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There are a lot of good melee units at the moment that work in different ways. Ork Boyz work with a horde of cheap bodies and a big pile of S4 attacks, as do Catachan Guard. Grotesques are relatively expensive (terminator-esque prices) and have high quality, high strength attacks with an invuln, but they are used in much smaller numbers 5-15 is normal to be effective. Talos are like grotesques +1 and still effective in even smaller numbers. Shining Spears are a super fast, low model count glass cannon. Knights are giant stompy robots. Genestealers (both flavours) are a horde of teeth and claws at a middle price point that can be buffed to all heck. All these units regularly see play at high levels and melee to great effect. Marines are crap at melee, but other factions aren't.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Yeah. Easiest way to patch SM and get them back on the table. Give them all this:

Special Rule: Astartes Legionnaire
The Space Marines, and their wargear, are super human in both scale and effectiveness.

All models with this rule gain +1 Attack and +1 wound. Any weapons used by models with this rules that is AP 0 or AP -1 gains an additional point of AP.

Oh, yet another genius has reinvented the Primaris Marines!

That the big joke, isn't it. People want to give SM these big sweeping buffs and GW actually gives them that and then those same people turn their noses up at it. It's hard to look at that and not think "They're just making demands because they can and only care about the guys carrying the special weapons"

The joke is that Primaris marines cost 5pts too much and don't have wargear options. How on earth did you miss this?

At those stats, a space marine would be tougher than two ork boyz, necron warriors, eldar guardians, and tau firewarriors, for less points and would only lose to melee with the boyz, meanwhile making SoB, Crisis suits, Immortals, ad mech rangers/vanguards, and nid warriors looks pathetic by comparison, all while having a better ranged ability on any 1 v 1. What's "missed" here is that some portions of the SM community are so obsessed with the 4pt guardsman white whale that it makes them impossible to approach in discussion. I shouldn't have to say every time that I don't think space marines are good but when even stating that SM have won tournaments is refused or any good their codex has "doesn't count", then I HAVE to question that any buff will please them.

If those changes to marines happen, what DO we do about other infantry in a bad spot compared to the 4 pt Guardsmen marine players point out? My Eldar Guardians are 8 PPM for a 12" gun and the defensive stats of a guardsmen! Hell Dire Avengers just become absolutely obsolete at 12 PPM with 4+, 18" gun and yes bladestorm on shuriken can be good, but not on a model with short ranged weapons, worse toughness and save than a tactical.

In another vein I truly believe the only 4PPM in the horde sense should be Termagants. worse defences than a guardsmen, terrible gun and shooting without literally doubling their costs for the good weapon alternative and they don't get anywhere near the same amount of support in codex as Guardsmen do from orders. Synapse is nice but the mantra of fighting nids has always been 'Kill the big bugs, the little ones will follow!' Hell if anyone other than me ever fielded a Tervigon killing it literally causes the gaunts to die in sympathy pains.


Marines really aren't the ONLY unit hurting troops wise, and Necron Warriors, Eldar Troops choices and AdMech all need a look at. Orks increasing in price was a good thing to 7, guardsmen need to be 6 in my opinon and cultists 6 aswell. The support for such cheap bodies is reeeeeeal and makes them hit above their weight.

Marines don't have to have superior stats, tacticals are powerful in their loadout choices. I personally don't think they need 2W, maybe giving Astartes Power Armour a re roll armour saves of 1 against AP 1 and 2 weaponry. And possibly 1 point off, but many more units also need a look at in the 'bodies over wargear' edition.


- Edited cause life is hard without coffee first.

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

I generally agree with this view - that this is a game built with a design philosophy that armies should bring mixed forces, and not just skew to melee. Melee still has an important role in the game in that a melee unit can completely lock down many shooting units and prevent them from shooting and ultimately wipe them given time.

That would all be perfectly fine to me, except for the tricky situation Daemons, who have extremely limited shooting options and are forced to play a melee skew list.

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

That's fine. Can I stop paying a ridiculous premium for my assault units now then? Specifically, those mutli-damage close combat weapons since I'm not supposed to be killing things in melee.

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

“Dedicated to shooting...” citiation needed. Melee is not only an iconic part of the game and setting, but more unit stats are for melee than shooting, and more of the basic game rules deal with melee instead of shooting. There are also armies whose army bonuses and in some cases near entire roster are only relevant for close combat, so your stance is that the people that play those armies can go sit and spin?

Slipspace wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

That's fine. Can I stop paying a ridiculous premium for my assault units now then? Specifically, those mutli-damage close combat weapons since I'm not supposed to be killing things in melee.

Those units/weapons are still often the most efficient way of dealing with certain enemy threats. Old One Eye, Smash Captains and so on. There is absolutely an essential place on the top table for premium melee beatsticks, I don't think that's a problem at all.

The issue seems to be that it's difficult for a whole army focused on primarily melee units to be successful Vs a shooty army. Though there are plenty of counterexamples to this that are doing well in the meta such as Kraken Nids and Green Tide (which seems to be back with avengence post codex!).

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure that GW sells two different kits, the standard Dread and the Ven Dread. They are absolutely tho different entries.

Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

Drager wrote:
Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

People who say 'melee is totally useless' generally mean either 'my 5th ed melee army I haven't updated at all can't win anymore so that means melee must be useless!', 'my favorite melee unit isn't very good anymore, so all melee must be useless!', or 'my 100% melee space marine/DE/CSM/Necron/Tau army doesn't do very well, so all melee must be useless!

ERJAK wrote:

Drager wrote:
Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

People who say 'melee is totally useless' generally mean either 'my 5th ed melee army I haven't updated at all can't win anymore so that means melee must be useless!', 'my favorite melee unit isn't very good anymore, so all melee must be useless!', or 'my 100% melee space marine/DE/CSM/Necron/Tau army doesn't do very well, so all melee must be useless!

OR it's just because only a few units are doing well in melee and you perhaps think that means the whole mechanic is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure that GW sells two different kits, the standard Dread and the Ven Dread. They are absolutely tho different entries.

It's the same bloody model. It's ALWAYS just been an upgrade to the standard one, which is why I'm not sure why the regular entry exists at this point.

The issue is that "good melee" and "bad melee" is often a binary choice.

Good melee is usually marked by having a good chance of a turn 1 charge - and guarantee of a 2nd turn charge. This charge will do around 70-100% of the units points value once in combat (you may lose some to overwatch, but if you connect, it counts).

By contrast there are a range of bad units which may get into assault by turn 3, maybe, and when they do only tickle the target for about 40% of their points value.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Drager wrote:
Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

People who say 'melee is totally useless' generally mean either 'my 5th ed melee army I haven't updated at all can't win anymore so that means melee must be useless!', 'my favourite melee unit isn't very good anymore, so all melee must be useless!', or 'my 100% melee space marine/DE/CSM/Necron/Tau army doesn't do very well, so all melee must be useless!

OR it's just because only a few units are doing well in melee and you perhaps think that means the whole mechanic is fine.

This is also true of shooting, however, so it's not a melee thing. Take Drukhari, my favourite army. The HQs are all buff bubbles, they can all melee OK and the Archon can shoot OK. Overall they are fine. The troops come in 3 flavours: Kabalites (High-Mid Tier shooting), Wracks (Durable, Mid Tier Melee), Wyches (Low tier Melee). The elites have a good spread too Grotesques (Durable, Top Tier Melee), Mandrakes (Mid Tier Shooting and Melee), Incubi (Low-Mid Tier Melee). Fast Attack; Reavers (Mid Tier Melee), Hellions (Crap), Scourges (Mid Tier shooting). Heavy Support; Ravager (Top Tier Shooting), Talos (Top Tier Durability, Mid Tier Shooting, High Tier Melee), Cronos (Crap).

So you can see we have a few very strong units and many that aren't that great. My favourites (Scourges, Mandrakes and Ravagers) are in an OK place, but if you love Incubi or wyches... not so much. The strong and the crap seems equally spread amongst Melee and Shooting, seems to be similar for everyone except Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure that GW sells two different kits, the standard Dread and the Ven Dread. They are absolutely tho different entries.

It's the same bloody model. It's ALWAYS just been an upgrade to the standard one, which is why I'm not sure why the regular entry exists at this point.

It actually is two different kits. There's a lot of cross-compatibility between the sprues, but they are distinctly different and you cannot build a regular dread out of the contents of the Venerable Dread kit.

They do have all the same weapon options even though the options you can actually build are split between the two kits for some bizarre reason.

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure that GW sells two different kits, the standard Dread and the Ven Dread. They are absolutely tho different entries.

It's the same bloody model. It's ALWAYS just been an upgrade to the standard one, which is why I'm not sure why the regular entry exists at this point.

It actually is two different kits. There's a lot of cross-compatibility between the sprues, but they are distinctly different and you cannot build a regular dread out of the contents of the Venerable Dread kit.

They do have all the same weapon options even though the options you can actually build are split between the two kits for some bizarre reason.

Why can't you? They're literally the same model except one is more decorated.

"They're literally the same model except one is more decorated." summarizes 90% of the space marine model range

Drager wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Drager wrote:
Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

People who say 'melee is totally useless' generally mean either 'my 5th ed melee army I haven't updated at all can't win anymore so that means melee must be useless!', 'my favourite melee unit isn't very good anymore, so all melee must be useless!', or 'my 100% melee space marine/DE/CSM/Necron/Tau army doesn't do very well, so all melee must be useless!

OR it's just because only a few units are doing well in melee and you perhaps think that means the whole mechanic is fine.

This is also true of shooting, however, so it's not a melee thing. Take Drukhari, my favourite army. The HQs are all buff bubbles, they can all melee OK and the Archon can shoot OK. Overall they are fine. The troops come in 3 flavours: Kabalites (High-Mid Tier shooting), Wracks (Durable, Mid Tier Melee), Wyches (Low tier Melee). The elites have a good spread too Grotesques (Durable, Top Tier Melee), Mandrakes (Mid Tier Shooting and Melee), Incubi (Low-Mid Tier Melee). Fast Attack; Reavers (Mid Tier Melee), Hellions (Crap), Scourges (Mid Tier shooting). Heavy Support; Ravager (Top Tier Shooting), Talos (Top Tier Durability, Mid Tier Shooting, High Tier Melee), Cronos (Crap).

So you can see we have a few very strong units and many that aren't that great. My favourites (Scourges, Mandrakes and Ravagers) are in an OK place, but if you love Incubi or wyches... not so much. The strong and the crap seems equally spread amongst Melee and Shooting, seems to be similar for everyone except Marines.

Somehow you wanted to show how shooting units are also devided into crap and good and then your list states that all DE shooting units are okay, and melee units can be crap. Dont get the point.

A shooting unit may be overpriced, but most of the time it will get its job done. Melee units on the other hand not so much. Thats the entire problem. Many melee units pay a premium for cool weapons and rules, yet will most of the time not be able to use them, cause they either get killed before they reach melee, or get blocked by something which doesnt care about their weapons. Specialized melee units need to be cheap. A Lascannon Pred can always shoot its best target, a Bloodthirster will beat down cheap chaff units most of the time.

ccs 765760 10239360 wrote:

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

Ok, but not all melee centri armies have good shoting. What am I suppose to shot the opposing army with, when I play GK. My army has no uber shoting units, the special weapons have np ap or d2 or higher. And because of cost I don't get a lot of shoting weapons to begin with. In melee, if I could reach it and pin the enemy, I would at least be able to kill stuff.
GW would have to rework all GK shoting weapons, probably stratagems and units costs too, for GK to be able to even clear chaff units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Drager wrote:
Melee is prevalent at top tables now, far more than it has been in a long time. Grotesques, Smashcaptains, Genestealers, Green Tide, Catachan Guard and Knights all have a lot of melee. In fact, I'd say most armies that are pure shooting will probably lose to any competitive list as it will get meleed to death. Just as most armies that are pure melee will lose to a competitive list. This seems fine.

People who say 'melee is totally useless' generally mean either 'my 5th ed melee army I haven't updated at all can't win anymore so that means melee must be useless!', 'my favorite melee unit isn't very good anymore, so all melee must be useless!', or 'my 100% melee space marine/DE/CSM/Necron/Tau army doesn't do very well, so all melee must be useless!

Ok, so lets say for my GK, where is the good shoting stuff? because 20+pts stormbolters don't really work in 8th ed. close to 50pts stormbolters don't work either. I wouldn't mind, if GW gave GK the option to not buy nemezis weapons. Melee tax on 1A models is mind blowing bad on highcost models. And yes, from what I was told GW 8th ed codex is a reprint of the 8th ed index and the 7th or 6th ed codex. The 5th ed was was awesome, but for reason GW guted it. I don't know why I have not played at that time.

The reason basic marines don't get bolt rifles is that GW still thinks marines are the most popular army, and having the most popular army shaving AP off itself during Marine vs Marine battles would make the Power Armor save pointless.

Plus look at what it would do to Chaos Marines.all it would do is make Invuls even more powerful. Nope. Sorry.

 Jidmah wrote:
"They're literally the same model except one is more decorated." summarizes 90% of the space marine model range

This has been a problem for quite some time.

 Jidmah wrote:
"They're literally the same model except one is more decorated." summarizes 90% of the space marine model range

Very true, but at least Sternguard can get a super different loadout to various Marine units.

Nothing is unique between the Ven Dread and regular one as they have the same exact loadouts if you wanted them too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The whole "primaris have no options" spiel is hilarious. That was done intentionally to prune the massive amount of options SM have in comparison to other armies. How many types of dreadnoughts do you guys get again?

The classic
The venerable dread
Iron clad
Contemptor dread
The new redemptor dread

That's not even including the FW ones or chapter specific, which I'm not familiar with so hopefully someone else can help with that, but there's at least 6 more there

Let's not pretend the Ven Dread is its own entry. Otherwise yeah there's a lot.

I don't have to pretend, my books specifically list it as such. Why do you believe thy aren't?

Not only that, I'm pretty sure that GW sells two different kits, the standard Dread and the Ven Dread. They are absolutely tho different entries.

It's the same bloody model. It's ALWAYS just been an upgrade to the standard one, which is why I'm not sure why the regular entry exists at this point.

It actually is two different kits. There's a lot of cross-compatibility between the sprues, but they are distinctly different and you cannot build a regular dread out of the contents of the Venerable Dread kit.

They do have all the same weapon options even though the options you can actually build are split between the two kits for some bizarre reason.

Why can't you? They're literally the same model except one is more decorated.

Because the decorated pieces are not optional. The extra decorations are molded in, and there are no non-decorated pieces to use instead.

I'm going to agree that the normal dred and ven dred are essentially interchangeable. I own a ven dread that I pretty much always run as a normal dread just so my companies two dreadnaughts look different.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

“Dedicated to shooting...” citiation needed. Melee is not only an iconic part of the game and setting, but more unit stats are for melee than shooting, and more of the basic game rules deal with melee instead of shooting. There are also armies whose army bonuses and in some cases near entire roster are only relevant for close combat, so your stance is that the people that play those armies can go sit and spin?

Citation: 30 years of this game & its ever increasing #s & types of crazy shooting weapons.

No. My stance is not that people who play CC oriented/melee heavy armies can go sit & spin. It's that many of them should bitch less & learn to play better.
And for those who play Demons (and this includes myself as I own a Khorne demon army)? They need to accept that they've chosen to play this game with a distinct handicap & that's going to lower their win ratio.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The reason basic marines don't get bolt rifles is that GW still thinks marines are the most popular army, and having the most popular army shaving AP off itself during Marine vs Marine battles would make the Power Armor save pointless.

Plus look at what it would do to Chaos Marines.all it would do is make Invuls even more powerful. Nope. Sorry.

I think SM popularity is the reason why GW doesn't want them (and they shouldn't) to be particularly competitive. Because otherwise we'll have even more marine armies at the tables and 40k becomes basically 30k. Now, I'd love more competitive SM but unfortunately this is an edition in which players, especially imperium ones but also chaos, are highly encouraged to soup. With a soup SM are already upper mid tiers, if not top tiers. If soups were illegal in matched games I'd really like buffed and improved SM, but at the moment I think imperium soups are already too powerful and I don't want them to have even more competitive options. Unless tons of AM stuff, knights and the immortal custodes HQ get a significant nerf of course, in that case buffed SM could be acceptable. But I'm sure it won't happen.

 Blackie wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The reason basic marines don't get bolt rifles is that GW still thinks marines are the most popular army, and having the most popular army shaving AP off itself during Marine vs Marine battles would make the Power Armor save pointless.

Plus look at what it would do to Chaos Marines.all it would do is make Invuls even more powerful. Nope. Sorry.

I think SM popularity is the reason why GW doesn't want them (and they shouldn't) to be particularly competitive. Because otherwise we'll have even more marine armies at the tables and 40k becomes basically 30k. Now, I'd love more competitive SM but unfortunately this is an edition in which players, especially imperium ones but also chaos, are highly encouraged to soup. With a soup SM are already upper mid tiers, if not top tiers. If soups were illegal in matched games I'd really like buffed and improved SM, but at the moment I think imperium soups are already too powerful and I don't want them to have even more competitive options. Unless tons of AM stuff, knights and the immortal custodes HQ get a significant nerf of course, in that case buffed SM could be acceptable. But I'm sure it won't happen.

Just to clarify, SM aren't themselves in the upper mid tiers in soup, SM are included in upper-mid tier soup armies. It seems like a subtle distinction, but it's the difference between a Space marine army with some guard allies(which is not a top tier force) and a Guard/Knight army with a couple of smash captains and some scouts that is top tier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm going to agree that the normal dred and ven dred are essentially interchangeable. I own a ven dread that I pretty much always run as a normal dread just so my companies two dreadnaughts look different.

Yeap. No one will notice or care if you do or do not have all the extra fiddly bits. A dreadnoughts a dreadnought, the only thing anyone is gonna care about is whether it hits on a 2 or a 3.

ccs wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

ccs wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yaknow, every time someone suggest melee is useless I just laugh considering I find uses for melee with my Tau.
Heck, I initiate charges nearly every other match.

If freaking TAU can find uses for opportunity assault with units who are laughable at it, a "generalist" unit sure can find, and a melee oriented unit sure has uses.

The problem is the melee dudes who wants "ALL MELEE ALL THE TIME!" like they are a khorne army. and that's just dumb, even khone has guns.

Like others have said, there's a difference between charging someone to stop them doing anything next turn and charging someone in order to actually kill them. I suspect as a Tau player you're doing the former, whereas the latter is what most people are referring to when they talk about melee being useless. See, when you have specialist units that are costed based on their melee abilities and those melee abilities don't ever get to be used effectively because of how the game is designed, that can cause some saltiness.

Maybe the flaw doesn't rest with the melee units, but with the people playing them. Perhaps people aiming to kill units need to adjust their plan of attack. Recognize that this is a game dedicated to shooting each other with sci-fi guns. So instead of slamming into full strength units & expecting to kill them all with swords/claws/teeth? Try shooting the piss out of them 1st/as the CC unit closes. And then charge into melee to mop them up.
I know, not the most original tactic. But it's been working for me in 40k, & a lot of other minis games, for decades.

“Dedicated to shooting...” citiation needed. Melee is not only an iconic part of the game and setting, but more unit stats are for melee than shooting, and more of the basic game rules deal with melee instead of shooting. There are also armies whose army bonuses and in some cases near entire roster are only relevant for close combat, so your stance is that the people that play those armies can go sit and spin?

Citation: 40 years of this game & its ever increasing #s & types of crazy shooting weapons.

No. My stance is not that people who play CC oriented/melee heavy armies can go sit & spin. It's that many of them should bitch less & learn to play better.
And for those who play Demons (and this includes myself as I own a Khorne demon army)? They need to accept that they've chosen to play this game with a distinct handicap & that's going to lower their win ratio.

Yes clearly the issue is melee players, just like the issue in 3rd was shooting players, and the issue in 7th was non-deathstar players. Maybe instead of having armies that give a distinct handicap we could maybe I dunno improve that part of the game?

ccs 765760 10240386 wrote:

Citation: 40 years of this game & its ever increasing #s & types of crazy shooting weapons.

No. My stance is not that people who play CC oriented/melee heavy armies can go sit & spin. It's that many of them should bitch less & learn to play better.
And for those who play Demons (and this includes myself as I own a Khorne demon army)? They need to accept that they've chosen to play this game with a distinct handicap & that's going to lower their win ratio.

But what if the armies are just not fun to play, and you can't learn to play them better. To get a "fair" fight vs an opposing army, three things have to happen, the opponent has to be incompatent, the terrain has to favour the GK player and the army opposing the GK has to be bad build. With demons you can at least get to summon and charge stuff, with GK no matter if you try to shot or melee with them, you can offten get tabled without doing anything. I had games where I killed less then 300pts of opposing army, and could achive non of the objectives, because of how fast the opposing army was killing my dudes. The win ratio with GK, if one uses tournament data is 0, You can't lower your win rate when your at 0.

GK are garbage, but that's not a problem with the game that's a problem with GK.