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I don't know if a 10-15% drop would cut it - but some units clearly need a reduction. The thing is I think some are screwed. Lychguard are in a similar boat to Terminators. A unit which may get to assault in turn 3 is just bad full stop. Praetorians are a bit of an everything unit - but they do everything badly. The complaints then move to the flyers and some of the vehicles.

"Heavy" infantry atm suffers from an overestimation of value of durability. Infact i think that the durability needs to go through the roof for Heavy infantry as terminators and similar units (like the DG termis) in order to be used again, or which probably would be better more output of damage.

As for what will probably happen, more FW nerfs. Jokes aside, i sincerly hope they will take a look at certain FW index lists, and units (cough malcador cough)

I honestly hope, just for the sake of my sanity, that the R&H list in the FW department get's an general improvemnt, i am sick of beeing overpriced by 25% just on the troop side of things . I want to be able to field my Renegade grenadiers again, i want to have impactfull covenants again. Probably not going to happen, but they should atleast consider to split up DKoK list again into siege and assult lists.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Necrons aren't actually that bad in the MW department. C'tan powers in general are better than their psychic equivalents, as they are easier to cast, cannot be denied and don't have a chance of hurting the caster.
C'tan are actually pretty dangerous themselves, though they are fragile.

What necrons do need is better psychic defense; for a race that's supposed to be experienced in fighting psychics, they aren't great at it. They beat the old ones, and only lost to the Eldar because they weakened themselves fighting C'tan.

RP in theory is fine, in practice though its not that great as there's not much synergy compared to the other versions of it; the buffs you can give RP are pathetic.
2CP to reroll 1s is laughable
35 points for a single use item that rerolls RP is a joke.
+1 to RP if you are within 3", and as its at the start of the turn you might have trouble getting in position
The only good buff is from the Ghost Ark, and that's warrior specific.

Not to mention that there's no squad resurrection, even though several armies can do that now.
I think that RP needs to happen at the end of a phase or turn, not at the beginning. Then you can get buffers in position. That's one of the reason why Ghost Arks are so good; you get its rerolls at the end of the movement phase, which gives you a lot of flexibility.

Agree on psychic defense, having it tied to Spyders (which suck) and a warlord trait is weak sauce.

I think RP at the end of every phase would be insanely overpowered. End of the movement phase would be reasonable compromise, to allow buffing units to move into position. I agree that there should be a way (a costly way mind you) to bring back a dead unit. personally I think Res Orbs should allow for you to roll RP for a dead unit at the end of the phase they died in.

Still not seen any explanation as to what would be overpowered about MW vehicles on 6+ for Gauss, other than people don't like MW. If you absolutely must not have MW, then D2 AND ap-4 on 6's would also work and wouldn't cause MW. That way Inv saves still work.

Well, I did say at the end of a phase, not every. Every phase would be nuts with the persistent nature of 8th ed RP. In 5th ed it was fine because failed RP models stayed dead. Maybe at the end of the psychic phase, just so that we have something to do .
Something like "reanimation phase - replaces psychic phase for necrons during their player turn".

Mortal wounds on gauss is a bad idea because its on a ubiquitous weapon type, and it overlaps with Synaptic Disintegrators.
+1D is probably enough, -4AP would be goofy because Heavy Gauss Cannons already have -4AP.

Spoletta wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Easily for example?

10 psykers and decimators with soulburner petards. Magnus has a 2D6 smite. Every tson HQ unit can spam smite, at 24". Ahriman gets +1 to psychic tests, they have a stratagem which gives them +2 to psychic tests, getting a 11 is very possible. Decimators do MW by simply hitting.

Spoletta wrote:

No seriously, have you ever faced 3 vaults?

No, i havent. They cant do 30 MW per turn.

Getting to 30 MW in a single turn with Tsons is possible, but is defintely not the average value. On the other hand 3 vaults can easily push that numbers of MW.

I’ve not played 3 Vaults, with or against, so, can you break the 30+ MW a turn idea down for me please?

With 3 Vaults, I can see you can get each power twice (unless you roll for them), and then, can likely cast 9 powers turn 1. Which powers are being cast in order to reliably get the 30+ MW turns 1 (and likely 2)?

Probably something like this -

TV1 - Sky of Falling Stars, Time's Arrow, Seismic

TV2 - Thunderbolt, Cosmic Fire, Meteor

TV3 - Thunderbolt, Sky, Meteor

A lot of it depends on positioning and enemy unit composition, but Sky of Falling stars can inflict up to 9MW, Thunderbolt depends on if the initial target is surrounded by enemies, Cosmic Fire depends on how many units are in range, and seismic isn't too bad on a vault as it procs on a 5+, but it's not great.
Those have the potential to inflict the most MW in a single cast, and a few of those powers can target multiple units allowing.

Time's arrow is a tax - you have to take it before taking something you do want, unless you go full random.

Ditto for Meteor, though if you don't have anything else that's worth casting the AoE ones on that one could be useful.

You can then use Wrath of the C'tan to cast a randomly chosen power, and if you get lucky you can cast the above AoE ones again.

If we were to assume there are 3 units that are 3" away from each other and 9" away from the Fire vault though, and assuming you successful cast all powers and their effects as well as rolling max damage -
Sky of Falling Stars (on 2 vaults) - Max 18MW
Thunderbolt (on 2 vaults, across 3 units) - Max 18MW
Cosmic Fire (on 1 Vault, across 3 untis) = Max 9MW
Total - 45 MW

This is without Wrath of the C'tan.
Wrath of the C'tan would add a few more.

Note that unlike psychic powers, there does not appear to be any restriction for casting C'tan powers other than the defined limit. So you can cast the same power from a different vault.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Necrons aren't actually that bad in the MW department. C'tan powers in general are better than their psychic equivalents, as they are easier to cast, cannot be denied and don't have a chance of hurting the caster.
C'tan are actually pretty dangerous themselves, though they are fragile.

What necrons do need is better psychic defense; for a race that's supposed to be experienced in fighting psychics, they aren't great at it. They beat the old ones, and only lost to the Eldar because they weakened themselves fighting C'tan.

RP in theory is fine, in practice though its not that great as there's not much synergy compared to the other versions of it; the buffs you can give RP are pathetic.
2CP to reroll 1s is laughable
35 points for a single use item that rerolls RP is a joke.
+1 to RP if you are within 3", and as its at the start of the turn you might have trouble getting in position
The only good buff is from the Ghost Ark, and that's warrior specific.

Not to mention that there's no squad resurrection, even though several armies can do that now.
I think that RP needs to happen at the end of a phase or turn, not at the beginning. Then you can get buffers in position. That's one of the reason why Ghost Arks are so good; you get its rerolls at the end of the movement phase, which gives you a lot of flexibility.

Agree on psychic defense, having it tied to Spyders (which suck) and a warlord trait is weak sauce.

I think RP at the end of every phase would be insanely overpowered. End of the movement phase would be reasonable compromise, to allow buffing units to move into position. I agree that there should be a way (a costly way mind you) to bring back a dead unit. personally I think Res Orbs should allow for you to roll RP for a dead unit at the end of the phase they died in.

Still not seen any explanation as to what would be overpowered about MW vehicles on 6+ for Gauss, other than people don't like MW. If you absolutely must not have MW, then D2 AND ap-4 on 6's would also work and wouldn't cause MW. That way Inv saves still work.

The biggest issue with MW is that it favours the all ready OP/best armies who have FNP on their vehicals.
MW is supposed to be an answer to GW giving out invulnerable saves like candy.
It makes actually having High toughness and decent armour even more irrelevant.
If Guass sucks against vehicals maybe it should be -3AP on a wound roll of 6+. If you go much further you punish only the armies who already feel that their vehicals suck, while Aeldari negative to hit and Deathguard, deamon unit are all still just as indestructible.

But what about Heavy Gauss Cannons? Those are already -4AP. -3AP on a 6 would be wasted. Its why I think +1D on a 6 to wound would be better overall, as then all weapons could benefit from it.

Ok, cool, thanks!

So, on turn 1, we’re realistically looking at an average of around 22 MW, should there be 2 units within 3” of the Thunderbolt target etc.

I’m guessing Vaults can advance and use the powers without issue as well?

Kdash wrote:
Ok, cool, thanks!

So, on turn 1, we’re realistically looking at an average of around 22 MW, should there be 2 units within 3” of the Thunderbolt target etc.

I’m guessing Vaults can advance and use the powers without issue as well?

Yeah, its not a shooting attack, so they should be able to. I didn't see anything that says that advancing restricts power usage.
Keep in mind that you still have seismic and meteor. I didn't bother doing the former because its dependent on how many models are in the enemy unit, and meteor should get a mention because it can deal D6 mortal wounds on a 5+, D3 otherwise. So if you don't have any good targets for the other powers (Nothing clumped together for thunder, no large units for sky and seismic, no low wound stat characters for arrow, at most 1 unit in 9" range for fire), you can just throw a meteor at them.

All the powers have their use, though I prefer Sky of Falling Stars and Thunderbolt because of the range and AoE.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, cool, thanks!

So, on turn 1, we’re realistically looking at an average of around 22 MW, should there be 2 units within 3” of the Thunderbolt target etc.

I’m guessing Vaults can advance and use the powers without issue as well?

Yeah, its not a shooting attack, so they should be able to. I didn't see anything that says that advancing restricts power usage.

Thanks!

Trying to work out in my head who would win... 3 Vaults or my MW spamming TSons lol. All seems to depend on whether they get lucky with Times Arrow snipes and whether or not the TSons are forced to go first.

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't 12 point troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.

You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers. Now tell me, how can necrons do 30 MW per turn ??

Considering they could have multiple mortal wounds spouting auras - their mortal wound protection is top teir.

Not to mention the fact that Ctan explode on 4's doing more AOE mortal damage. I'm not saying it OP. Just saying Crons can do epic tons of mortals with a ctan focus build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

I insist you go into the Necron Tactica and tell those players that RP is fine. I insist. Seriously.

Yeah I think I've read the ability is useless. Cause enemies are just going to wipe out your units - because they have complete control of what happens in a dice game - plus no necron army has more than one threatening unit AND all armies have just enough firepower to finish off everything they shoot. LOL. Ofc none of that is true. Units coming back to life is totally on the same level as a reroll leadership...Seriously?

Mortal Wounds on 6s isn't OP. It already exists in the codex and no-one plays them.

 p5freak wrote:


You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers.

Sure, if you want a non-function army. How are you getting 15+ smites off?

2DPs, Ahriman = 6 MW
3 MSU Rubrics = 3 MW
3 Shamans = 6 MW

That's the best you could get on one detachment. Scarabs would be entirely inefficient for MW spam.

If you're spamming 9 DPs and Ahriman - that's not Thousand Sons and is still only 20 MW.

Spoletta wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

I don’t mind like “2 damage on 6’s to wound vs vehicles” or something, but we do NOT need even more mortal wounds. It’s already a bad mechanic, let’s keep the infection as contained as possible.

Contained = screw the two or three armies that can't do it, but we'll let everyone else carry on. Most other armies can reliably crank out mortal wounds way easier than what I'm proposing, without the limitation of vehicles only. If you don't like the MW mechanic as a whole then fine, but you can't say this is OP compared to other MW stuff out there.

D2 on 6's is really weak sauce, especially as they're only ap-1. You're blocking half of the D2 shots at a minimum, so in reality that's an extra wound or two at most.

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.,
Also, RPs can never be negated by the enemy, it can be limited which is a different thing. Focus firing a unit does indeed prevent you from getting your guys back, but every time you focus fire something to the bitter end of it, then you had to reduce the efficency of your offensive, so RP did have an effect on the game.
We can argue that the effect becomes smaller the larger the game is, and at the standard point level 1750-2000 then it is overcosted for the effect it brings to the table. That is indeed true.
Saying though that RP can be negated is wrong, RP is never truly negated, which means that it's already in a better state than other faction rules.

Necron's biggest problem is that they are a faction designed to cover all AT needs by means of massed Gauss fire, and all of a sudden the Gauss changed role without redesigning the rest of the faction, so that now Necrons have big issues taking down big targets (and also have some overcosted stuff here and there, probably more than the average faction).
Necron's issues are also meta related. The meta right now is cheap infantry and huge models or very powerful and mobile alpha strikes. Necrons are at theyr best against 3+ / 4+ average T targets which right now are completely missing from the picture.

Correct me if I am wrong but destroyers and doomsday arks are in the necron codex. I think we could even venture to say these are good units right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
Mortal Wounds on 6s isn't OP. It already exists in the codex and no-one plays them.

It exists on a 19 point deathmark(not a troop - makes it worthless) not a 12 point warrior (which is a troop so can be easily spammed) Plus if you have literally every gauss weapon doing mortals on a 6 - come on man. You that would be OP as feth.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

A full unit of 20 in rapid fire range averages 6 mortal wounds on a vehicle. It's hardly disgusting, especially not when you consider that necron warriors used to be able to easily destroy vehicles in the other editions. Warriors currently have no way to embed special weapons. No meltaguns for us, no lascannons for us, no plasma for us. All our anti-tank is tied up in expensive units that are easy to focus down. This rule would give out rank and file a way to fight armour without being overpowered.

I don’t mind like “2 damage on 6’s to wound vs vehicles” or something, but we do NOT need even more mortal wounds. It’s already a bad mechanic, let’s keep the infection as contained as possible.

Contained = screw the two or three armies that can't do it, but we'll let everyone else carry on. Most other armies can reliably crank out mortal wounds way easier than what I'm proposing, without the limitation of vehicles only. If you don't like the MW mechanic as a whole then fine, but you can't say this is OP compared to other MW stuff out there.

D2 on 6's is really weak sauce, especially as they're only ap-1. You're blocking half of the D2 shots at a minimum, so in reality that's an extra wound or two at most.

Necrons are among the best factions when it comes to spam mortal wounds, probably the best one, so i don't follow your argument. You actually have the only mortal spam viable build in the game.,
Also, RPs can never be negated by the enemy, it can be limited which is a different thing. Focus firing a unit does indeed prevent you from getting your guys back, but every time you focus fire something to the bitter end of it, then you had to reduce the efficency of your offensive, so RP did have an effect on the game.
We can argue that the effect becomes smaller the larger the game is, and at the standard point level 1750-2000 then it is overcosted for the effect it brings to the table. That is indeed true.
Saying though that RP can be negated is wrong, RP is never truly negated, which means that it's already in a better state than other faction rules.

Necron's biggest problem is that they are a faction designed to cover all AT needs by means of massed Gauss fire, and all of a sudden the Gauss changed role without redesigning the rest of the faction, so that now Necrons have big issues taking down big targets (and also have some overcosted stuff here and there, probably more than the average faction).
Necron's issues are also meta related. The meta right now is cheap infantry and huge models or very powerful and mobile alpha strikes. Necrons are at theyr best against 3+ / 4+ average T targets which right now are completely missing from the picture.

Correct me if I am wrong but destroyers and doomsday arks are in the necron codex. I think we could even venture to say these are good units right?

Yeah they're good units, no doubt. Destroyers are a good unit with an amazing stratagem, but they're very easy to focus down once they've made a play at something. DDA are good AT firepower, but random shots and random damage makes them very difficult to rely on.

Not saying we don't have some decent units, just that we have a lot of chaff that needs fixing. As an aside, this quote chain is getting ridiculous lol.

Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers.

Sure, if you want a non-function army. How are you getting 15+ smites off?

2DPs, Ahriman = 6 MW
3 MSU Rubrics = 3 MW
3 Shamans = 6 MW

That's the best you could get on one detachment. Scarabs would be entirely inefficient for MW spam.

If you're spamming 9 DPs and Ahriman - that's not Thousand Sons and is still only 20 MW.

I never said 15 smites. Next time continue to read, before asking questions which already have been answered.

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers.

Sure, if you want a non-function army. How are you getting 15+ smites off?

2DPs, Ahriman = 6 MW
3 MSU Rubrics = 3 MW
3 Shamans = 6 MW

That's the best you could get on one detachment. Scarabs would be entirely inefficient for MW spam.

If you're spamming 9 DPs and Ahriman - that's not Thousand Sons and is still only 20 MW.

I never said 15 smites. Next time continue to read, before asking questions which already have been answered.

Cool. Hey did you know that the average smite is 2 mortal wounds? And that there is a 16% chance you fail to cast without a bonus? That means each smite is 1.7 MW on average, which takes 17 or more full smites to accomplish 30 mortal wounds per turn.

Next time learn some math and know what you're talking about instead of just throwing out some numbers.

 kastelen wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Necron Wishlist:

Warriors: Give them back the gauss rule (MW on 6+ to wound vs vehicles) and/or pts drop.

Monolith: Inv save and pts drop. Allow unit to disembark the turn it deepstrikes.

Flyers: God knows. Pts drop + ignore move and firing heavy as standard at the least.

Flayed ones: Ap-1 in combat.

Lychguard: pts drop.

Stratagems: Enhanced RP to 1CP (it still wouldn't be great,but it's hilariously bad at 2CP.

Entropic strike: make it apply to all attacks, not just the first one.


There a ton more changes tbh, but these are the big ones. RP is what it is, no point hoping for an overhaul there.

Those are all fine. Except the mortals on 6's for warriors. That is ultimately insane - with that rule alone you would never lose a game just spamming warriors. Warriors just need their 3+ save back. Rp is totally fine too. You have to understand this ability is to be messure against other army wide abilites. Marines have a completely useless ability called ATSKNF - eldar get battle focus (decen't but not game breaking), tau get supporting fire, RP could potentially bring back 19 warriors from death...seriously. It is fine. Necrons aren't in nearly as bad of shape as anyone claims. They have some extremely overcosted weapon options and those need to be fixed - they have some bad units that could use point drops (but literally every army has these complaints in some form that isn't named DE or AM).

Don't Deathmarks already do Mortals on 6's in addition to their normal damage though? I don't see them being spammed as a result.

They aren't troops and aren't in units of 20.

Just make the warriors do special stuff to vehicles only

As for flayed ones, how about letting them advance and charge? And keep the price tag and at 3A only

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

I guess CA could really upset people by making Guardsmen 6 points, Kabs 8 points, moving Fire Warriors up to 9 etc.

Models don't have to be troops to be worth playing. What is that based on?

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

I guess CA could really upset people by making Guardsmen 6 points, Kabs 8 points, moving Fire Warriors up to 9 etc.

I think 5 point guardsmen/8 point fire warriors would be more reasonable tbh. At 9 points they get to feeling like a Tax. Could need some testing tho.

Darsath wrote:
Models don't have to be troops to be worth playing. What is that based on?

CP


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are ridiculously wrong. Tsons can easily spam 30 MW per turn, without the +1 smite penalty every other faction suffers.

Sure, if you want a non-function army. How are you getting 15+ smites off?

2DPs, Ahriman = 6 MW
3 MSU Rubrics = 3 MW
3 Shamans = 6 MW

That's the best you could get on one detachment. Scarabs would be entirely inefficient for MW spam.

If you're spamming 9 DPs and Ahriman - that's not Thousand Sons and is still only 20 MW.

I never said 15 smites. Next time continue to read, before asking questions which already have been answered.

Cool. Hey did you know that the average smite is 2 mortal wounds? And that there is a 16% chance you fail to cast without a bonus? That means each smite is 1.7 MW on average, which takes 17 or more full smites to accomplish 30 mortal wounds per turn.

Next time learn some math and know what you're talking about instead of just throwing out some numbers.

Lets be nice. TS can do a lot of MW - which is what he ment. Necrons can do more...That much is clear.

Dire Avengers are t3, no WBB, and base AP0. Assault 2 18" vs RF1 24" is basically a wash. 12ppm. On 6s, their shots are AP-3.

Necron Warrors are much more durable (T4, WBB), and have AP-1.

If you gave Necron Warrors Mortal Wounds on 6s, how is that fair? That's strictly better than AP-3 on 6s, by a lot. In addition to the native AP-1.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The mechanic itself is fine... It's the fact that people like him and the devs thought that RP was much more valuable than it actually is, and baked a lot of high points costs into our units. RP could be improved in a lot of ways, but the main offender is the absurd points costs that Necron units are paying due to it right now. I will also say that RP is one of the few (Only?) Mechanics that an opponent can completely deny the Necron player.

Problem with the rule is it's not scalable. It goes from awesome in 1k to meh in 1.5k to useless in 2k to not exist at all in 3k+.

Good luck balancing something whose effect varies that much based on point level...And guess what level is most common...

I will disagree a bit. I think it's scaleable, if it had the right support. For instance, if we had a 2CP ability to allow RP on a unit that had been completely wiped out, and they fixed a few of the other weak RP support abilities, then I think scaling would not be an issue.

Indeed all hopes are not lost for RP, which is a good thing, because the current incarnation is much more in line with narrative than a plain FNP roll.

I think that the cryptechs needs a redesign, increasing the chances of bringing back models is exactly the wrong way to buff RP, it makes it even more powerful in small games without helping in big games. Maybe that if a unit is wiped out while within 3" of a cryptech, the unit can use the cryptech as a base model for RP but only comes back on a 6+.

Humm - how about no. How about a 3 CP strat that can be used once per game that lets you use reanimation on a wiped out unit?

 Xenomancers wrote:

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.

You either get to roll for RP or you don't. With more dakka in higher point games, your chances of rolling go down as it's easier to wipe a unit.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment, but it is definitely not getting better in higher point games.

Necronplayer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The reality is it gets even better as points go up. Units take up space and available firepower to a particular spot goes down in scale as points go up. Stratagems with amplify damage can still only be played once. Not to mention threat saturation.

You either get to roll for RP or you don't. With more dakka in higher point games, your chances of rolling go down as it's easier to wipe a unit.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment, but it is definitely not getting better in higher point games.

We are talking about in theory here. Typically units do more damage the closer they get in this game - but the space to get closer to a unit does not increase as points go up - so this space to deal increased damage to units goes down. Fire lanes don't get bigger as points go up - so LOS has a bigger effect in a large game than a smaller one.

There also always an inherent risk of bad rolls when shooting at a unit with RP. Opponents know that it's possible to fail to kill a unit and have it respawn so they are more likely to engage units that can't come back first. (Think about constructs and vehicles) So just by not being shot at RP is doing something effective. This is something that most Necron players seem to ignore.

When I am playing Tau sept and no one charges me because the damage threat is too high. I don't consider the improved overwatch useless ability - it's keeping my units alive - it is doing something very important at that point. Without ever actually using it. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet though. It what we call "intangibles".

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons, like marines, are in the "have-not" bucket for base units. Compare a necron warrior or marine to a kabalite. And despair.

I guess CA could really upset people by making Guardsmen 6 points, Kabs 8 points, moving Fire Warriors up to 9 etc.

This is the point I was trying to make in other threads... There are the "good" factions (Eldar, DE, Guard) and there are the "bad" factions (GK, SM, Necrons). Do we nerf the "good" factions down to the bad? Or do we buff the "bad" factions up to the good?