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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

I guess we'll see when more leaks start coming out. But yeah, if Vaults are going up, then I would certainly expect everything else to be coming down in points very hard. There will be a riot if that was the only change.

I'll take a decrease on my Deathwatch. It probably won't be enough for me to ally in better Anti Tank than the Infantry I've been using, but it's better than nothing for sure.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not enough to justify a whole point.

In real life or for GW. Because for GW worthless stuff can end up costing 3-4pts per model.

Oct-Nov is about what I expected. If they're good with the previews I probably won't go completely insane before then.

w1zard wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Maybe guard are even going to 6, they are better than cultists after all.

Its possible (total guesswork) that a few other swarmy infantry are getting increases too.

That is not going to happen... they would need to reprice veterans, and also reprice stormtroopers if that were the case. Far easier (and more fair) to put IS as 5ppm.

Not that I disagree about the likelihood of them making that big a change, but it's not like increasing those unit's cost is more than a few lines of text on a sheet of paper.

Yup.
We have no idea what-so-ever how massive, or minor, the upcoming point changes are.

it is quite possible that we see massive swings, its equally possible we see hardly anything worth mentioning.

 Aenarel wrote:

- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones). 

What???? Im sorry.... WHAT???? Omg i hope this is not real. Did they really need to nerf one of the only good necron unit?? Really GW??

Nothing for IK shows how much they care

Ctanforlife wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:

- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones). 

What???? Im sorry.... WHAT???? Omg i hope this is not real. Did they really need to nerf one of the only good necron unit?? Really GW??

Nothing for IK shows how much they care

You missed the end of the sentence "A bit on the big ones" They nerfed them, just not the massive 200pt swings the internet was whining for.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is why we need to move to D12 so there is a middle ground between BS3+ and BS4+

Not strictly necessary, with orks at BS 4-2/3+ currently.

Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.

Lemondish wrote:
Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.

I mean, 10% makes a unit of Centurion Devastators 30-40 points cheaper. That's kinda nice.

Lemondish wrote:
Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.

It doesn't seem like much, but for easy maths sake, at 2000pts a 10% reduction means an extra 200pts to play with which is an extra unit essentially "free" by todays costing.

Is it enough to move mono marines up a tier? probably not, but will help open up new options as you'll have more points to tinker with.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Points drops for Marines wasn't the exact solution I was hoping for, and 10% seems pretty weaksauce, but I welcome it. 5% to 10% just makes the already decent and efficient choices better, but I don't foresee that making anything bad suddenly playable.

It doesn't seem like much, but for easy maths sake, at 2000pts a 10% reduction means an extra 200pts to play with which is an extra unit essentially "free" by todays costing.

Is it enough to move mono marines up a tier? probably not, but will help open up new options as you'll have more points to tinker with.

Points matter much more than people give it credit for.

The original meta crashing liist of GMan + razorbacks was neutralized because it increased in cost by 140-170 points in CA2017 (Aeldari Custodes and Knights were still not out there). By the same logic, decreasing the cost of an underperforming list by 200 points could easily make it competitive.

If marines get 5-10% discounts, GK better be on the higher end of that spectrum. GK terminators needed a good 15% discount to even make them playable.

 alextroy wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Maybe guard are even going to 6, they are better than cultists after all.

Its possible (total guesswork) that a few other swarmy infantry are getting increases too.

That is not going to happen... they would need to reprice veterans, and also reprice stormtroopers if that were the case. Far easier (and more fair) to put IS as 5ppm.

Not that I disagree about the likelihood of them making that big a change, but it's not like increasing those unit's cost is more than a few lines of text on a sheet of paper.

Veterans are trash and they are guardsmen with +1 BS at 6ppm. Part of that is because they are an elite slot, but most of it is because they really aren't worth it. They won't make IS 6ppm when IS are just veterans with worse BS and less options. It makes no sense.

Straight_Memer wrote:

ccs wrote:

Straight_Memer wrote:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well D6 isn't that great to be honest. Flat d3 or 4 would be much better.

Well, that'd depend on what end of the attack your on.
You hitting me? Yeah, you go ahead & roll that D3.
Me hitting you? I'm using the D6.

Pretty sure he means flat damage 3/4

Eh. If it's just straight 3 or 4 damage I'd still choose the d6 roll as being better. I'm fine with gambling on doing 4+damage. And I'm absolutely fine with you botching a roll against me & only doing 1 or 2. I have no objections to sitting at 2 wounds & surviving a d6 roll.

Bit of an odd response and I think you miss the point. You basically said “Im okay when it works out for me, and I’m okay when it doesnt work out of the other person.” Which could be said about anything, but most of the time there is no reason to roll a D6 over flat 4 or even 3

Maybe I worded that poorly? If so, let me clear it up. I think rolling the dice & having a (pretty decent) chance on doing 4+ damage is the better option. It's an even better option if I'm looking at rolling vs just doing a flat 3 damage.
I don't CARE if I roll low. There's nothing at stake here, so I'm good with gambling on getting a higher #.
That sometimes you'll roll really low against me is just a nice bonus.

ccs wrote:
Maybe I worded that poorly? If so, let me clear it up. I think rolling the dice & having a (pretty decent) chance on doing 4+ damage is the better option. It's an even better option if I'm looking at rolling vs just doing a flat 3 damage.
I don't CARE if I roll low. There's nothing at stake here, so I'm good with gambling on getting a higher #.
That sometimes you'll roll really low against me is just a nice bonus.

Then again more often than that rolling low hurts more. Rolling 3 on d3 is no use vs 2 wound models but rolling 1 is very bad. Rolling high doesn't average out in long term always(because rolling high is irrelevant)

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

I think the main reason Vaults might potentially go up, is due to the amount of times we see 3 of them in a list, and then their ability to deal so many mortal wounds on nothing but a 2+.

However, personally, I’d have just limited casting ability. 2+ for the first cast of a power, then 4+ for the second cast, 6+ for the 3rd or something. (when using the same power multiple times)

That said, I can see other things in the Necron army getting points reductions, so we need to wait and see what happens overall.

Still waiting for the expected Castellan and Talos changes to come through.

As for date wise, I guess I’m ok with it in a sense as it means it won’t impact Heat 3, but, on the flip side, I think it would have been way more interesting if it was going to impact it.

Biasn wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

This has been done to prevent the 3Vault list but it also kills a single Vault list as necrons ARE already expensive so those 70points are a big hit (if nothing else changes obviously)

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Biasn wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

This has been done to prevent the 3Vault list but it also kills a single Vault list as necrons ARE already expensive so those 70points are a big hit (if nothing else changes obviously)

So why is a 3 Vault list worse than a far superior Knight list? I don't really get it.

 Mr Morden wrote:


- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%

Well, any points drop is better than nothing I guess but I still feel like it should be more. Land Speeder should be 40 points base and the rest dropped by 15% minimum.

Biasn wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Biasn wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait, so they added points to necrons?
Goddammit, what a load of crap.

Meh, the vault can go up in points as long as literally everything else plummets in points, but I'm not feeling hopeful. In before all they do is nerf vaults and elimination protocols because necrons are OP.

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

This has been done to prevent the 3Vault list but it also kills a single Vault list as necrons ARE already expensive so those 70points are a big hit (if nothing else changes obviously)

So why is a 3 Vault list worse than a far superior Knight list? I don't really get it.

Sadly this is something only GW can answer...

Id say because Knights have a book and allies to sell...the Vault is only one in a subpar book...

Ok, so a question.

Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?

I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.

Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.

As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so a question.

Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?

I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.

Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.

As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.

Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?

Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...

Well id wager against as the vault can only do 3d3 MW against a knight so 9d3 if all 3 Vaults do the same...for this youd have to be within 9“ to get the most out of the one power...
The knights however dont have to charge the Vault they can just shoot it to death.
You can kill the support for the Vaults EASILY with armigers or the other knights (scarabs for example with knights rocket pods or even heavy stubbers).

Then again...this is a very skewed comparison you are trying to make. The 3 Vault plus support (mostly Cryptek/Deceiver and scarabs) is the MOST competitive build necrons have.
Pure Knight list is (very) strong but not the most competitive.
Just add skitarii if you dont want to soup. They can hold obj. even if there are a million scarabs as they arent troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so a question.

Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?

I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.

Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.

As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.

Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?

Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...

Thank you!

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Well id wager against as the vault can only do 3d3 MW against a knight so 9d3 if all 3 Vaults do the same...for this youd have to be within 9“ to get the most out of the one power...
The knights however dont have to charge the Vault they can just shoot it to death.
You can kill the support for the Vaults EASILY with armigers or the other knights (scarabs for example with knights rocket pods or even heavy stubbers).

Then again...this is a very skewed comparison you are trying to make. The 3 Vault plus support (mostly Cryptek/Deceiver and scarabs) is the MOST competitive build necrons have.
Pure Knight list is (very) strong but not the most competitive.
Just add skitarii if you dont want to soup. They can hold obj. even if there are a million scarabs as they arent troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so a question.

Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?

I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.

Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.

As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.

Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?

Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...

Thank you!

I made the pure Knights comparison, because the comments were

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

So why is a 3 Vault list worse than a far superior Knight list? I don't really get it

This implies that the direct comparison being made is that Knight lists are better than the 3 Vault lists.

If the actual comparison is “why is a 3 Vault list worse than an Imperium Soup list” then, sure, but it’s a completely different statement and comparison, as I wouldn’t consider an Imperium list with 1 Knight in it, to be a “Knight list”.

If we want to run it was 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 200-300 points of Guardsmen support, then, the comparison still works. Can 3 Knights and 2 Armigers beat 3 Vaults?

Kdash wrote:
If the actual comparison is “why is a 3 Vault list worse than an Imperium Soup list” then, sure, but it’s a completely different statement and comparison, as I wouldn’t consider an Imperium list with 1 Knight in it, to be a “Knight list”.

If we want to run it was 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 200-300 points of Guardsmen support, then, the comparison still works. Can 3 Knights and 2 Armigers beat 3 Vaults?

Would you consider 3-4 knights with support as knight list?

You compared to about worst possible way to run knights. Why not compare that to worst way to run vaults then?

Also btw unit vs unit comparisons are pretty much irrelevant. It wouldn't even matter if vaults were perfect tool vs knights if they lose against every other army. You don't play only vs knights lists.

Kdash wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Well id wager against as the vault can only do 3d3 MW against a knight so 9d3 if all 3 Vaults do the same...for this youd have to be within 9“ to get the most out of the one power...
The knights however dont have to charge the Vault they can just shoot it to death.
You can kill the support for the Vaults EASILY with armigers or the other knights (scarabs for example with knights rocket pods or even heavy stubbers).

Then again...this is a very skewed comparison you are trying to make. The 3 Vault plus support (mostly Cryptek/Deceiver and scarabs) is the MOST competitive build necrons have.
Pure Knight list is (very) strong but not the most competitive.
Just add skitarii if you dont want to soup. They can hold obj. even if there are a million scarabs as they arent troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so a question.

Which wins.
A pure Knight list, or 3 Vaults + support?

I’d wager that most of the time, the 3 Vaults + support wins, simply because of the mortal wound output and the Wraiths/Scarabs etc will have to be ignored/will prevent the Knights charging the Vaults.

Sure, in the scheme of debating who wins in a 3 Vault vs Imperium army, then, the results are probably massively different, but, in a Knights vs Vault situation I’m not too sure.

As for the impact of the points increase, we plebs don’t know, and won’t know, until we either get a full leak or the book finally gets released.

Why you are making comparison to pure knight list though? Why not compare how they are played ie knights+support?

Sure if you compare stuff to crap you can make things look great. Hell even stompa can be made to look good...

Thank you!

I made the pure Knights comparison, because the comments were

I don't even know why the vault would go up. Compared to Knights its already gak-tier. And 70pts is the death sentence to that model.

So why is a 3 Vault list worse than a far superior Knight list? I don't really get it

This implies that the direct comparison being made is that Knight lists are better than the 3 Vault lists.

If the actual comparison is “why is a 3 Vault list worse than an Imperium Soup list” then, sure, but it’s a completely different statement and comparison, as I wouldn’t consider an Imperium list with 1 Knight in it, to be a “Knight list”.

If we want to run it was 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 200-300 points of Guardsmen support, then, the comparison still works. Can 3 Knights and 2 Armigers beat 3 Vaults?

Vaults are actually pretty strong. However, they have really bad damage output versus single models such as Knights. So even if you wanted to prove that Vaults are strong, you chose a match-up that wouldn't showcase it anyways. A lot of the Powers that the Vaults use are better against units of models and not separate model units.