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 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

The joke is that Primaris marines cost 5pts too much and don't have wargear options. How on earth did you miss this?

Bremon wrote:
“BA would be ridiculous”. Maybe in a meta where melee dominates. That isn’t 8th though. +1 to wound in a round of combat is somehow worth 3 points, while fall back and shoot is worth 0, -1 to hit (or auto cover or whatever it becomes) is worth 0. Lol, ok. Maybe Ultras should pay +3 points per marine because they can take Guilliman. That’s how “paying for potential” works, according to people like Porcupine.

Melee is actually pretty good in 8th edition. Some of the nastiest lists are built around it:

Catachan Guard
Tyranids
Orks
Genestealer Cults
Mortarian + Magnus

I don't think that Melee is good. I think that lot of attacks is good and so is very mobile High Strength attacks.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

The joke is that Primaris marines cost 5pts too much and don't have wargear options. How on earth did you miss this?

This. Primaris have like, no customization. It's fething stupid. Even their captains have so little customization it's sad.

Maybe its my tiny Lamenters army blinding me to the truth - but the idea 2 S4 attacks with +1 to wound on the first round is going to be overpowered at 13 points is... proving a stretch.

I mean I know everyone thinks basic Ork boyz are the suck now (despite them winning tournaments) - but they have more than that for half the points. Freaking Wyches can have 4 S4 attacks for 8 points.

Sir Heckington wrote:
This. Primaris have like, no customization. It's fething stupid. Even their captains have so little customization it's sad.

NO MODEL NO RULES

Sir Heckington wrote:

This. Primaris have like, no customization. It's fething stupid. Even their captains have so little customization it's sad.

Then fix that. Trying to fix tactical marines at this point makes about as much sense than trying to fix Grail Knights.

 alextroy wrote:
I don't think that Melee is good. I think that lot of attacks is good and so is very mobile High Strength attacks.

Melee is bad, unless you have a decent way to deliver the unit safely. Even then it's a toss up. I've had to talk my list to include stuff to mow down anything that could delete a rhino on T1. Times is rough to be a melee fanatic.

 Crimson wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

This. Primaris have like, no customization. It's fething stupid. Even their captains have so little customization it's sad.

Then fix that. Trying to fix tactical marines at this point makes about as much sense than trying to fix Grail Knights.

It is easier to change Tacticals to have a good statline than to give options to Intercessors because one only requires data sheet changes, and the other requires a new model kit. Why do you think it doesn't make sense to fix tacticals? And it's not just tacs. The problem with tacs is the same problem for literally the entire MeQ statline.

When I look at the problems GW has with points cost, I start to wonder if they didn't want 8th edition to be points free like AoS, when they planed it, and only after they got feedback on AoS they suddenly had to add points cost all of the sudden, and given how companies do fast paced changed, they copy pasted some stuff, pull some stuff out of their magic hats and some points costs were made based on feelings "how they should be". And we ended up with 8th working the way it does. I mean I could imagine that without points costs different stuff could be good or bad. The whole playtesting makes sense too then. If people tested, a more or less, different game, how could they feed back to the design team even work?

In think I don't care about other armies anymore, and if GW fixs them. As long as they fix my army, or at least make it somewhat playable, the book is going to be right enough for me.

 Crimson wrote:


Then fix that. Trying to fix tactical marines at this point makes about as much sense than trying to fix Grail Knights.

What is a grail knight?

Grail knights are old fantasy models

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

It is easier to change Tacticals to have a good statline than to give options to Intercessors because one only requires data sheet changes, and the other requires a new model kit.

They're making these chapter upgrade kits for Primaris. Just make similar upgrade kit, but with some actual weapon options.

Why do you think it doesn't make sense to fix tacticals? And it's not just tacs. The problem with tacs is the same problem for literally the entire MeQ statline.

Because they're legacy models that will soon be phased out. Primaris are the current real marines.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Grail knights are old fantasy models

There is the utter east.

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

It is easier to change Tacticals to have a good statline than to give options to Intercessors because one only requires data sheet changes, and the other requires a new model kit.

They're making these chapter upgrade kits for Primaris. Just make similar upgrade kit, but with some actual weapon options.

Why do you think it doesn't make sense to fix tacticals? And it's not just tacs. The problem with tacs is the same problem for literally the entire MeQ statline.

Because they're legacy models that will soon be phased out. Primaris are the current real marines.

I really don't care how they go about doing it. I don't care if they make all marines Primaris, or remove Primaris, or whatever. I care about having a viable stat line for basic marine units so I can actually field space marines again. This is a bunch of semantics. My original post that was being responded to was about the fastest change that they could do, right now, in Chapter Approved, to get marines back on the table. And for that, it is still easier to add a new rule to existing marines to make them viable.

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

It is easier to change Tacticals to have a good statline than to give options to Intercessors because one only requires data sheet changes, and the other requires a new model kit.

They're making these chapter upgrade kits for Primaris. Just make similar upgrade kit, but with some actual weapon options.

Why do you think it doesn't make sense to fix tacticals? And it's not just tacs. The problem with tacs is the same problem for literally the entire MeQ statline.

Because they're legacy models that will soon be phased out. Primaris are the current real marines.

You should work at GW

In Canada intercessors are 70 for 10.
Shoulders upgrade is 20.
An upgrade sprue for guns at least 30. More plastic more detail.

So what would be on this sprue, one of each weapon? That's a lot. So a special weapons sprue and a heavy weapons sprue?
Now there'd be two sprues.

Legion loadouts are preferable to this mess. On top of that it'd limit new kits.

Just sounds like making a new kit with extra steps...

The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

Yep, they don't need all the same option than old marines have, though they could use a bit more. Some weapon options for the sergeant (Reiver sergeant definitely needs a proper melee weapon option!) and perhaps some other combi weapon options instead of the auxiliary grenade launcher.

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

Yeah. And it's dumb and everyone hates it. SM are supposed to be generalists with options, as opposed to say, Eldar, which have more types of specialists with less options. The reason SM ended up with all the dreadnought variants is because SM is popular and GW wanted to keep milking it. What's the problem?

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

 alextroy wrote:
I don't think that Melee is good. I think that lot of attacks is good and so is very mobile High Strength attacks.

Melee is bad, except for the good melee units.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

The joke is that Primaris marines cost 5pts too much and don't have wargear options. How on earth did you miss this?

At those stats, a space marine would be tougher than two ork boyz, necron warriors, eldar guardians, and tau firewarriors, for less points and would only lose to melee with the boyz, meanwhile making SoB, Crisis suits, Immortals, ad mech rangers/vanguards, and nid warriors looks pathetic by comparison, all while having a better ranged ability on any 1 v 1. What's "missed" here is that some portions of the SM community are so obsessed with the 4pt guardsman white whale that it makes them impossible to approach in discussion. I shouldn't have to say every time that I don't think space marines are good but when even stating that SM have won tournaments is refused or any good their codex has "doesn't count", then I HAVE to question that any buff will please them.

When shooting is so powerful, and you can stop a unit from shooting by touching it, melee is also powerful.

Also, good melee can be really, really good.

I don't want Primaris to have lots of options, most being useless as is the case with traditional Marines.

They play more like a 30k Legion, with units dedicated to a single purpose. That's a design choice and one that ultimately makes for a better tabletop army. Eldar are the same for example.

Obviously at the moment the Primaris range has gaps in it's capability and lacks good strategem support. This will change in the future.

Melee is shooting with a 1” range, and if you’re playing Marines your stuff is dead before it gets there. If you’re playing Ba you get to spend your CP on enabling roughly 2 units to reach melee, after which the enemy falls back for basically 0 penalty and the rest of the enemy line shoots your valuable unit to ribbons.

GW even went out of their way to make sure melee wasn’t “unfair” to shooting units so shooting gets a free turn of shooting first.

Good melee pays through the nose for the privilege. Meanwhile you’re better off with fast or tough cheap bodies a la orks and nids.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

But are your motives "I'm gonna kill that unit" or "I'm gonna shut down that unit cause they can't kill my suit/lock it down with my cheap doods"

 fraser1191 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

But are your motives "I'm gonna kill that unit" or "I'm gonna shut down that unit cause they can't kill my suit/lock it down with my cheap doods"

You have to admit that locking down an expensive unit with cheap fodder is a pretty effective tactic!

 Luciferian wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

But are your motives "I'm gonna kill that unit" or "I'm gonna shut down that unit cause they can't kill my suit/lock it down with my cheap doods"

You have to admit that locking down an expensive unit with cheap fodder is a pretty effective tactic!

It is - and outside of a few select dedicated CC units, that's all the Charge/Fight phase is practically useful for.