Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

AdmirableGoal wrote:
...(arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.

 Galef wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

Here, here! I think that's a great idea.
That would also make it worth paying for as you could see what other armies pay for, even if you don't know what their units do specifically

-

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I think just having all point values in CA would be easier than checking to see which ones changed

Here, here! I think that's a great idea.
That would also make it worth paying for as you could see what other armies pay for, even if you don't know what their units do specifically

-

On top of that let's have all the units organized by FoC slot!

That's how I know how the codexes are written by different teams, marines had the first codex, all units organized by slot but Eldar do not. So disorganized...

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

No idea about sob in the past, but most armies weren't very different from what they were in their index. Only a few got a full overhaul. I doubt a rank and file sob suddenly ends up costing 20pts.


Am not saying the new mechanics wont be able to influence armies a lot. If GW suddenly decides stratagems should work of a units size, it could be huge. Specially as those armies with the new stratagems would be facing against armies who were not designed with such rules in mind. Plus who knows if after 2-3 book GW doesn't suddenly decide it is too limiting, and when they update eldar, those suddenly don't have those limitations. Having build in limits, based on knee jerk reaction do not end well for armies that suffer from them.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I gak you not there will be a points increase to Grand Masters in Nemesis Dread Knights and our rites of banishment will now only affect daemons and be reduced to 6" range. Because GW really loves GK.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit early to do the analysis when we don't have datasheets and points for the new codex. Using old information is prone to error.

No idea about sob in the past, but most armies weren't very different from what they were in their index. Only a few got a full overhaul. I doubt a rank and file sob suddenly ends up costing 20pts.


Am not saying the new mechanics wont be able to influence armies a lot. If GW suddenly decides stratagems should work of a units size, it could be huge. Specially as those armies with the new stratagems would be facing against armies who were not designed with such rules in mind. Plus who knows if after 2-3 book GW doesn't suddenly decide it is too limiting, and when they update eldar, those suddenly don't have those limitations. Having build in limits, based on knee jerk reaction do not end well for armies that suffer from them.

Even small adjustments can have a huge impact. A change to the wording of Brotherhood of Sorcerers changed the Thousand Sons from a mediocre army that can't do anything other than drop bad bloodletters from the sky to a psychic murder machine that plays completely differently from every other faction.

A.T. wrote:

AdmirableGoal wrote:
...(arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.

The Dark Angels are firing a total of 12x S6 AP-1 shots (or 4 plasma), and optionally 4x S8 missiles.

The sisters are firing a pair of plasma pistol shots and 8x S3 AP- flamer attacks.


If you want a 1 CP stratagem you have to expect to only get 1 CP of firepower out of it.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

A.T. wrote:

AdmirableGoal wrote:
...(arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.

The Dark Angels are firing a total of 12x S6 AP-1 shots (or 4 plasma), and optionally 4x S8 missiles.

The sisters are firing a pair of plasma pistol shots and 8x S3 AP- flamer attacks.


If you want a 1 CP stratagem you have to expect to only get 1 CP of firepower out of it.

Not even 8d3 hand flamer shots, it's only 4d3 as the range is only increased for the initial Deep Strike attack - it's still only 8" in the shooting phase.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

A.T. wrote:

AdmirableGoal wrote:
...(arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.

The Dark Angels are firing a total of 12x S6 AP-1 shots (or 4 plasma), and optionally 4x S8 missiles.

The sisters are firing a pair of plasma pistol shots and 8x S3 AP- flamer attacks.


If you want a 1 CP stratagem you have to expect to only get 1 CP of firepower out of it.

Not even 8d3 hand flamer shots, it's only 4d3 as the range is only increased for the initial Deep Strike attack - it's still only 8" in the shooting phase.

Correct, I think he assumed they can all have the flamers.
In reality, its 2 plasma pistol, 4d3 hand flamer shots and 4 bolt pistol shots from the strat, then 2 plasma pistol and 4 bolt pistols in regular shooting.

AdmirableGoal wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:
and some actual news:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/

I picked up Dark Angels after 15 years out of the hobby. There were other reasons I picked them, but their Terminators were one of them.

I don’t have a ton of experience with Sisters, so forgive me if this comparison is a little too apples to oranges. There are presumably other units who might be able to use sky strike after the codex is released, of course, but I assume that a Seraphim squad is who this is meant for, yes? If so, I just did some quick math on this because it jumped out at me.

For a roughly maxed out Seraphim Squad, it’s:

8x Seraphim – 14 bolt pistols
+
1x seraphim superior – 1 bolt pistol, 1 plasma pistol
+
2x seraphim with special weapons – 4x hand flamers
=
Under current points costs this is 129 points for 15 bolt shots, 1 plasma shots, and 4d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

For 1 more CP, it’s 30 bolt shots, 2 plasma shots, and 8d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

VS.

For 5-man Terminator squad with a heavy weapon, it’s:

3x terminators – 3 storm bolters
+
1x terminator sgt with no melee upgrade – 1 storm bolter
+
1 heavy weapon terminator – 1x assault cannon. You could also use a plasma cannon here, but not the heavy flamer.
=
Under current points costs this is 212 points for 16 bolt shots and 6 assault cannon shots/1d3 plasma shots (-1 point).

For 2 more CP, it’s 32 bolt shots and 12 assault cannon shots/2d3 plasma shots (-1 point).


Under current points costs, this is 212 points for

I really want the long-suffering Sisters players to get an awesome new codex and a whole range of great new models. I have always liked the faction and think that they deserve a strong treatment. This isn’t a knock on them at all. I also fully realize that codices don’t exist in a vacuum, and there are other considerations that might make this strat and combo key to making sisters work, let alone to making my army work.

But man, is it frustrating that I’m currently expected to pay 2 CP and an extra 83 points for an extra 2 bolter shots and some heavy weapons that I had to shell out more than a few points for, or 3 CP if I take more terminators. I worry more than a little about the power creep that this indicates, but I also worry that it's too much to expect Terminators to get the boost they'd need to compete with this in CA, or that the strat’s cost might reduced. Or both, though I don’t actually want GW to go overboard and overpower us, I just want to feel like I’m not playing with weird restrictions placed on my army that I can’t make sense of. I guess another way to ask might be - am I wrong to be concerned that it might just make way more sense to take a Sisters detachment for the same relative effect, at least for shooting twice out of reserves? (Don't worry, as strong as that Sisters CC strat could be, I'm not going to argue that it's somehow as good as Terminators with powerfists )

TL;DR – Sisters get to pay 1 CP on a 129 point squad for about the same number of bolter shots and an (arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.**

*Note - I left the 50-point missile launcher out for now because I actually felt it might artificially inflate the points cost for my argument, and I wanted the lower cost terminator v. Sisters squad point to stand on its own, though I will fully admit that shooting twice with the missile launcher is certainly nothing to sneeze at, even if it is an extra 50 points.

** - as overcosted and crummy as this strat/unit combo can feel sometimes, I recognize that DA are still lucky to have it and that many marines can’t even do stuff like this!

 Galef wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Lemondish wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Ew, I certainly was not advocating for eBooks. That's a horrid half step. You guys also need to jump into the future, it seems.

No. I'm imagining data sheets from an app on your phone. Searchable, indexed, complete, constantly updated alongside errata and FAQs, and most importantly - freely available whether you have the codex for that faction or not. Then include points costs in the same app via a complete army builder tool that allows you to quickly share with other users prior to a game. Could even go a step further and take some hints at various game companion apps in the videogame space for insight on features and design. I'm thinking several steps ahead of just eBooks, which totally wouldn't actually solve anything.

Codexes can still include the fluff, the special army rules like tactics, warlord traits, stratagems, and relics, alongside a reinvigorated hobby section. There's honestly not enough focus on that in today's codex releases, imho.

But data sheets and points costs can exist from a single online source. Think battlescribe, but actually sanctioned by GW, and controlled by then to the extent that they could make direct changes to data sheets whenever they do their balance passes.

AdmirableGoal wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mr Morden wrote:
and some actual news:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/

I picked up Dark Angels after 15 years out of the hobby. There were other reasons I picked them, but their Terminators were one of them.

I don’t have a ton of experience with Sisters, so forgive me if this comparison is a little too apples to oranges. There are presumably other units who might be able to use sky strike after the codex is released, of course, but I assume that a Seraphim squad is who this is meant for, yes? If so, I just did some quick math on this because it jumped out at me.

For a roughly maxed out Seraphim Squad, it’s:

8x Seraphim – 14 bolt pistols
+
1x seraphim superior – 1 bolt pistol, 1 plasma pistol
+
2x seraphim with special weapons – 4x hand flamers
=
Under current points costs this is 129 points for 15 bolt shots, 1 plasma shots, and 4d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

For 1 more CP, it’s 30 bolt shots, 2 plasma shots, and 8d3 hand flamer shots that can hit at 12” for a turn.

VS.

For 5-man Terminator squad with a heavy weapon, it’s:

3x terminators – 3 storm bolters
+
1x terminator sgt with no melee upgrade – 1 storm bolter
+
1 heavy weapon terminator – 1x assault cannon. You could also use a plasma cannon here, but not the heavy flamer.
=
Under current points costs this is 212 points for 16 bolt shots and 6 assault cannon shots/1d3 plasma shots (-1 point).

For 2 more CP, it’s 32 bolt shots and 12 assault cannon shots/2d3 plasma shots (-1 point).


Under current points costs, this is 212 points for

I really want the long-suffering Sisters players to get an awesome new codex and a whole range of great new models. I have always liked the faction and think that they deserve a strong treatment. This isn’t a knock on them at all. I also fully realize that codices don’t exist in a vacuum, and there are other considerations that might make this strat and combo key to making sisters work, let alone to making my army work.

But man, is it frustrating that I’m currently expected to pay 2 CP and an extra 83 points for an extra 2 bolter shots and some heavy weapons that I had to shell out more than a few points for, or 3 CP if I take more terminators. I worry more than a little about the power creep that this indicates, but I also worry that it's too much to expect Terminators to get the boost they'd need to compete with this in CA, or that the strat’s cost might reduced. Or both, though I don’t actually want GW to go overboard and overpower us, I just want to feel like I’m not playing with weird restrictions placed on my army that I can’t make sense of. I guess another way to ask might be - am I wrong to be concerned that it might just make way more sense to take a Sisters detachment for the same relative effect, at least for shooting twice out of reserves? (Don't worry, as strong as that Sisters CC strat could be, I'm not going to argue that it's somehow as good as Terminators with powerfists )

TL;DR – Sisters get to pay 1 CP on a 129 point squad for about the same number of bolter shots and an (arguably, maybe) comparable amount of special weapons fire that Dark Angels currently spend 212 points and 2 CP for.**

*Note - I left the 50-point missile launcher out for now because I actually felt it might artificially inflate the points cost for my argument, and I wanted the lower cost terminator v. Sisters squad point to stand on its own, though I will fully admit that shooting twice with the missile launcher is certainly nothing to sneeze at, even if it is an extra 50 points.

** - as overcosted and crummy as this strat/unit combo can feel sometimes, I recognize that DA are still lucky to have it and that many marines can’t even do stuff like this!

 Asmodai wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


That was how players THOUGHT it would be as that would be only reason that makes sense in having points at back rather than at the datasheet which would be most player friendly.

Instead GW went for most unplayer friendly version. Probably so that they can force you to buy ALL chapter approveds and keep them until the oldest one has no more points not replaced by another chapter approved/codex.

CA2018 will include every instance where points change from a Codex.

Warhammer 40,000 Facebook Page wrote:Q. The big question is will it include all the current points changes from the available codexs or do I need to find a copy of chapter approved 2017 to play my army at the right point cost
A. If there are any differences in points values from those printed in a Codex, they will be included in Chapter Approved 2018.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Spoiler:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Ew, I certainly was not advocating for eBooks. That's a horrid half step. You guys also need to jump into the future, it seems.

No. I'm imagining data sheets from an app on your phone. Searchable, indexed, complete, constantly updated alongside errata and FAQs, and most importantly - freely available whether you have the codex for that faction or not. Then include points costs in the same app via a complete army builder tool that allows you to quickly share with other users prior to a game. Could even go a step further and take some hints at various game companion apps in the videogame space for insight on features and design. I'm thinking several steps ahead of just eBooks, which totally wouldn't actually solve anything.

Codexes can still include the fluff, the special army rules like tactics, warlord traits, stratagems, and relics, alongside a reinvigorated hobby section. There's honestly not enough focus on that in today's codex releases, imho.

But data sheets and points costs can exist from a single online source. Think battlescribe, but actually sanctioned by GW, and controlled by then to the extent that they could make direct changes to data sheets whenever they do their balance passes.

Eww. I hate phone apps for things. Having to load up apps on my phone and looks at everything on the phone screen with swipes would be unbearable.

I'd take a PDF e-book over anything mobile any day of the week.


I like my rock. It's warm and well decorated under here.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Ew, I certainly was not advocating for eBooks. That's a horrid half step. You guys also need to jump into the future, it seems.

No. I'm imagining data sheets from an app on your phone. Searchable, indexed, complete, constantly updated alongside errata and FAQs, and most importantly - freely available whether you have the codex for that faction or not. Then include points costs in the same app via a complete army builder tool that allows you to quickly share with other users prior to a game. Could even go a step further and take some hints at various game companion apps in the videogame space for insight on features and design. I'm thinking several steps ahead of just eBooks, which totally wouldn't actually solve anything.

Codexes can still include the fluff, the special army rules like tactics, warlord traits, stratagems, and relics, alongside a reinvigorated hobby section. There's honestly not enough focus on that in today's codex releases, imho.

But data sheets and points costs can exist from a single online source. Think battlescribe, but actually sanctioned by GW, and controlled by then to the extent that they could make direct changes to data sheets whenever they do their balance passes.

Eww. I hate phone apps for things. Having to load up apps on my phone and looks at everything on the phone screen with swipes would be unbearable.

I'd take a PDF e-book over anything mobile any day of the week.


I like my rock. It's warm and well decorated under here.

 Galef wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Spoiler:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Or they could enter this century and provide the bloody data sheets and points costs via an app...

Might even give them an opportunity to update more than just points for balance purposes.

That'd be fine so long as there are physical copies for those of us who are fine living in the last century and prefer the game technology free. The ebooks still cost as much as the real books, I'd prefer not to have to buy a tablet too.

-

Ew, I certainly was not advocating for eBooks. That's a horrid half step. You guys also need to jump into the future, it seems.

No. I'm imagining data sheets from an app on your phone. Searchable, indexed, complete, constantly updated alongside errata and FAQs, and most importantly - freely available whether you have the codex for that faction or not. Then include points costs in the same app via a complete army builder tool that allows you to quickly share with other users prior to a game. Could even go a step further and take some hints at various game companion apps in the videogame space for insight on features and design. I'm thinking several steps ahead of just eBooks, which totally wouldn't actually solve anything.

Codexes can still include the fluff, the special army rules like tactics, warlord traits, stratagems, and relics, alongside a reinvigorated hobby section. There's honestly not enough focus on that in today's codex releases, imho.

But data sheets and points costs can exist from a single online source. Think battlescribe, but actually sanctioned by GW, and controlled by then to the extent that they could make direct changes to data sheets whenever they do their balance passes.

Eww. I hate phone apps for things. Having to load up apps on my phone and looks at everything on the phone screen with swipes would be unbearable.

I'd take a PDF e-book over anything mobile any day of the week.


I like my rock. It's warm and well decorated under here.

Agreed, searching for things on a phone app may be convenient for some, but good gods does it take FOREVER to do. Seriously, I have tested this. I have yet to have anyone "beat" me to a rule when flipping through a physical book compared to using a phone.
My brain is the only app I need.

But I'm not saying it shouldn't be available for those who prefer it, just that physical books should also always be provided too. Or at the very least, updates should be available for the player to PRINT if they desire a physical copy.
GW can do both, ya know

-

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Even small adjustments can have a huge impact. A change to the wording of Brotherhood of Sorcerers changed the Thousand Sons from a mediocre army that can't do anything other than drop bad bloodletters from the sky to a psychic murder machine that plays completely differently from every other faction.

But I'm not saying it shouldn't be available for those who prefer it, just that physical books should also always be provided too. Or at the very least, updates should be available for the player to PRINT if they desire a physical copy.
GW can do both, ya know

Lemondish wrote:

But enough about that. CA 2018! Do the points from Blackstone suggest upcoming CA point updates? The traitor guardsmen are 5ppm, which is what we all expect real guardsmen to become. The Black Legionnaires are 13 ppm, which is the same as current space marines, no? Might mean marine changes are coming via another route, like special rules, or there aren't any changes at all.

Or could just be wild speculation and coincidence.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Eww. I hate phone apps for things. Having to load up apps on my phone and looks at everything on the phone screen with swipes would be unbearable.

I'd take a PDF e-book over anything mobile any day of the week.


I like my rock. It's warm and well decorated under here.

Agreed, searching for things on a phone app may be convenient for some, but good gods does it take FOREVER to do. Seriously, I have tested this. I have yet to have anyone "beat" me to a rule when flipping through a physical book compared to using a phone.
My brain is the only app I need.

But I'm not saying it shouldn't be available for those who prefer it, just that physical books should also always be provided too. Or at the very least, updates should be available for the player to PRINT if they desire a physical copy.
GW can do both, ya know

-

Absolutely agreed. I was not advocating for a REPLACEMENT of books, just to finally enter the digital age so they can do things they may be reluctant to do mid-edition, like change unit data sheets to update unit stats. Paper book users would just be forced to download and print the PDF.

For the record, I could type the word "Inceptor" into a search bar on my phone before you even pick up the book, I can guarantee that Could even use active suggestions while typing and then BOOM three letters and a click to see the full data sheet. Launch the app and tap share list to type in a fellow user's name and boom, they have your full army list in a standard format before you even get to the store if you so choose.

Apps can be a dream to use, but its all about features and quality of UX design. A well designed 40k companion app, perhaps supported by a small subscription fee, could be an absolute game changer.

But enough about that. CA 2018! Do the points from Blackstone suggest upcoming CA point updates? The traitor guardsmen are 5ppm, which is what we all expect real guardsmen to become. The Black Legionnaires are 13 ppm, which is the same as current space marines, no? Might mean marine changes are coming via another route, like special rules, or there aren't any changes at all.

Or could just be wild speculation and coincidence.

Karol wrote:
Hmm could be that. Never claimed to be a good player to begin with.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You see Karol.

Updating GK codex units and rules would take about 30 minutes too long compared to what GW is willing to put into CA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus we all know GK are a good army and we are just playing them wrong anyways.

ccs wrote:


I wouldn't go that far. It takes a lot of practice & patience to use an army with severe limitations well. You're going to lose a lot of games in the meantime.
And the reward for all that is.... you'll lose less often than you were.