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I think GW was just keen to further advertise Knights.

Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .

Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.

Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.

Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.

Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.

If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.

And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.

I'm hoping that the point changes (Basic infantry more expensive, vehicles cheaper) is a game wide change they'll be pushing out soon.

We're looking at these "inane" changes in a vaccum but it may make sense when Guardsmen start to cost 6 points and knights cost an arm and a leg, as well as other factions dont have terrible transports.

That being said there are clearly some crazy changes in the codex, KMKs being worse and costing 50% more, Flashgitz coming up and costing more and the obvious and not-so-subtle teleport everything build, which I personally think is gakky game design that subtracts agency from players.

TL;DR Cost changes may make no sense but wait for the CA, as they would've been designed around the same time as the codex.

As a chaos player I'd just like to point out that I've never felt like chaos has been neglected as a whole. Maybe imperials get some more releases, but that's to be expected. As far as 8th edition goes, Chaos is in a great position and hopefully orks join us because of this new codex.

Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions.Someone is going to end up at the bottom.

That is true. Someone always is at the very bottom, the question is the size of the gap between the top armies and the bottom armies. Lets say the difference between the best sm army and some fringe build is 5-10%. Then it is no problem to pick the weaker army. Specially if army esthetics play a role in picking up an army.

The problems start when the gap turns in to something like 50% or 75%, because then someone who picks the odd army will struggle with the best army possible to play against casual lists from a good codex. and when the gap becomes bigger then 50% it gets very unfun for the weak army player, because then his opponents have to bring bad armies, play bad and even then they may accidently win.

I know little about orcs other then them being an army that playse a swarm that goes to time every game. But I think what the orc player worry about is the gap between their update stuff and what is considered a normal army in w40k right now. And I think they are in their right to do so. Because if the orc army does not produce a good or normal army, it is not like orcs are going to get an update in 2-3 months with a new bach of rules and models. Also considering that most orc players are ancient players that waited years for their army to get better, the fear of having to wait another 2-3 years for an update may be real. It maybe blinding them to some sort of good, new type of list too, but it is not like the fear is irrational. GW did make bad books in the past.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Someone has, and they got tabled turn 3

The more I read this book the more it's apparent that the guy was not familiar with his options and was just blinded by the Stompa.

I don't care about that so much though - it was just a dude having fun playing a game attempting to showcase new stuff.

Hence the smiley, and the sentence that it preceded:

"It probably doesn't reflect much on the overall capability of the dex tho."

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't care about that so much though - it was just a dude having fun playing a game attempting to showcase new stuff.

Playing for fun? How very bloody dare he!!!

 SHUPPET wrote:


Hence the smiley, and the sentence that it preceded:

"It probably doesn't reflect much on the overall capability of the dex tho."

Oh yea I wasn't trying to rake you over the coals or anything.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


Hence the smiley, and the sentence that it preceded:

"It probably doesn't reflect much on the overall capability of the dex tho."

Oh yea I wasn't trying to rake you over the coals or anything.

no doubt, just trying to make sure you know i agree

 Eonfuzz wrote:

That being said there are clearly some crazy changes in the codex, KMKs being worse and costing 50% more, Flashgitz coming up and costing more and the obvious and not-so-subtle teleport everything build, which I personally think is gakky game design that subtracts agency from players.

I want to keep my optimism in light of the nice things observed in the previews. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to comment this (still, I think it's also reasonable to understand the mistrust Ork players have grown to have in all these years - can't one understand them?).

I agree wholeheartedly with this point of view (bolded). My fear is that this will lead to more gimmicks instead of a more organic approach to the game. There is no movement, just position and hope for a good roll helped by mechanics. A coin toss, if you will. A gimmick that will leave the army in the dust once the eventual nerf or counter is implemented.

Nonetheless, we could still have room for more in the upcoming codex. Fingers crossed.

Imagine thinking that GW Twitch games are reflective of competitive balance.

Karol wrote:

Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions.Someone is going to end up at the bottom.

That is true. Someone always is at the very bottom, the question is the size of the gap between the top armies and the bottom armies. Lets say the difference between the best sm army and some fringe build is 5-10%. Then it is no problem to pick the weaker army. Specially if army esthetics play a role in picking up an army.

The problems start when the gap turns in to something like 50% or 75%, because then someone who picks the odd army will struggle with the best army possible to play against casual lists from a good codex. and when the gap becomes bigger then 50% it gets very unfun for the weak army player, because then his opponents have to bring bad armies, play bad and even then they may accidently win.

I know little about orcs other then them being an army that playse a swarm that goes to time every game. But I think what the orc player worry about is the gap between their update stuff and what is considered a normal army in w40k right now. And I think they are in their right to do so. Because if the orc army does not produce a good or normal army, it is not like orcs are going to get an update in 2-3 months with a new bach of rules and models. Also considering that most orc players are ancient players that waited years for their army to get better, the fear of having to wait another 2-3 years for an update may be real. It maybe blinding them to some sort of good, new type of list too, but it is not like the fear is irrational. GW did make bad books in the past.

Just because there has been one case of a greentide player slow playing his way to victory, doesn't mean that ork player=slow player. Let's put this meme to rest, it's direspectful for the ork players.

meleti wrote:Imagine thinking that GW Twitch games are reflective of competitive balance.

Did... did anyone? Or do you just have severe issues with comprehension?

Table wrote:
Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .

Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.

Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.

Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.

Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.

If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.

And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.

I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.

ERJAK wrote:
I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.

Bold of you to pretend anyone is whinier than Loyalist Marine players.

ERJAK wrote:

Table wrote:
Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .

Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.

Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.

Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.

Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.

If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.

And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.

I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.

Yea but INQUISITION aren't a faction so they don't belong on this list.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.

Bold of you to pretend anyone is whinier than Loyalist Marine players.

Now you just hold on there one millenia or so there Sonny Jim, Szarekh would like a quiet whisper.

at least the Imperium has Friends, Necrons want to soup up we have to work with other crazy Dynasties !

I THINK you'll find that Xenos players are the whiniest, as we had our most golden season in the sun as the first formation codex out the gate in 7th, and have since fallen the furthest.

Orks don't need to be individually terrible and were not for years. Choppas turning Tactical Dreadnought Armour into sturdy cardboard, burnas cutting right through marines in melee, bikes screening units behind them, bosses punching tanks to death - that all existed. For whole editions. There's zero reason GW couldn't make Ork units actually worth their points again instead of "balancing" by racing to the bottom of the points pile (or not).

Orks are DANGEROUS natural born warriros and soldiers. And often there are hordes of them. But they shouldn't be only dangerous AS a horde of hundreds of throwaway models screening a few actual threats. Of course this is almost exactly what GW wants to sell box after box of stuff, for every army. Points down, down, down, model count up. Understandable, but misguided, I feel. Model-count bloat was a huge factor in WHFB's death.

If they'd make a good codex that allow for rhino rushing truck boyz, dread mobs, Nob spam MSU "elite" armies, gunlines, weirdboy waaghs etc. they'd likely sell more and more expensive stuff than boxes and boxes of boyz (which are also cheap as chips on ebay et all) to foot slog or a few walkers to tellyport to each regular player that wants to be able to all of it if he choses to. They'd also potentially sell those different builds to the hardcore tourney crowd each time a FAQ or new Codex makes build X a tiny bit better.

Maybe they actually tried and failed. Maybe the lack of former staff that were huge Ork fans (Adrian Wood, Andy Chambers, tons of other WD and studio members showing their Orks in battle reports and articles) means they actually don't get player input from someone who cares or knows what Orks could be and used to be. The GSC "leak" talks about one designer crunching numbers and testing in his time off for better pricing in the codex. I very much doubt that was the case with Orks. Somehow GW mismanaged one really popular army that many people had some models from just because to something that barely hits the tables, is not popular even with their game designers and still gets questionable rules.

Their sales tactics are pretty weird, too. They could've used the reboxing with 32mm to double stormboyz/lootas with some less than 100% price increase. At least they could have bundeled the mek gunz that have close to 1:1 currency/points ratio in way too many currencies despite you being expected to bring several.

The only branch of GW studio that seems as passionate about Orks as they were 15 years ago is the design team. Outside of the painboy and the ancient the Ork range is solid to pure gold.

While there is alot that I am super pumped about, I am not that happy with a couple of things.
1) not only was the Thrakka new PrimeOrk model falce (GW just put out a resin version of the old one for pre-order), we also got a nerf on him with a 20 point increase in cost. No one was playing his to begin with.
2) GW decided that Orks have too good of saves to begin with as well as too many characters with invulns so they took away the KFF option from the normal Big Mek. Now if you want a KFF you need to run a Gorkanaut, Meka Dread, or Big Mek in Power Armor.

C'mon guys. As many of you I was very tired of index orks. It was a strong one, but in a codex world. There were not fun to play and not fun to play against. To the point I was really close to let the boyz down and start a new project.

But I just went through an extensive review of the codex, and honestly things are exactly as I hoped it was. It's not stupidly overpowered but it seems to be fully playable and enjoyable. With the different Kulturs you can build many different lists, fun, fluffy and dangerous (speed freaks, mek dakkaline, green tide, heavy walkers...).

I just don't understand you guys. I came on dakka thinking that ork players would rejoice over the codex.

And on the behalf of myself only, I just want to say to non-orks players that I' sorry about the crazy whining. Personally I'm a happy git.

Ive said exactly the same thing. The bigger stuff gets ie starting at nobz the points cost don't reflect Orks now over costed points costed stuff.
I do 7th and my gorkanaught got a rewrite, why
I done a quick experiment with dice only
1. Land raider Typhoon got 18 hits out of 22 (bolters/assault cannon)
2 gorkanaught with 3D6 shots(gees) big shooters and rokkits got 8 hits
The points cost is virtually the same though.
GW does hate ORks

 IronSlug wrote:

I just don't understand you guys. I came on dakka thinking that ork players would rejoice over the codex.

This is Dakka, where fun comes to die

 Binabik15 wrote:
Maybe the lack of former staff that were huge Ork fans (Adrian Wood, Andy Chambers, tons of other WD and studio members showing their Orks in battle reports and articles) means they actually don't get player input from someone who cares or knows what Orks could be and used to be.

The only branch of GW studio that seems as passionate about Orks as they were 15 years ago is the design team. Outside of the painboy and the ancient the Ork range is solid to pure gold.

While I really disagree with this "woe is me, the codex is falling" - this was the major issue.
Back in 2nd/3rd Orks were the second 40k army after Marines. They got new kits, plenty of face time in White Dwarf etc (which was arguably more important because the internet was less of a thing).

Then at some point this died. GW has said they do codexes when someone has inspiration to take the project on. Its clear that this inspiration disappeared for a decade.

Who knows maybe the desing team is super small, like 5 people and 4 of them play eldar of some sort. This way the eldar rules they crank up are at worse good as ally to other eldar lists. While other stuff is just copy pasted to save time working on some more eldar stuff. They also seem to have a huge fetish as big kits go. They try to give them very good rules when they come out. They can nerf them later on, but I don't think there were many big models that entered the game being not worth buying.

Yeah GW sure do love Eldar so much that's why the range has more outdated/old models than Orks at this point.

Just to chime in. Remember folks, Orks were, are and always will be the true and only NPC race. So the Codex is totally fine.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Yeah GW sure do love Eldar so much that's why the range has more outdated/old models than Orks at this point.

If only their rules were as outdated and not a pain in the arse to play against.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:


The codex isn't even out yet. Who here has played a game with orks yet? Noone.

Someone has, and they got tabled turn 3

Wow, turn three? Wish my Marines consistently made it to turn three without getting tabled.

Salty? No, why do you ask?

licclerich wrote:
Ive said exactly the same thing. The bigger stuff gets ie starting at nobz the points cost don't reflect Orks now over costed points costed stuff.
I do 7th and my gorkanaught got a rewrite, why
I done a quick experiment with dice only
1. Land raider Typhoon got 18 hits out of 22 (bolters/assault cannon)
2 gorkanaught with 3D6 shots(gees) big shooters and rokkits got 8 hits
The points cost is virtually the same though.
GW does hate ORks

Gorkanaut is straight 18 shots now. Maybe you should wait until you have the book.

And I presume you mean the Landspeeder not the Landraider, which has considerably less durability?

 Jidmah wrote:
Because they have a machine in their basement that turns nerd-rage into money.

The true description of styrene injection moulding


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

licclerich wrote:


Gorkanaut is straight 18 shots now. Maybe you should wait until you have the book.

That would be crazy. Better to rage now, and then gloat later if we are proven wrong.