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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nah, the Deathwatch ones will wound on a 2+ because I want to make you waste time rolling all those saves. You also forgot I use 3 Frag Cannons in a squad. 21 hits is 14 wounds from that at AP-1.

So yeah, have fun rolling all that.

Yea I still just don't see it, I guess. If it's minus one then any 1s and 2s get rerolled and 1s fail after that.

Multiple damage weapons would be annoying, but those don't bring nearly as many shots.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd like to see marines ignoring a point of ap and getting a point of ap on bolt weapons.

Haven't thought about how it scales but I don't really care either

But they can though. They are called Bolt Rifles.
Maybe an addition -1 AP on a 6 to hit, to represent the explosive round damaging armor or good marksmanship or something.

Thats like what 1% of the space marine list? Bolters all bolt weapons including primaris need -1 ap

No they dont.

That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had AP 5 which is the equivalent of 8th editions AP - 1

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

More ap in the game does not help.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

Except AP4 is -1 and AP5 is nothing. I'd almost like to argue that the old AP- should be +1 to the save due to it's weak armour pen.

Martel732 wrote:
More ap in the game does not help.

It would help space marines deal with all targets with 5+ saves

And maybe it only effects targets with 5+ or higher saves (so 5+ or 6+ saves) Anything below and it has no -AP)


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

Except AP4 is -1 and AP5 is nothing. I'd almost like to argue that the old AP- should be +1 to the save due to it's weak armour pen.

Well you would fire your bolters way back into a squad of boys with 6+ and they would be able to throw their normal armor save. They would just die. Compare a current edition bolter vs a previous edition bolter and they would not stack up at all.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had AP 5 which is the equivalent of 8th editions AP - 1

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

Actually AP4 is this edition's equivalent of Ap-1.
But yeah, bolters should have had some sort of armor piercing ability.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

This would be a substantial dramatic increase in anti-infantry firepower. You go from 20 BS3+ Bolter shots killing an average of 5.5 Orks to an average of 10.18, or an average of 5.93 Guardsmen to 9.88 Guardsmen. If applied to all bolt weapons, you'd also run into issues with other armies as well (Sisters, Guard heavy weapons, etc).

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

GW moved the scale, AP-1 starts at what used to be AP4, anythinf AP5/6/- is now AP0.

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

To be fair, bolters have had identical AP to Lasguns for 3 of the game's 5 editions (Lasguns had AP-1 in RT and 2E IIRC).

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

This would be a substantial dramatic increase in anti-infantry firepower. You go from 20 BS3+ Bolter shots killing an average of 5.5 Orks to an average of 10.18, or an average of 5.93 Guardsmen to 9.88 Guardsmen. If applied to all bolt weapons, you'd also run into issues with other armies as well (Sisters, Guard heavy weapons, etc).

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

GW moved the scale, AP-1 starts at what used to be AP4, anythinf AP5/6/- is now AP0.

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

To be fair, bolters have had identical AP to Lasguns for 3 of the game's 5 editions (Lasguns had AP-1 in RT and 2E IIRC).

Would you rather it just ignore the armor altogether like previous editions?

Also I wouldn't care too much about it applying to Sister and Guard bolt weapons, but they don't need it either. They're already offensively capable.

What if bolt weapons gave a reroll to wound if the target has an armor save of 5+ or 6+? Fluff wise that would represent the bolt weapon being more dangerous against lightly armored targets, as the bolt would pierce enough of the armor for the explosion to deal some real damage.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if bolt weapons gave a reroll to wound if the target has an armor save of 5+ or 6+? Fluff wise that would represent the bolt weapon being more dangerous against lightly armored targets, as the bolt would pierce enough of the armor for the explosion to deal some real damage.

I'd prefer to keep it simple and just make bolters explode on 6s.

Just give marines more shots. More shots is the only way under the current rules to increase anti-infantry firepower. Mass lasgun/bolgtun fire is deadly to infantry. The problem is that marines can't field masses of boltguns in a way that's efficient. Unless you count Aggressors, which once in range will murder infantry.

So give them +1 shots, or double fire or something when armed with boltguns (e.g. +1 shots when in half range). But only marines, because any change to boltguns will affect sisters too, and they're already better when armed with them (cuz they're cheaper).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if bolt weapons gave a reroll to wound if the target has an armor save of 5+ or 6+? Fluff wise that would represent the bolt weapon being more dangerous against lightly armored targets, as the bolt would pierce enough of the armor for the explosion to deal some real damage.

I'd prefer to keep it simple and just make bolters explode on 6s.

For extra hits though? Tesla already has that rule.
I'd prefer if there was not much rule overlap.
Maybe an extra wound on a wound roll of a six? It would follow the normal damage rules, so getting 2 wounds off would just mean 2 saves for a single model, not 2 saves for 2 models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

This would be a substantial dramatic increase in anti-infantry firepower. You go from 20 BS3+ Bolter shots killing an average of 5.5 Orks to an average of 10.18, or an average of 5.93 Guardsmen to 9.88 Guardsmen. If applied to all bolt weapons, you'd also run into issues with other armies as well (Sisters, Guard heavy weapons, etc).

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

GW moved the scale, AP-1 starts at what used to be AP4, anythinf AP5/6/- is now AP0.

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

To be fair, bolters have had identical AP to Lasguns for 3 of the game's 5 editions (Lasguns had AP-1 in RT and 2E IIRC).

Would you rather it just ignore the armor altogether like previous editions?

I mean, next to the 3E paradigm era, you'd only be killing 6.66 Orks and 8.88 Guardsmen relative to the respective 10.18 and 9.88 for the "take a another save for each unsaved wound" idea. Particular for the 6+ save Boyz, that's brutal, but either way its inflicting more casualties than in any previous edition.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


For extra hits though? Tesla already has that rule.
I'd prefer if there was not much rule overlap.
Maybe an extra wound on a wound roll of a six? It would follow the normal damage rules, so getting 2 wounds off would just mean 2 saves for a single model, not 2 saves for 2 models.

That would create a lot of extra rolling for shots fired in that sort of volume.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

This would be a substantial dramatic increase in anti-infantry firepower. You go from 20 BS3+ Bolter shots killing an average of 5.5 Orks to an average of 10.18, or an average of 5.93 Guardsmen to 9.88 Guardsmen. If applied to all bolt weapons, you'd also run into issues with other armies as well (Sisters, Guard heavy weapons, etc).

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

GW moved the scale, AP-1 starts at what used to be AP4, anythinf AP5/6/- is now AP0.

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

To be fair, bolters have had identical AP to Lasguns for 3 of the game's 5 editions (Lasguns had AP-1 in RT and 2E IIRC).

Would you rather it just ignore the armor altogether like previous editions?

I mean, next to the 3E paradigm era, you'd only be killing 6.66 Orks and 8.88 Guardsmen relative to the respective 10.18 and 9.88 for the "take a another save for each unsaved wound" idea. Particular for the 6+ save Boyz, that's brutal, but either way its inflicting more casualties than in any previous edition.

The other idea I originally proposed is that a 6+ to wound forces the reroll of a successful save. Obviously silly with Roboute but he really shouldn't be in this conversation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


For extra hits though? Tesla already has that rule.
I'd prefer if there was not much rule overlap.
Maybe an extra wound on a wound roll of a six? It would follow the normal damage rules, so getting 2 wounds off would just mean 2 saves for a single model, not 2 saves for 2 models.

That would create a lot of extra rolling for shots fired in that sort of volume.

How so? Its not going to happen every time, you have to hit first, and then roll a 6 to wound.
I don't think its going to add that much rolling. I use tesla and the number of extra hits I generate isn't as much as you'd think.
And you still have to wound with tesla extra hits. With my suggestion your opponent is just saving against an extra bolter wound.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No they dont.

In all previous editions of 40k space marines had ap 5 which is the equivalent of Ap - 1

The fact bolters are the same AP as Lasguns is reason enough for them to be given that benefit.

Except AP4 is -1 and AP5 is nothing. I'd almost like to argue that the old AP- should be +1 to the save due to it's weak armour pen.

Changing lasguns and various other AP - weapons to AP +1 is the best/easiest possible fix for bolters currently being on the same level as lasguns. It would also make Space marines more durable against IG and DE million shot spam. It's even something that could realistically be implemented into a CA (unlike pretty much everything posted on this forum).

It would generally increase the durability of elite infantry, which people seem to enjoy clamoring about.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

How?

If they ignore a point of Ap and their guns have - 1 ap it cancels out


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At most it punishes light infantry for being out of cover and helps with pot shots against larger targets

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

How?

If they ignore a point of Ap and their guns have - 1 ap it cancels out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At most it punishes light infantry for being out of cover and helps with pot shots against larger targets

That's assuming you would get both improvements. Do you need both though?

Ice_can wrote:

For someone who writes and edits book you might want to look at a codex before you start claiming landraiders in imaginary configurations exsist.

Secondly you also overlooked the inherent advantage that being able to deepstrike such a heavy unit has.

What imaginary configuration?

Yeah, being able to deepstrike a model turn 2, that can't land anywhere due to its size... huge advantage. Btw it will die before it ever gets to bring a unit on the field turn 3. (And then all those units die also). What is the advantage?

valdier wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

For someone who writes and edits book you might want to look at a codex before you start claiming landraiders in imaginary configurations exsist.

Secondly you also overlooked the inherent advantage that being able to deepstrike such a heavy unit has.

What imaginary configuration?

You can't have lascannons and assault cannons. Check the codex entries.


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valdier wrote:
[

Yeah, being able to deepstrike a model turn 2, that can't land anywhere due to its size... huge advantage. Btw it will die before it ever gets to bring a unit on the field turn 3. (And then all those units die also). What is the advantage?

Yes, which is why it should bring in units when it arrives. That's what it needs most of all so it may perform its function.
I have no trouble landing the monolith. If a monolith can't do it then most deepstrikers probably couldn't either. Not 20 wounds worth of deepstrikers anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

How?

If they ignore a point of Ap and their guns have - 1 ap it cancels out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At most it punishes light infantry for being out of cover and helps with pot shots against larger targets

That's assuming you would get both improvements. Do you need both though?

Ideally I'd want both. They would work well off of each other. Marine on marine violence stays the same but they get slight buff against other armies

You are correct that if only the boltgun gets ap then marines are worse off.

I don't think it would be necessary for a points drop with both. Though that would probably mean all bolt weapons getting bumped up an ap.

Sisters make it odd though since they (Chaos marines are just a mirror of loyal ones) are they only other faction that can take mass boltguns for cheaper.

And the other concern of mine is the Heavy Bolter going to Ap-2. For marines it's a non issue but might be too much for what it's for. That being said it would be more attractive

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

valdier wrote:

Land Raider with twin las, twin assault and multi does 9.18 wounds to a leman russ, and 4.68 to marines.

The Phobos Land Raider (the standard version you're referring to) doesn't have a twin assault cannon. It has a twin heavy bolter. It's the variants that lack lascannons (the Crusader and the Redeemer) that have twin assault cannons.

Yeah I wrote twin assault because it was 2am and I mistyped. The stats I did up were for whatever the twin las was. (bolters)

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would definitely make Marines less durable against other Marines.

I'm for the solution that an unsaved wound from a Bolt weapon should cause an additional hit to be saved. It'd be a unique mechanic that isn't over the top, though it doesn't really make you want to pack more of them which I guess is an issue.

How?

If they ignore a point of Ap and their guns have - 1 ap it cancels out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At most it punishes light infantry for being out of cover and helps with pot shots against larger targets

That's assuming you would get both improvements. Do you need both though?

Ideally I'd want both. They would work well off of each other. Marine on marine violence stays the same but they get slight buff against other armies

You are correct that if only the boltgun gets ap then marines are worse off.

I don't think it would be necessary for a points drop with both. Though that would probably mean all bolt weapons getting bumped up an ap.

Sisters make it odd though since they (Chaos marines are just a mirror of loyal ones) are they only other faction that can take mass boltguns for cheaper.

And the other concern of mine is the Heavy Bolter going to Ap-2. For marines it's a non issue but might be too much for what it's for. That being said it would be more attractive

The Tempestus Scions feel their armour and remember they have a 4+ save, and an AP -2 lasgun. Marines get dunked on.

If marines are gonna field less units/bodies than their opponents than they should be able to get through cover saves imo

Ignoring all of the bickering and inane arguing in this thread, how aggressive do people think Chapter Approved 2018 will be? On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "they do feth all", and 10 being "they get into the weeds and fix loads of units that people aren't even talking about"...what are you guys expecting?

Honestly, marines (of all kinds) cannot get overhauled in CA to the level that they really need. However, there is possibly a way to indirectly buff them that helps across the board.
Produce new Adeptus Astartes strategems that are straight out buffs for all power armour or terminator armour. Just simple stuff like "Steadfast in the face of the enemy" (or whatever). 1CP . When targeted by an enemy unit, improve armour save by 1 to a maximum of 2+ for the rest of the phase.Or "Overwhelming firepower" 1CP. If an Adeptus Astartes infantry unit did not move in the movement phase, it may shoot twice with all bolter type weapon this phase (is there a bolter drill type strategem in regular SM codex?). And so on. Just devise some really cheap CPs that buff a SM unit for a phase, either in resiliency, firepower, or close combat.
It's a bandaid, granted, but that's the best we can hope for in a CA. IMHO of course.