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Sunny Side Up wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Not really.

CA might slap another 100 points on the Castellan, and he's probably still going to win LVO (and yes, I know, Brandon lost the Castellan turn 1 in the final game .. still forced the Eldar guy to shoot everything and over-extend himself).

No surprises there.

He'd probably need an 300 to 400 point hike to be mathematically roughly equal in damage & resiliance to, say, Predators or something, point for point, which will never happen.

And Guardsman desperately need another 1-2 point, probably more a 4 point hike to be evenly balanced with power armour infantry, which will also never happen.


So whatever. It'll remain broken for a while (which doesn't mean other things out there might not need adjustments also).

]

A proposal for 8 point guardsmen... You can't even make a anti-guard strawman when this is the type of gak that gets posted here on the regular.

Guardsmen are like kryptonite to Dakka posters. You're not allowed to get close to them without deploying "THEY NEED TO COST X OR Y MORE POINTS" or else they'll steal your strength and unpaint your armies.

 bullyboy wrote:
One thing that I hate that soup does, it makes a singular unit seem OP whereas when played within it's native force, it's just a good unit. In this instance, Skyweavers are now taken to take on armour and knights (due to bypassing void shield), and they do it really well. In a pure Harlequin army they are not really a problem, but will probably get nerfed now because of their use in Aeldari soup. This is not the only example.

Soup isn’t to blame for a unit seeming OP. An OP unit is the reason a unit is seen as OP.

If a unit is OP in a soup list it is almost always OP in a mono list. The soup aspect often just highlights those OP units because competitive soup lists by their very nature aim to take the best units from a multitude of dexes.

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

It's because the standings in the OP were incorrect originally. Not sure if it was because of an error in the app or something but at first it looked like AM didn't place at all.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
One thing that I hate that soup does, it makes a singular unit seem OP whereas when played within it's native force, it's just a good unit. In this instance, Skyweavers are now taken to take on armour and knights (due to bypassing void shield), and they do it really well. In a pure Harlequin army they are not really a problem, but will probably get nerfed now because of their use in Aeldari soup. This is not the only example.

Soup isn’t to blame for a unit seeming OP. An OP unit is the reason a unit is seen as OP.

If a unit is OP in a soup list it is almost always OP in a mono list. The soup aspect often just highlights those OP units because competitive soup lists by their very nature aim to take the best units from a multitude of dexes.

This isn't true though. It would only be true if there was zero cross faction synergy - either explicitly or implicitly.

A Knight with bags of CP for instance is a lot better than a Knight without.
Harlequin bikers especially benefit from doom when it comes to taking down Knights.
Etc.

If you want 8 point guardsmen, what the feth are vets, and god emperor forbid, Tempestus Scions worth to you?

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Most probably because there's one IG/IK list up there, and a whole lot of Eldar.

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Go on Twitch, look for FrontlineGaming, watch the game.
The 'Obviously-OP' eldar soup killed the Castellan turn 1 and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged while 3 Hellhounds suicide exploded into the eldar army.

The table was 100% the reason that Guard list won. If the Eldar could shoot and charge as normal they could (would) have won the tournament.

Yep.. thats one of the reasons i dont like ITC. I dont like their house rule for ground floor buildings and walls. It changes the meta, not fixes it.

I'm trying to understand the combo with Straken + 9 Bullgryns. Is he giving the Bullgryns +1A with Straken ? They don't have the Catachan keyword, this shouldn't work.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm trying to understand the combo with Straken + 9 Bullgryns. Is he giving the Bullgryns +1A with Straken ? They don't have the Catachan keyword, this shouldn't work.

The Priest buffs the Bullgryns + the Guard.
Straken further buffs the Guard.

I'd be curious as to what the highest placing Dark Angels list was.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'd be curious as to what the highest placing Dark Angels list was.

35. BA Scout BN with smash and mephiston

DA BN with Sammael, Talonmaster, 3x scouts, 4 man squad of plasma inceptors, darkshroud

3x dark talon

RogueApiary wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'd be curious as to what the highest placing Dark Angels list was.

35. BA Scout BN with smash and mephiston

DA BN with Sammael, Talonmaster, 3x scouts, 4 man squad of plasma inceptors, darkshroud

3x dark talon

That's basically what I expected, thanks for sharing!

Seems the Azrael Hellblaster blob is proving, as I suspected, to be inferior to other DA builds.

 Ordana wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm trying to understand the combo with Straken + 9 Bullgryns. Is he giving the Bullgryns +1A with Straken ? They don't have the Catachan keyword, this shouldn't work.

The Priest buffs the Bullgryns + the Guard.
Straken further buffs the Guard.

So it allows the bullgryns to output 39x S5 attacks? And all of the guardsmen to swing 3 times each? I'm not very familiar with IG.

Priest gives +1 attack
Straker gives +1 attack to only Catachan units, but its all catachan.

So its +2 attacks, this is for all units within 6", that means IG.

Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

 barboggo wrote:
Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

I believe he only buffs <Regiment> but i dont play guard, so i can be 100%, he gives 2 orders and buffs all Catachan for sure

 barboggo wrote:
Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

Nope, only the Priest buffs the Bullgryn. It's something like 5 attacks each on the charge with 6 on the Bone 'ead. So 45 STR 7 AP-1 2D attacks that hit on 3's on the charge. That's 10 avg damage on a Knight or 10 dead MEQ if someone was taking a squad of 10 MEQ for some weird reason. 15 D to a Predator equivalent though, so that's nice.

 barboggo wrote:
Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

Nope, he only buffs Catachan. Ogryn just have a ton of attacks base so with a priest nearby they hit like a train.

barboggo wrote:Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

Nope. Just the Priest can buff them.

Bullgryns as is are pretty damn strong though, although I think the latest faq changed their shields somewhat (I think it just explicitly stated the +2 shield does not boost invulnerable saves, but not 100% on that).

Amishprn86 wrote:

 barboggo wrote:
Does Straken buff the bullgryns?

I believe he only buffs <Regiment> but i dont play guard, so i can be 100%, he gives 2 orders and buffs all Catachan for sure

You are correct. His rules specifically note models from Catachan units within 6" of him give the bonus attack.

Edit: Whoops, in the time it took to type that two others responded to that.

What was that about Nick Rose and Daniel Olivas almost getting in a fight?

Anyone have a link to pictures from the event?

What did the 40-wraith list? Just hide and jump out of cover when they can to hit with their short-ranged weapons?

 Ordana wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Go on Twitch, look for FrontlineGaming, watch the game.
The 'Obviously-OP' eldar soup killed the Castellan turn 1 and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged while 3 Hellhounds suicide exploded into the eldar army.

The table was 100% the reason that Guard list won. If the Eldar could shoot and charge as normal they could (would) have won the tournament.

I 100% agree with this, from watching bits of the stream and seeing the table setup. I can’t comment on whether or not all tables were setup like this though.

The stream table had a lot of buildings that were classed as ruins by a lot of people. If the buildings had been classed as being impassable and the “ruins” being the more traditional style of well… ruined building… Then things could have been different. It reminds me of a game I played at an event in July where every terrain piece was essentially a big open building and all my opponent had to do was hide everything inside and be “1” away from the walls”. It is also why, now, whenever I run my Knights, I go for 3 Ironstorm pods and usually a few mortar teams just to ignore LoS.

However, what I personally don’t like, more than all the “I’m in a “ruin” you can’t shoot me for the rest of the game” thing is, all the “this is my intent” that got thrown around in the few games I watched. Sure, if the aim is to be just over 1” away from the building edge, then, make sure you are. It’s just lazy otherwise and deliberately removes any potential counter play from the opponent. Sometimes I wonder how many times “my intent” gets around something not being physically possible in a game of 40k. Sure, it takes a bit of extra time to do and check, but, it’s not exactly difficult to make happen. Sure, intent is perfectly fine to state, and if you tell me your intent is to be 6” from x and 5.9” from y, then, I’d help you measure it out super quick and easy so everything is as it should be. Maybe it is one of the side effects of chess clocks and timed events, with people trying to save as much time as possible.

If all the tables were like the top table, I can 100% see how the Nid player was able to keep a lot of the army alive early on, to then be in a position to just tie everything up. I imagine the same can be said for the 40 Wraith Eldar army. Durability and point cost is irrelevant if you can’t be targeted in the first place.

 Ordana wrote:
...and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged

That sounds remarkably stupid :/

A.T. wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
...and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged

That sounds remarkably stupid :/

It's frustrating, BUT, if you're models are on 25mm bases, you can actually still charge the unit hiding in the building, as 1” is 25.4mm, so, the models will fit. Of course, if you’re rocking 32mm bases then you’ve got no chance unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But then, you have people that’ll try to decide pre-game that the walls are 5mm thick regardless of them only being 2-3mm thick, so you then go back to not being able to charge them.

It's frustrating, BUT, if you're models are on 25mm bases, you can actually still charge the unit hiding in the building, as 1” is 25.4mm, so, the models will fit. Of course, if you’re rocking 32mm bases then you’ve got no chance unfortunately.

This explains why Ork players at my go to store are anything but thrilled. In this case literally making charges impossible is quite frankly extremely annoying.

As for the tables it seems like the logical conclusion that clutered tables seem to favour units which don't want to get shot at and do decently in melee, probably also why that genestealer list was successfull.

My question now is, were all the tables identical? Or were there differences and how massive were they?
Because that would give us more insight then the lists themselves.

Not Online!!! wrote:

It's frustrating, BUT, if you're models are on 25mm bases, you can actually still charge the unit hiding in the building, as 1” is 25.4mm, so, the models will fit. Of course, if you’re rocking 32mm bases then you’ve got no chance unfortunately.

This explains why Ork players at my go to store are anything but thrilled. In this case literally making charges impossible is quite frankly extremely annoying.

As for the tables it seems like the logical conclusion that clutered tables seem to favour units which don't want to get shot at and do decently in melee, probably also why that genestealer list was successfull.

My question now is, were all the tables identical? Or were there differences and how massive were they?
Because that would give us more insight then the lists themselves.

Most ITC events tend to have a table standard, especially at FLG held events, however, I don’t know how good the tables were beyond the 1 we saw on the stream. I expect they were pretty similar, but, a stream table is always a showcase table so likely would have been pushed up to the max.

 Ordana wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Go on Twitch, look for FrontlineGaming, watch the game.
The 'Obviously-OP' eldar soup killed the Castellan turn 1 and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged while 3 Hellhounds suicide exploded into the eldar army.

The table was 100% the reason that Guard list won. If the Eldar could shoot and charge as normal they could (would) have won the tournament.

Epic. Almost as good as the kroot wall my friend showed me once.