Chapter Approved 2018, What do we expect?

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**CthuluIsSpy**

Quickjager wrote:
Specialized models that literally cannot even do their niche are not why they suck.

It's the rule writers.

But if they are specialized and niche then they will fail against 90% armies, as they would be bad matchups.
There's no point building an entire army that's good against killing demons when you aren't fighting demons.
Either they are demon hunters or generalists. And the latter are already Space Marines.

There should really be an Inquisition Codex or something, that folds all of these minor "specialist" factions together. Something that bundles together GK, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Deathwatch, etc.

**Spoletta**

Tyel wrote:
Power armour has two issues.

The basic Marine in power armour is okay defensively (I think it should be 12 points but ymmv) - but he has the shooting of a unit which costs half as much. So he is crap. The more marines with bolters in your army, the worse it is.

A marine carrying a plasma gun or something similar actually has okay (still not great due to codex creep, but okay) damage - but now he is 25-40 points per wound in a game where there are countless things that will mow him down with ease. You get the GK issue. A strike marine's offensive output is probably worth 21 points - but he has the defensive abilities of a 12 point unit. Consequently they are far too fragile.

Boosting power armour may help the above - but it will not make basic tacticals/CSM/assault marines etc who have crap offensive abilities any more viable.

Exactly, this is the real problem. Durability is fine on marines, it's just that bolters are a terrible weapons for a 13 point model! I made many suggestions about this, but they were always submerged by comments about marines being too fragile.

**Martel732**

It's both. Being overcosted hits offense and defense. Marines both die too easily and punch too soft. Price drop can fix both.

**Primortus**

Marine durability is fine against most anti-troop weapons. It's their offense that is the problem. They don't do enough damage. They need something like rapid fire 2 to be worth their current points.

**Martel732**

Marines give up points faster to almost every weapon in the game than guardsmen.

**BoomWolf**

You can't compare marines the guardsmen because EVERYTHING compares poorly to guardsmen.
Its widely accepted that they should be 5ppm at the very least.

**NurglesR0T**

When Guardians are nearly half the cost and their weapons are AP-3 on 6's it makes Tac's with boltguns seem pointless. It's why you see SM lists with the min amount needed of actual marines. (granted Shuriken weapons are effective half the range but the point difference is well worth it)

**Karol**

BoomWolf wrote:

GK, as they are, are not fixable.
They CANT have a fair point cost, they are either overcosted, or the erase daemons (and much of CSM/TS/DG) off the game by virtue of being just as good as marines, except bitch-slapping any daemon units.

If they are fair against eldar (or orks, or nids, whatever-its a random example), they are outright broken against chaos factions because of how they are designed.

The only way to fix THAT is to make them not any better against daemons than against anything else-but at that point they shouldn't EXIST, as their entire shtick is supposed to be counter-daemon specialist taskforce.

The entire codex needs to be written up from the ground up, and a desicion HAS to be made-are they specialist or not. you cant manage a Schrodinger scenario.

You do know that GK are so "good" vs demons that they make demons play better? Plus why should they be priced fair, non of the good armies are priced fair and people playing those, even go around saying their CWE are underpowered. A chaos player should fear the GK match up it should be a chaos hard counter. Same way tyranids, pre tyrant nerf, were countering eldar.

Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time. Eldar can have it, their dark reaper don't suddenly get bubble guns, if they face something else then marines. All their good stuff works always. If they have a good gun, it is good vs everything. If they have a specialist gun, it is not just good vs something like tanks or flyers, no it is good vs everything that has a wound stat. Their psychic powers don't work only on demons or stuff like that, they work always, to a point where DE start list by picking up a farseer.

Grey Knights should never have been a stand alone codex. That was a mistake. They should have stayed as Daemonhunters. That way you could have your super-specialized demon killers supported by more generalist elements.

Why didn't GW give them proper rules for each unit then. Interceptors were ok a few months ago, 1-2 extra rules or 5 pts less and they would have been good. If GK heavy weapons were good, or if GK psychic powers were good other GK units could be interesting. Even the power armor vs terminators thing could be fixed easily. Make the power armor guys the shoty ones, as for same points you get twice as many stormbolters, and make the termintors the melee specialists 3-4A each, then paladins could be the evocators of GK, with each wound they do generating a mortal wound on a +4. they could even stay with the same point cost they have now.
suddenly ancients would be dangerous to charge, because even if they kill with stratagems they will attack anyway, so the Mortal Wounds get a chance to proc no matter what.

**Karol**

techsoldaten wrote:

*sigh*

Quote from the Daemonhunters Codex, p 21."Note that it is entirely possible to form an army base purely around Grey Knights, if you so wish, by sticking to the Grey Knights units available to the army. This will make for a characterful but rather challenging force to play. With such dedication you'll certainly have the Emperor watching over you!"

That's a really important quote that explains a lot about Grey Knights players. There are a lot of people angry that their army just doesn't work well stand alone. The way to understand their complaints is: "I'm very angry that Matt Ward no longer works for GW and this is no longer 5th edition."

It's very unlikely those complaints will ever be dealt with via a rules change. What I hope CA does to fix this class of problem is:

1) Include that same disclaimer, in large bold letters, on the first page of the book.

2) Add a pre-game phase for games of Warhammer 40k to confirm both players have read and understand that statement before placing units on the table.

There's another class of Grey Knights player, someone a little more reasonable and less prone to anger over nostalgia. That player looks at the mechanics of the army to see what can be improved. That person would probably be satisfied if CA did the following:

1) Gave GK full smite instead of baby smite.

2) Made the heavy weapons more powerful, because right now they are not worth taking.

3) Restored Parry and other rules for Nemesis Force Weapons.

4) Made Terminator invulnerable saves rerollable.

5) Made Vortex of Doom able to target any model in 18 inches.

6) Made that Daemon stratagem that allows a Daemon to return from the warp once per game.

I'd be very happy if Chapter Approved gave us that.

It is not 5th ed. Everyone keeps saying that 8th is suppose to be new stuff. Who cares what GW design team though about GK 3 editions ago. I haven't played 3 editions ago. I want to play now, and have fun with my army now. Not travel to the past somehow to have fun with the army.

Non of the changes fixs the thing that a high cost models like any GK model is, is not going to reach melee, or do good in it with its 1A. The changes to the hvy weapons would have to be ground breaking, like giving psycannons 4-5 shots each or something crazy like that, and even then GK would then be just a DA clone without the Buff characters, cheaper cost, and support units.

The inv thing could be good, if GK had access to something like stormshields or at least had custodes invs. re-rolling saves on a +5, does not help much when the weapons hiting the termintors do 2D each hit. It would also do nothing to all the power armored units.

**techsoldaten**

Karol wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:

GK, as they are, are not fixable.
They CANT have a fair point cost, they are either overcosted, or the erase daemons (and much of CSM/TS/DG) off the game by virtue of being just as good as marines, except bitch-slapping any daemon units.

If they are fair against eldar (or orks, or nids, whatever-its a random example), they are outright broken against chaos factions because of how they are designed.

The only way to fix THAT is to make them not any better against daemons than against anything else-but at that point they shouldn't EXIST, as their entire shtick is supposed to be counter-daemon specialist taskforce.

The entire codex needs to be written up from the ground up, and a desicion HAS to be made-are they specialist or not. you cant manage a Schrodinger scenario.

You do know that GK are so "good" vs demons that they make demons play better? Plus why should they be priced fair, non of the good armies are priced fair and people playing those, even go around saying their CWE are underpowered. A chaos player should fear the GK match up it should be a chaos hard counter. Same way tyranids, pre tyrant nerf, were countering eldar.

Some might say anyone taking a Grey Knights detachment is making their opponent's list better.

Karol wrote:
Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time. Eldar can have it, their dark reaper don't suddenly get bubble guns, if they face something else then marines. All their good stuff works always. If they have a good gun, it is good vs everything. If they have a specialist gun, it is not just good vs something like tanks or flyers, no it is good vs everything that has a wound stat. Their psychic powers don't work only on demons or stuff like that, they work always, to a point where DE start list by picking up a farseer.

Have you thought about the fact Grey Knights were one of the first Codexes for 8th edition? There weren't Codexes for any of the armies you mention when their Codex was released.

The entire army is elite heavy infantry. Grey Knights should be 'good' against anything that elite heavy infantry is good against. They should not be generalists like Eldar, who have an answer to everything they face.

Karol wrote:

Grey Knights should never have been a stand alone codex. That was a mistake. They should have stayed as Daemonhunters. That way you could have your super-specialized demon killers supported by more generalist elements.

Why didn't GW give them proper rules for each unit then. Interceptors were ok a few months ago, 1-2 extra rules or 5 pts less and they would have been good. If GK heavy weapons were good, or if GK psychic powers were good other GK units could be interesting. Even the power armor vs terminators thing could be fixed easily. Make the power armor guys the shoty ones, as for same points you get twice as many stormbolters, and make the termintors the melee specialists 3-4A each, then paladins could be the evocators of GK, with each wound they do generating a mortal wound on a +4. they could even stay with the same point cost they have now.
suddenly ancients would be dangerous to charge, because even if they kill with stratagems they will attack anyway, so the Mortal Wounds get a chance to proc no matter what.

I don't understand that response to the point that Grey Knights should not have a stand alone Codex.

I mean, yeah, sure, someone could tweak the rules to make them a well-rounded set of generalists. But that's not who GKs are, and that's not really who they have ever been.

5th edition Grey Knights are a fluke, every other edition had them as an ally in a larger army. People that have built their expectations around them being good as a standalone force are being unrealistic. Even Deathwing players have had to get over the fact that army is never going to fly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
It is not 5th ed. Everyone keeps saying that 8th is suppose to be new stuff. Who cares what GW design team though about GK 3 editions ago. I haven't played 3 editions ago. I want to play now, and have fun with my army now. Not travel to the past somehow to have fun with the army.

Non of the changes fixs the thing that a high cost models like any GK model is, is not going to reach melee, or do good in it with its 1A. The changes to the hvy weapons would have to be ground breaking, like giving psycannons 4-5 shots each or something crazy like that, and even then GK would then be just a DA clone without the Buff characters, cheaper cost, and support units.

The inv thing could be good, if GK had access to something like stormshields or at least had custodes invs. re-rolling saves on a +5, does not help much when the weapons hiting the termintors do 2D each hit. It would also do nothing to all the power armored units.

You want to have fun with the army with a set of expectations built on a Codex from 3 editions ago. That's not realistic.

You're right, none of the changes I proposed would make them more than a support detachment in an Inquisition force. As they should be.

**alextroy**

Whenever GW gets around to rewriting Codex Grey Knights, they need to properly use the design space they gave themselves to build a fully functional codex.

How you ask?

Step 1: While totally ignoring how effective they are against daemons, build a Psychically-based Marine Codex that has units that functions well in the game.
Step 2: Add a good mix of Stratagems that are both very effective against Daemons but still useful against other armies.

For example, a Stratagem that makes their attacks more likely to defeat Invulnerable Saves would be great against daemons but still effective against many armies.

And the beauty of that is that Stratagems you choose to not use against one army don't make your army weaker. It's only if you have no useful Stratagems that you get a lackluster codex.

**Arachnofiend**

Karol wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:

GK, as they are, are not fixable.
They CANT have a fair point cost, they are either overcosted, or the erase daemons (and much of CSM/TS/DG) off the game by virtue of being just as good as marines, except bitch-slapping any daemon units.

If they are fair against eldar (or orks, or nids, whatever-its a random example), they are outright broken against chaos factions because of how they are designed.

The only way to fix THAT is to make them not any better against daemons than against anything else-but at that point they shouldn't EXIST, as their entire shtick is supposed to be counter-daemon specialist taskforce.

The entire codex needs to be written up from the ground up, and a desicion HAS to be made-are they specialist or not. you cant manage a Schrodinger scenario.

You do know that GK are so "good" vs demons that they make demons play better? Plus why should they be priced fair, non of the good armies are priced fair and people playing those, even go around saying their CWE are underpowered. A chaos player should fear the GK match up it should be a chaos hard counter. Same way tyranids, pre tyrant nerf, were countering eldar.

Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time. Eldar can have it, their dark reaper don't suddenly get bubble guns, if they face something else then marines. All their good stuff works always. If they have a good gun, it is good vs everything. If they have a specialist gun, it is not just good vs something like tanks or flyers, no it is good vs everything that has a wound stat. Their psychic powers don't work only on demons or stuff like that, they work always, to a point where DE start list by picking up a farseer.

Grey Knights should never have been a stand alone codex. That was a mistake. They should have stayed as Daemonhunters. That way you could have your super-specialized demon killers supported by more generalist elements.

Why didn't GW give them proper rules for each unit then. Interceptors were ok a few months ago, 1-2 extra rules or 5 pts less and they would have been good. If GK heavy weapons were good, or if GK psychic powers were good other GK units could be interesting. Even the power armor vs terminators thing could be fixed easily. Make the power armor guys the shoty ones, as for same points you get twice as many stormbolters, and make the termintors the melee specialists 3-4A each, then paladins could be the evocators of GK, with each wound they do generating a mortal wound on a +4. they could even stay with the same point cost they have now.
suddenly ancients would be dangerous to charge, because even if they kill with stratagems they will attack anyway, so the Mortal Wounds get a chance to proc no matter what.

There's a difference between Eldar being effective and Grey Knights being a canned counter. Eldar are not deliberately designed with the intent of kicking a specific faction in the balls, they just have effective units with effective weaponry. Eldar having a weapon that is effective against T4 3+ armor saves is not the same as Eldar having a rule that says "if a unit with the <Adeptus Astartes> keyword is on the battlefield, remove it at the end of your psychic phase".

If you want Grey Knights to be generally effective like Eldar are you're going to need to accept that Grey Knights being designed with the specific intent of being too strong against daemons is an undesirable game state.

**ccs**

Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

**Quickjager**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
Specialized models that literally cannot even do their niche are not why they suck.

It's the rule writers.

But if they are specialized and niche then they will fail against 90% armies, as they would be bad matchups.
There's no point building an entire army that's good against killing demons when you aren't fighting demons.
Either they are demon hunters or generalists. And the latter are already Space Marines.

There should really be an Inquisition Codex or something, that folds all of these minor "specialist" factions together. Something that bundles together GK, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Deathwatch, etc.

If they are specialized and niche, and fail to do their ONE fething job; then it's the rules writers and has gak to do with them failing because they never should have been a full army.

Removed - Rule #1 please

**SHUPPET**

ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

**techsoldaten**

Arachnofiend wrote:
There's a difference between Eldar being effective and Grey Knights being a canned counter. Eldar are not deliberately designed with the intent of kicking a specific faction in the balls, they just have effective units with effective weaponry. Eldar having a weapon that is effective against T4 3+ armor saves is not the same as Eldar having a rule that says "if a unit with the <Adeptus Astartes> keyword is on the battlefield, remove it at the end of your psychic phase".

If you want Grey Knights to be generally effective like Eldar are you're going to need to accept that Grey Knights being designed with the specific intent of being too strong against daemons is an undesirable game state.

Well, I'm not sure anyone wants Grey Knights to be "generally effective."

I think the consensus is they need to be the best psychic chapter in the Imperium. The fact they kick daemon butt is just part and parcel.

**cuda1179**

Fixes for GK I'd like to see:

1. +1 attack for most models (I would accept if it was only on the charge)

2. All special weapons drop in points, and the psycannon becomes assault.

3. Fix their smite.

4. Points reduction across the board. (I think we need about 10% more troops, along with the other fixes, to be viable).

**Neophyte2012**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Karol wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:

GK, as they are, are not fixable.
They CANT have a fair point cost, they are either overcosted, or the erase daemons (and much of CSM/TS/DG) off the game by virtue of being just as good as marines, except bitch-slapping any daemon units.

If they are fair against eldar (or orks, or nids, whatever-its a random example), they are outright broken against chaos factions because of how they are designed.

The only way to fix THAT is to make them not any better against daemons than against anything else-but at that point they shouldn't EXIST, as their entire shtick is supposed to be counter-daemon specialist taskforce.

The entire codex needs to be written up from the ground up, and a desicion HAS to be made-are they specialist or not. you cant manage a Schrodinger scenario.

You do know that GK are so "good" vs demons that they make demons play better? Plus why should they be priced fair, non of the good armies are priced fair and people playing those, even go around saying their CWE are underpowered. A chaos player should fear the GK match up it should be a chaos hard counter. Same way tyranids, pre tyrant nerf, were countering eldar.

Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time. Eldar can have it, their dark reaper don't suddenly get bubble guns, if they face something else then marines. All their good stuff works always. If they have a good gun, it is good vs everything. If they have a specialist gun, it is not just good vs something like tanks or flyers, no it is good vs everything that has a wound stat. Their psychic powers don't work only on demons or stuff like that, they work always, to a point where DE start list by picking up a farseer.

Grey Knights should never have been a stand alone codex. That was a mistake. They should have stayed as Daemonhunters. That way you could have your super-specialized demon killers supported by more generalist elements.

Why didn't GW give them proper rules for each unit then. Interceptors were ok a few months ago, 1-2 extra rules or 5 pts less and they would have been good. If GK heavy weapons were good, or if GK psychic powers were good other GK units could be interesting. Even the power armor vs terminators thing could be fixed easily. Make the power armor guys the shoty ones, as for same points you get twice as many stormbolters, and make the termintors the melee specialists 3-4A each, then paladins could be the evocators of GK, with each wound they do generating a mortal wound on a +4. they could even stay with the same point cost they have now.
suddenly ancients would be dangerous to charge, because even if they kill with stratagems they will attack anyway, so the Mortal Wounds get a chance to proc no matter what.

There's a difference between Eldar being effective and Grey Knights being a canned counter. Eldar are not deliberately designed with the intent of kicking a specific faction in the balls, they just have effective units with effective weaponry. Eldar having a weapon that is effective against T4 3+ armor saves is not the same as Eldar having a rule that says "if a unit with the <Adeptus Astartes> keyword is on the battlefield, remove it at the end of your psychic phase".

If you want Grey Knights to be generally effective like Eldar are you're going to need to accept that Grey Knights being designed with the specific intent of being too strong against daemons is an undesirable game state.

Hey dude, don't you know that in 2018 the Grey Knight is being stomped really hard by Daemon? A decently built Daemon army will crush even the most strong built GK, as they out fight and out last the GK. And whenever an important Daemon unit like a Daemon Prince, a 9 stronger Flamer or a 30 strong Bloodletter bomb is killed by Grey Knight, they will just come back and kill the GK in return without any difficulty.

OK, how about the GK army just reduce those important Daemon units down to their last few models or last couple wounds in the case of Daemon MC? Come on, as long as they still have enough CP, any decent Daemon players will charge that heavily depleted unit into your Daemon Hunter to get them killed, so they can come back at full strength.

TBH, in 8th edition, Grey Knight is one of the worst choice to fight Daemon in the game!!!

**ImPhaeronWeasel**

All this talk about marines (although justified) but my Necrons are still a dead faction (no pun here)...

Although I agree with some posters that the 40k community is a bit whiney (myself included...sometimes). Till today I still see people writing in forums/chats „RP is so broken“.

My BIGGEST fix Id wish for would be to make „competitive play“ more or less detached from the rest of the game...I know there is „Open play“ for that but when GW is doing more of those FAQs and CAs and the direct influence for them are tourneys and tourney players I guess this would be the best solution...(similar to VALVE with CSGO or Magic with its formats etc.).

**Arachnofiend**

techsoldaten wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
There's a difference between Eldar being effective and Grey Knights being a canned counter. Eldar are not deliberately designed with the intent of kicking a specific faction in the balls, they just have effective units with effective weaponry. Eldar having a weapon that is effective against T4 3+ armor saves is not the same as Eldar having a rule that says "if a unit with the <Adeptus Astartes> keyword is on the battlefield, remove it at the end of your psychic phase".

If you want Grey Knights to be generally effective like Eldar are you're going to need to accept that Grey Knights being designed with the specific intent of being too strong against daemons is an undesirable game state.

Well, I'm not sure anyone wants Grey Knights to be "generally effective."

I think the consensus is they need to be the best psychic chapter in the Imperium. The fact they kick daemon butt is just part and parcel.

Karol wrote:Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time.

**ccs**

SHUPPET wrote:
ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

We'll see. BTW, I don't have to be right on this only in the context of 8th. The rule can change come 9th+ Like I said, there WILL be a next time.

**tneva82**

SHUPPET wrote:
ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

People thought that about allies as well. Things change. GW changes their policies and eventually GW will decide this limits their sales too much.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Quickjager wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
Specialized models that literally cannot even do their niche are not why they suck.

It's the rule writers.

But if they are specialized and niche then they will fail against 90% armies, as they would be bad matchups.
There's no point building an entire army that's good against killing demons when you aren't fighting demons.
Either they are demon hunters or generalists. And the latter are already Space Marines.

There should really be an Inquisition Codex or something, that folds all of these minor "specialist" factions together. Something that bundles together GK, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Deathwatch, etc.

If they are specialized and niche, and fail to do their ONE fething job; then it's the rules writers and has gak to do with them failing because they never should have been a full army.

Removed - Rule #1 please

Yes, that's bad, but if they did do their job they would still be bad as most of their specialization would be wasted against everything that wasn't a demon.

**Aaranis**

Also I wish for a severe point reduction for Sisters of Silence and a way to field them without handicapping yourself, that is, in a Inquisition Vanguard with a HQ. Right now they're so unplayable I believe the whole playerbase have forgotten their existence.

**CthuluIsSpy**

tneva82 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

People thought that about allies as well. Things change. GW changes their policies and eventually GW will decide this limits their sales too much.

GW already introduced ways of getting around it by making different data sheets for the same unit.
In the ork codex there are 3 variations of battlewagons. They all use the battlewagon kit, but as they are different datasheets you aren't really restricted by the rule of 3.
You can legally field 9 battlewagons, as long as they are 3 of each variant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aaranis wrote:
Also I wish for a severe point reduction for Sisters of Silence and a way to field them without handicapping yourself, that is, in a Inquisition Vanguard with a HQ. Right now they're so unplayable I believe the whole playerbase have forgotten their existence.

Codex Inquisition would be great. Making all of these small elite armies stand alone was a terrible idea.

**ERJAK**

tneva82 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

People thought that about allies as well. Things change. GW changes their policies and eventually GW will decide this limits their sales too much.

Also that it's a stupid lazy band-aid rule that fails utterly to do any of the things it's intended to do while also creating ADDITIONAL issues.

**Spoletta**

ERJAK wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
ccs wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
The thing about the Rule of 3 is that it sets a hard limit on how much you need of any unit before you don't have to ever buy more of those ever again.

Well, until the next time the rules change. And there WILL be a next time.

highly unlikely that Rule of 3 ever goes anywhere. Certainly not as certain as you imply.

People thought that about allies as well. Things change. GW changes their policies and eventually GW will decide this limits their sales too much.

Also that it's a stupid lazy band-aid rule that fails utterly to do any of the things it's intended to do while also creating ADDITIONAL issues.

Considering that i don't see 12x PBC lists or crap like that around means that the rule is working wonderfully.

The game as it is now would be broken for many many reasons if it wasn't for that rule. Without it, the existence of just one single overpowered model breaks the game. Can you imagine DE with more than 3 ravagers? There are some models right now that are clearly undercosted, and the game would be unplayable without the rule of 3, it's one of the best rules we have been given.

**techsoldaten**

Arachnofiend wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
There's a difference between Eldar being effective and Grey Knights being a canned counter. Eldar are not deliberately designed with the intent of kicking a specific faction in the balls, they just have effective units with effective weaponry. Eldar having a weapon that is effective against T4 3+ armor saves is not the same as Eldar having a rule that says "if a unit with the <Adeptus Astartes> keyword is on the battlefield, remove it at the end of your psychic phase".

If you want Grey Knights to be generally effective like Eldar are you're going to need to accept that Grey Knights being designed with the specific intent of being too strong against daemons is an undesirable game state.

Well, I'm not sure anyone wants Grey Knights to be "generally effective."

I think the consensus is they need to be the best psychic chapter in the Imperium. The fact they kick daemon butt is just part and parcel.

Why can't GK be both specialist and good vs everything at the same time.

You ask for the moon. It would be nice to get it, but I would settle for a flashlight at this point.

**Eldarsif**

NurglesR0T wrote:
When Guardians are nearly half the cost and their weapons are AP-3 on 6's it makes Tac's with boltguns seem pointless. It's why you see SM lists with the min amount needed of actual marines. (granted Shuriken weapons are effective half the range but the point difference is well worth it)

Defender Guardians also have better move and can run without suffering a -1. That mobility makes up for the short range although it does make them more susceptible to a counter-attack in return.

**Ozomoto**

What I would like to see:
Point decreases: Greater deamons, marines across the board, crisis suits, Deamon engines, most pure CC units especially ones that have to run up the board(exluding units like smash captains), whatever units necron players want to play with for the next year. More fw stuff then I can list to at least make them playable.
Get rid of the 1 commander per detachment, update how Knight relics work to make the relics and warlord traits a little worse/harder to get. (I dont want castellan point increase)
Point Increases: none

What I expect to happen, castellan +120 points, valiant up 30 points, dark reapers, eldar psykers, shining spears, eldar flyers all up slightly. Possible change to -1 hit tactics, potentially only the unconditional ones (not raven guard and alpha basically). mortars up to 6 points, change to ion bulwark.
Each faction getting another stratagem or two, possibly a new relic (More incentive for everyone to buy it).
The eight will suck except for the riptide