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Karol wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The tac marine statline is dead. It tries to live in an almost non-existent balancing space between a battle sister and an intercessor and fails miserably.

Yeah, and Intercessors aren't even good

They need some pro active rule to be ok. If they had exploding somethin on +6 to hit for example, or being able to shot twice if they don't move

Shoot twice? That is basically every faction got by certain ways. The only factions who don't get any of those is marines and Custodes, because the GW think Marine hitting on 3s / 2s is "worth more than they pay for 13ppm (marines) or 40ppm (Custodes)"

Despite the fact that the generally low volume of shots and suffering negative modifiers kills off the marine shooting. The only thing that would make marine shoot twice OP is Guilliman, and GW assumes that all marine lists will have every unit enjoy the maximum buff of this OP Primarch when they design marines codexes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-chapter-approved-matched-playgw-homepage-post-1/

Looks like a few leaks were right already.

hmm so it is only points costs. I am happy, because I am using paladins and termintors. I wonder what the strike players are going to do though, if their stuff didn't go down in points.

Am also not sure about eldar getting more usable models, they are already too good to begin with, and now GW is giving them access to 100pts drops on big walkers. The GM NDK better cost 200pts or less, if the WK costs 300pts.

Karol wrote:
Am also not sure about eldar getting more usable models, they are already too good to begin with, and now GW is giving them access to 100pts drops on big walkers. The GM NDK better cost 200pts or less, if the WK costs 300pts.

Don't think of it like Eldar getting more usable models. Think of it as a few Eldar player getting tricking into swapping out SEVERAL better units to field an WK that wasn't in their list at all before, but is still just as easy to take down as it was before.
Because that is what might happen. Even at ~400 after weapons, there are better things an Eldar list can take. This points drop just makes them viable for less-competitive games.
It's a win-win for all involved.

-

The Eight look so badass in that pic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The Eight look so badass in that pic.

If only there was a plastic Farsight

With a huge point chop, the Wraithknight becomes vaguely interesting...but it's still woeful compared to a Knight so you won't see them show up on many tables.

I hope they're cheap enough for me to try in narrative games, but I'm not sold yet.

 Elbows wrote:
With a huge point chop, the Wraithknight becomes vaguely interesting...but it's still woeful compared to a Knight so you won't see them show up on many tables.

I hope they're cheap enough for me to try in narrative games, but I'm not sold yet.

If I get the chance, I want to try out a 3 WK list. Should give a good idea as to whether they're worth anything.
Might also be interesting if Alaitoc becomes cover. Cheaper WKs with 2+ armour could be quite interesting.

-

Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Darsath wrote:
Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Knights don't really have psyker support though. Take things for the army that they're in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Knights don't really have psyker support though. Take things for the army that they're in.

Knights can easily have Psycher support. You don't play Knights as your only army. Thought that kind of went without question though, as I'm mostly comparing the roles of the models.

 Galef wrote:

Karol wrote:
Am also not sure about eldar getting more usable models, they are already too good to begin with, and now GW is giving them access to 100pts drops on big walkers. The GM NDK better cost 200pts or less, if the WK costs 300pts.

Don't think of it like Eldar getting more usable models. Think of it as a few Eldar player getting tricking into swapping out SEVERAL better units to field an WK that wasn't in their list at all before, but is still just as easy to take down as it was before.
Because that is what might happen. Even at ~400 after weapons, there are better things an Eldar list can take. This points drop just makes them viable for less-competitive games.
It's a win-win for all involved.

-

It is much better then an NDK and it is suppose to cost ~300pts, an NDK costs around 250pts and the GK unit has to support in form of doom or soul burst. From my GK perspective a 300pts WK is very playable. I understand that it is not 10 reapers, but not being 10 reapers can be said about many units in the game. No idea why eldar players would want their WK to be equal to an imperial knight. That would be as if marine players asked for a ultramarine castellan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Knights don't really have psyker support though. Take things for the army that they're in.

Knights can easily have Psycher support. You don't play Knights as your only army. Thought that kind of went without question though, as I'm mostly comparing the roles of the models.

Can have and will have 100% of time, is a big difference. Plus you can't really compare eldar psychic powers to anything other factions have.

Darsath wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Knights don't really have psyker support though. Take things for the army that they're in.

Knights can easily have Psycher support. You don't play Knights as your only army. Thought that kind of went without question though, as I'm mostly comparing the roles of the models.

The keywords aren’t really there to Prescience or Nightshroud a Knight. There aren’t all that many debuffs that ignore the keyword problem.

Darsath wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Yeah, I don't see Wraithknights going very far with Knights doing a "similar-but-better" job. Without the strong invulnerable save of the Imperial Knight, I don't see them being popular. Especially with the subpar weaponry ontop of that.

Knights don't really have psyker support though. Take things for the army that they're in.

Knights can easily have Psycher support. You don't play Knights as your only army. Thought that kind of went without question though, as I'm mostly comparing the roles of the models.

Yes people do, I really wish people would stop assuming everything should be balanced around always having undercosted Guard stuff around to screen, psychic buff and give CP and etc.

Not everyone is playing power up supreme brigade with flavour of the month bolt on unit to be supercharged by Guard then swapped out when it's nerfed.

Even at 300+ points instead of 400+ points I just struggle to think that two Assault 2 guns is worthwhile, or the 2D6 cannon which is basically a shittier version of a gatling cannon from a normal Knight. Ignoring the somewhat meaningless shoulder guns. Maybe a sword and shield is the way to go, but I hate the idea of combat-centric super-heavies. I just see very little to get excited about.

I think at that price they are fair for what they do. Any lower and they will start to enter "too good for the points" territory.

Problem is IK needing a price increase.

Its still not worth it, without guide a 2 HWC cant even kill a Rhino on average, you'll have to re-roll dice to insure you will come close to killing it. We are talking about a 400+pts model meant to kill things like Rhinos and it cant even kill 1 72pts model without invuls.

Im more happy that i can take the melee one and Skathach into fun games without being handicap by 400pts, now its only 300pts handicap lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its still not worth it, without guide a 2 HWC cant even kill a Rhino on average, you'll have to re-roll dice to insure you will come close to killing it. We are talking about a 400+pts model meant to kill things like Rhinos and it cant even kill 1 72pts model without invuls.

Im more happy that i can take the melee one and Skathach into fun games without being handicap by 400pts, now its only 300pts handicap lol.

And when you shoot a RFBC at a Rhino what happens?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its still not worth it, without guide a 2 HWC cant even kill a Rhino on average, you'll have to re-roll dice to insure you will come close to killing it. We are talking about a 400+pts model meant to kill things like Rhinos and it cant even kill 1 72pts model without invuls.

Im more happy that i can take the melee one and Skathach into fun games without being handicap by 400pts, now its only 300pts handicap lol.

And when you shoot a RFBC at a Rhino what happens?

Sorry, what gun? I just dont recognize the abbreviation.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sorry, what gun? I just dont recognize the abbreviation.

Sorry - Rapid Fire Battle Cannon

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its still not worth it, without guide a 2 HWC cant even kill a Rhino on average, you'll have to re-roll dice to insure you will come close to killing it. We are talking about a 400+pts model meant to kill things like Rhinos and it cant even kill 1 72pts model without invuls.

Im more happy that i can take the melee one and Skathach into fun games without being handicap by 400pts, now its only 300pts handicap lol.

And when you shoot a RFBC at a Rhino what happens?

Sorry, what gun? I just dont recognize the abbreviation.

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon

It actually stands for regular fire battlecannon now.

Martel732 wrote:
It actually stands for regular fire battlecannon now.

Yeah the Rapid Fire version which actually avarages less shots than a cattachan normal Battle Cannon
Steroids making your tank shoot faster in the 41st Millennium.

2 LRBT with 2 shots each, is 6.22 wounds to a Rhino. The WK with 2HWC is 7.78 damage. So its about 1.5 damage less.

That is without any traits or stratagems/powers.

That's also without the Knight's other ranged weapon firing.

Also dont forget, BC are 72" vs HWC of 36", LRBT also have side guns already priced into what i had, so the Knight would be anorher 20-30pts more for those same extra guns.

But where it matters, WK can have 250pts of HQ"s making it re-roll everything, the LRBT can be Catachan.

Its really close from what i can see, The knight tho can move much easier thats the big advantage.

Even without a sword the Knight can still melee with feet just fine in a pinch.

Just a note from reading more current rules leaks and such, it seems the change to -1 army traits is not going to be first turn blanket cover for the army, but an additional +1 to save for being in cover.

This makes sense as having a blanket cover bonus would invalidate the new stratagem they just release granting cover first turn if your going second.


Now you can pop the strat for a +2 save bonus on most of your army which is statistically much closer to -1 to hit in terms of effectiveness for most models.

Also means you don't get anything for standing out in the open, which is perfectly fine in my opinion as you shouldn't be getting any kind of defensive bonus for being out in the open anyway.

So as long as your in cover you get a +1 to save.

That will make ignore cover weapons/traits much more viable.

But that also means many things cant use it (or wont gain the benefit as easily or cant even gain it)

Eradicator nova cannon may be worth considering now. It's just a shame that flamers don't ignore cover anymore. If they did, an advancing fireball tallarn eradicator could be a laugh.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
So as long as your in cover you get a +1 to save.

That will make ignore cover weapons/traits much more viable.

But that also means many things cant use it (or wont gain the benefit as easily or cant even gain it)

Hopefully they did something about the fact thay vehicles just don't get cover on most tables.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rockfish wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-chapter-approved-matched-playgw-homepage-post-1/

Looks like a few leaks were right already.

To be fair, this stuff was pretty obvious.