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Tyel wrote:
Obviously points could change - but sorry but 2 S4 attacks when a Marine gets 1 for considerably more points is laughable.

It's the repentia that will see the benefits (if they don't still suck in every other way) as it'll get the eviscerator back up to S8 for a turn after it was gimped for non-marine users. If they give the jump pack back to the canoness they'll benefit too.
All of the sisters other close combat units (penitent engines, death cultists, arco-flagellants) will miss out.

Blood Rose battle sisters vs tactical marines would be an ineffectual slap-fight from both sides. Frankly i'd be impressed if CA does anything to encourage squads of either to be fielded beyond minimum size.

So, there were a fair amount of whispers over the B&G weekend that CA is coming late November, as opposed to some random time in December. How true this is, I have no idea, but it seemed to be a fairly common suggestion from people that have been involved in other tests in 8th.

Kdash wrote:
So, there were a fair amount of whispers over the B&G weekend that CA is coming late November, as opposed to some random time in December. How true this is, I have no idea, but it seemed to be a fairly common suggestion from people that have been involved in other tests in 8th.

A good old corporate cynic would probably do it like that so the internet can explode over what's the new hotness everyone should by for Christmas...

More reasonably, sooner the better as it isn't really tied to any fixed date. I'm intrigued by the Sisters and rectification of Guardsmen to 5 ppm, with a slight pinch of hope if we could also see something to help terminators of various kinds.

ERJAK wrote:
This is a stupid fething thing to be salty about. If you wanna be mad that they're making you shell out 50 bucks for a new book, that's fair. If you're mad because the same 4 units aren't the only thing that sees any play for years at a time, you're being dumb.

Problem is changing unit efficiency just to change people to buy new units is NOT good game design.

Rather than 1 year unit A being good and unit B being good and next unit A is bad and unit B is good howabout such a novel concept as BOTH being useful?

But yeah...white knights! Defending even GW being greedy and changing balance just to get people buy rather than making things actually balanced like they are supposed to do(they are after all pretending to be professionals and maker of best miniature game...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
If the whole purpose of having the point cost sheets separate from the data sheets was to make updating them easier (which is not a bad idea, though it does make giving equipment different costs based on who carries it, but whatever)... and we are told this is why it was done...

why when the points are updated do they not simply update the lot, in effect make it part of the reason to buy Chapter Approved, it is the place to issue the points for next year, for everything thats got a point cost at the time CA is issued for any faction where any value changes

That was how players THOUGHT it would be as that would be only reason that makes sense in having points at back rather than at the datasheet which would be most player friendly.

Instead GW went for most unplayer friendly version. Probably so that they can force you to buy ALL chapter approveds and keep them until the oldest one has no more points not replaced by another chapter approved/codex.

tneva82 wrote:

But yeah...white knights! Defending even GW being greedy and changing balance just to get people buy rather than making things actually balanced like they are supposed to do(they are after all pretending to be professionals and maker of best miniature game...)

Instead GW went for most unplayer friendly version. Probably so that they can force you to buy ALL chapter approveds and keep them until the oldest one has no more points not replaced by another chapter approved/codex.

I'd rather be a white knight than someone who spins inane conspiracy theories without evidence or logic.

With regards to the Order of the Bloody Rose,

+1S and +1A is proportionally more powerful on units that are good at and want to be in melee. While sisters behave like a melee army, we don't have very good melee potential.

That said, it also not terrible or unusable, because its good enough to make close-quarters viable against Guardsmen and light infantry units on the charge, and make closing in to finish off shot-up units a viable possibility. At the very least, it will do work, since we'll be in charge range on the first turn, and we find ourselves in CQC a lot.



Also, I like the points costs being in the back of the book and not on the datasheets. In my opinion, it's much easier to reference and build my lists that way. Like, I actually think the new means of doing points is overall much more convenient that last edition. That said, it would be more convenient if they put the whole points-cost page with everything on it, like the back of the index, in the FAQ and CA when the update them. At the very least, there's no page count in the FAQ, so it's not like it would take up too much space.

Points at the back and on the data sheet would have been most helpful

tneva82 wrote:


That was how players THOUGHT it would be as that would be only reason that makes sense in having points at back rather than at the datasheet which would be most player friendly.

Instead GW went for most unplayer friendly version. Probably so that they can force you to buy ALL chapter approveds and keep them until the oldest one has no more points not replaced by another chapter approved/codex.

CA2018 will include every instance where points change from a Codex.

Warhammer 40,000 Facebook Page wrote:Q. The big question is will it include all the current points changes from the available codexs or do I need to find a copy of chapter approved 2017 to play my army at the right point cost
A. If there are any differences in points values from those printed in a Codex, they will be included in Chapter Approved 2018.

Assuming that is accurate, that's very good. I mean, points changes should be free, but this is the lesser of two evils.

Excellent news.

I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

Here, here! I think that's a great idea.
That would also make it worth paying for as you could see what other armies pay for, even if you don't know what their units do specifically

-

Getting real nervous and concerned that there is so far, no official news regarding GKs in the CA. Really can’t stomach waiting another edition before my army becomes usable again..

chnmmr wrote:
Getting real nervous and concerned that there is so far, no official news regarding GKs in the CA. Really can’t stomach waiting another edition before my army becomes usable again..

I noticed that, too. I'm not sure if it is news worthy like Sisters. So either the rework is limited in scope or they're just getting point adjustments along with any core rule changes.

I imagine they'll become more viable, but still a bit boring.

Rumor has it the CA is due near the end of November so we should hear quite soon.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

This is how it works in the General's Handbook and it SHOULD be the same with CA. It'd be a higher page count, due to equipment pricing being a thing, but totally worth it.

How is CA going to deal with rules it changed in the prior version? Are those going to be reprinted, or are they stop being actual rules and only the new stuff counts, or do you have to buy both CA, which maybe a bit tricky considering GW doesn't let stores other them anymore.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

This is how it works in the General's Handbook and it SHOULD be the same with CA. It'd be a higher page count, due to equipment pricing being a thing, but totally worth it.

Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

Isn't it like that in AoS? All their rules seem to be for free online. Including army builder of some sort.

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Karol wrote:
How is CA going to deal with rules it changed in the prior version? Are those going to be reprinted, or are they stop being actual rules and only the new stuff counts, or do you have to buy both CA, which maybe a bit tricky considering GW doesn't let stores other them anymore.

They will have a consolidation of rules changed so far and likely further updates to beta rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How is CA going to deal with rules it changed in the prior version? Are those going to be reprinted, or are they stop being actual rules and only the new stuff counts, or do you have to buy both CA, which maybe a bit tricky considering GW doesn't let stores other them anymore.

They will have a consolidation of rules changed so far and likely further updates to beta rules.

is the book going to cost more then? By sole virtue of number of changes and inclusion of the SoB codex, it would have to be bigger. And in two or three years it is going to be huge being the collection of 3-4 CA in to one book.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

This is how it works in the General's Handbook and it SHOULD be the same with CA. It'd be a higher page count, due to equipment pricing being a thing, but totally worth it.

Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

I wish not. Not at the expense of hardcopies.

E books are inconvenient, and I'd definitely never want to read my stats via a phone app.


Edit: actually, though, a PDF of the points cost would be pretty nice. I could just print the 2 pages I'm interested in, and points costs aren't necessary once the game begins.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

This is how it works in the General's Handbook and it SHOULD be the same with CA. It'd be a higher page count, due to equipment pricing being a thing, but totally worth it.

Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

I wish not. Not at the expense of hardcopies.

E books are inconvenient, and I'd definitely never want to read my stats via a phone app.


Edit: actually, though, a PDF of the points cost would be pretty nice. I could just print the 2 pages I'm interested in, and points costs aren't necessary once the game begins.

^^This. Having stuff online is great, but it should never come at the expense of physical copies. A PDF with points changes would be ideal because it can be updated for free and printed if desired (which I would personally) but could also just be on your device if you want.
Anything that is flexible enough for the player to decided how they want it formatted is in GWs best interest

-

Anybody got a source for the source that Chapter Approved will release late November? I've heard it a few times, but have nothing to go off of atm.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How is CA going to deal with rules it changed in the prior version? Are those going to be reprinted, or are they stop being actual rules and only the new stuff counts, or do you have to buy both CA, which maybe a bit tricky considering GW doesn't let stores other them anymore.

They will have a consolidation of rules changed so far and likely further updates to beta rules.

is the book going to cost more then? By sole virtue of number of changes and inclusion of the SoB codex, it would have to be bigger. And in two or three years it is going to be huge being the collection of 3-4 CA in to one book.

It could go up $5 at most. It's a paperback so usually a bit cheaper for them to produce.

 Mr Morden wrote:
and some actual news:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/

I picked up Dark Angels after 15 years out of the hobby. There were other reasons I picked them, but their Terminators were one of them.

I don’t have a ton of experience with Sisters, so forgive me if this comparison is a little too apples to oranges. There are presumably other units who might be able to use sky strike after the codex is released, of course, but I assume that a Seraphim squad is who this is meant for, yes? If so, I just did some quick math on this because it jumped out at me.

For a roughly maxed out Seraphim Squad, it’s:

8x Seraphim – 14 bolt pistols
+
1x seraphim superior – 1 bolt pistol, 1 plasma pistol
+
2x seraphim with special weapons – 4x hand flamers
=
Under current points costs this is 129 points for 15 bolt shots, 1 plasma shots, and 4d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

For 1 more CP, it’s 30 bolt shots, 2 plasma shots, and 8d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

VS.

For 5-man Terminator squad with a heavy weapon, it’s:

3x terminators – 3 storm bolters
+
1x terminator sgt with no melee upgrade – 1 storm bolter
+
1 heavy weapon terminator – 1x assault cannon. You could also use a plasma cannon here, but not the heavy flamer.
=
Under current points costs this is 212 points for 16 bolt shots and 6 assault cannon shots/1d3 plasma shots (-1 point).

For 2 more CP, it’s 32 bolt shots and 12 assault cannon shots/2d3 plasma shots (-1 point).


Under current points costs, this is 212 points for

I really want the long-suffering Sisters players to get an awesome new codex and a whole range of great new models. I have always liked the faction and think that they deserve a strong treatment. This isn’t a knock on them at all. I also fully realize that codices don’t exist in a vacuum, and there are other considerations that might make this strat and combo key to making sisters work, let alone to making my army work.

But man, is it frustrating that I’m currently expected to pay 2 CP and an extra 83 points for an extra 2 bolter shots and some heavy weapons that I had to shell out more than a few points for, or 3 CP if I take more terminators. I worry more than a little about the power creep that this indicates, but I also worry that it's too much to expect Terminators to get the boost they'd need to compete with this in CA, or that the strat’s cost might reduced. Or both, though I don’t actually want GW to go overboard and overpower us, I just want to feel like I’m not playing with weird restrictions placed on my army that I can’t make sense of. I guess another way to ask might be - am I wrong to be concerned that it might just make way more sense to take a Sisters detachment for the same relative effect, at least for shooting twice out of reserves? (Don't worry, as strong as that Sisters CC strat could be, I'm not going to argue that it's somehow as good as Terminators with powerfists )

TL;DR – Sisters get to pay 1 CP on a 129 point squad for about the same number of bolter shots and an (arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.**

*Note - I left the 50-point missile launcher out for now because I actually felt it might artificially inflate the points cost for my argument, and I wanted the lower cost terminator v. Sisters squad point to stand on its own, though I will fully admit that shooting twice with the missile launcher is certainly nothing to sneeze at, even if it is an extra 50 points.

** - as overcosted and crummy as this strat/unit combo can feel sometimes, I recognize that DA are still lucky to have it and that many marines can’t even do stuff like this!

It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

While I guess I needed to say it more explicitly, I agree that it's a little early and that there are things that we don't know, which I think is pretty clear in my post. But this doesn't really address the substance of it, which was less about potential tools in the Sisters Codex, and some specific concerns I have about my own, for example, stratagems I already had a tough time justifying becoming even less useful, as well as powercreep, more broadly, though that's perhaps almost inevitable in any game. I also don't think it's totally unreasonable to expect that Seraphim Squad are going to be in the range of 9 points per model*, give a take or point, maybe an outside chance of 1, or that Terminators are going to be reduced by so many points that the disparity in points above for use of these two strats isn't still pretty tough to stomach. Namely - am I wrong to be concerned about this? It doesn't seem like I am to date, but maybe other people have heard more that I haven't. I could, of course, be vastly underestimating potential fixes to Terminators, for example.

*I could be underestimating how big the overhaul might be for them, of course, but they are, from everything I've seen, still expected to be T3 S3 models with power armor and access to bolt weaponry, so barring any previews or rumors I've missed here (which is very possible), this seems like a fairly safe assumption, but I am more than open to corrections here as Sisters are not my faction, and I'm sure others are tracking potential changes more closely than I have been.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
With regards to the Order of the Bloody Rose,

+1S and +1A is proportionally more powerful on units that are good at and want to be in melee. While sisters behave like a melee army, we don't have very good melee potential.

That said, it also not terrible or unusable, because its good enough to make close-quarters viable against Guardsmen and light infantry units on the charge, and make closing in to finish off shot-up units a viable possibility. At the very least, it will do work, since we'll be in charge range on the first turn, and we find ourselves in CQC a lot.

Will likely have to see if any new units move towards a more melee focus to really get a handle on how useful the conviction is. Plague Marines went from being a shooting unit exclusively to having some powerful melee weapons in the Death Guard update so whatever fancy new wargear Sisters get could potentially make an assault-oriented list more viable.

AdmirableGoal wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

While I guess I needed to say it more explicitly, I agree that it's a little early and that there are things that we don't know, which I think is pretty clear in my post. But this doesn't really address the substance of it, which was less about potential tools in the Sisters Codex, and some specific concerns I have about my own, for example, stratagems I already had a tough time justifying becoming even less useful, as well as powercreep, more broadly, though that's perhaps almost inevitable in any game. I also don't think it's totally unreasonable to expect that Seraphim Squad are going to be in the range of 9 points per model*, give a take or point, maybe an outside chance of 1, or that Terminators are going to be reduced by so many points that the disparity in points above for use of these two strats isn't still pretty tough to stomach. Namely - am I wrong to be concerned about this? It doesn't seem like I am to date, but maybe other people have heard more that I haven't. I could, of course, be vastly underestimating potential fixes to Terminators, for example.

*I could be underestimating how big the overhaul might be for them, of course, but they are, from everything I've seen, still expected to be T3 S3 models with power armor and access to bolt weaponry, so barring any previews or rumors I've missed here (which is very possible), this seems like a fairly safe assumption, but I am more than open to corrections here as Sisters are not my faction, and I'm sure others are tracking potential changes more closely than I have been.

If we go back to the analysis you make an assumption that the hand flamers will be in range in the regular shooting phase, which they won't.

They kill 7.7 GEQ and then 5 in the subsequent shooting phase for a total of 12.7.

The terminators kill 7.5, which is largely comparable to the special Seraphim shooting phase. Your double tap while 2 CP will produce an additional 7.5. So, you've paid an extra CP for a couple extra kills - not fabulous. But for only 1 CP more you can trigger it on a max size squad so "1.5 CP each".

Of course there is still the problem of point costs, which if course can change in CA for all parties, but right now there is a 83 point disparity.

You have 11 T3 3+ wounds vs 10 T4 2+ (this is an illegal unit). It's not hard to see the difference in survivability.
Additionally, the terminators are packing powerfists at S8 2A each while Seraphim are on 1 S3 attack.

Terminators are solidly better all around, but suffer from 2 damage weapons.