines CT, not that they are the same but they're similar.

I dunno I suppose orks being able to fall back and shoot still at 5 is a little more fair than a marine falling back and still hitting on a 3.

Though I find the ability to fall back and shoot is odd for orks. Is this also the only other time this ability has been given as a CT?

White Scars can fall back and charge. That's about it though.

The Ork one is strictly superior. Hell if it weren't for Orks being bad for several editions we'd have complaints, just like with Imperial Guard.

The Deathskulls is also strictly superior to the Salamander one.

Mmhmm
Salmaders tactic plus when reroll damage rolls then everything gains Objective secured. The 6++ is a little forgivable though lol

Hey, at least we're done with the damned -1 to hit traits.

Tyel wrote:
I think transports just need to be re-imagined.

1. Make them cheaper.
2. Make them more fragile as a result.
3. Let units jump out of them after the Transport moved not before and then psychic/shoot/assault.

I'd say a Rhino should go back to being about 35 points - but in exchange it should probably only have 5~ wounds. Maybe this would be too much of a death trap (those 1/6 casualties do add up) but you can't price 10 wounds at T7/3+ save at low enough points to be attractive.

Then again I can see the argument against this - because say Khorne Berzerkers etc would get 12" from the Rhino, 3" jump out, and then only need an 9" charge to cover 24" in the first turn.

Best way to solve this would probably be to get the Assault Vehicle rule back on expensive stuff like Land Raiders. It prevents CC specialists from getting a cheap boost from a low-tier transport. On the other hand, investing in a big Land Raider should pay off more than it does now.

Lemondish wrote:
I think there are huge issues with transports...

1. Anything can kill a transport now
2. They're still too slow because delivery requires two movement phases, and potentially facing two shooting phases
3. Auras from characters inside transports don't do anything
4. Unlike past editions, you don't often need them to get into range to shoot or assault because you have unit choices that do it better and faster without the transport tax
5. They become super juicy targets if they are also heavily armed, like Land Raiders, Blackstars, Stormravens, and Repulsors. They are always worth killing because it's like potentially 3 birds with one stone. You kill a tank, cause casualties to an important unit, and strand that unit out of position.

My Sisters seems to be doing fine with transport this edition. Give me a little extra protection and a little extra mobility.

I think transports are fine rule wise, only issue with them is the cost.

Tyel wrote:
I think transports just need to be re-imagined.

1. Make them cheaper.
2. Make them more fragile as a result.
3. Let units jump out of them after the Transport moved not before and then psychic/shoot/assault.

I'd say a Rhino should go back to being about 35 points - but in exchange it should probably only have 5~ wounds. Maybe this would be too much of a death trap (those 1/6 casualties do add up) but you can't price 10 wounds at T7/3+ save at low enough points to be attractive.

Then again I can see the argument against this - because say Khorne Berzerkers etc would get 12" from the Rhino, 3" jump out, and then only need an 9" charge to cover 24" in the first turn.

Actually, without changing the way disembarkation works currently, you'd be looking at 12"+3"+6" so 21". It'd be a 3" charge from 24" out. Also, the lowest number of wounds you could possibly give a rhino style transport and have it still be usable is 7. Allowing a D6 damage weapon to pop it instantly would make it largely worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I think transports are fine rule wise, only issue with them is the cost.

I agree for light/medium transports. Land raiders and other heavy tank/transport hybrids need some help though.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I think transports are fine rule wise, only issue with them is the cost.

Drop Pods need a rework of some kind, not just a points drop though. I honestly wouldn't take one even if they were only 50 points.

Also, not all transports need a points drop (*coughwaveserpentcough*), but I agree that most do. Rhinos could stand to get about 10 points cheaper, maybe 15. Tau Devilfish need to come down more like 30 from where they are now.