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 Ordana wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
So literally no one here is talking about why AM + flavor of the month netted 1st place again in a major tournament?

Why the "obviously-OP" eldar soup STILL couldn't beat this list?

Go on Twitch, look for FrontlineGaming, watch the game.
The 'Obviously-OP' eldar soup killed the Castellan turn 1 and then was powerless as all the Guard hid inside building outside of 1 inch of the wall so they could not be shot or charged while 3 Hellhounds suicide exploded into the eldar army.

The table was 100% the reason that Guard list won. If the Eldar could shoot and charge as normal they could (would) have won the tournament.

Theres the ITC house rules for you. Make units indestructible so the best army can't win.

I feel like a lot of these matches are decided by the terrain and not who's driving the army or what the army contains.

Still better than the regular rules.

Martel732 wrote:
Still better than the regular rules.

With the right terrain you don't need a house rule that breaks the game.

Gotta be honest - if someone tried to pull some nonsense like the above story on me. I'd just start packing up. I'd let them know how I felt about them abusing a made up rule.

What is stupid is reasonable TO would make sure that every building has a door or something so this cant happen.

They dont break the game. Adjudicating terrain is a headache to begin with. Their system is as good as any.

All rules are are made up. There's nothing magical about gw's gak ass rules, either.

Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still better than the regular rules.

With the right terrain you don't need a house rule that breaks the game.

Gotta be honest - if someone tried to pull some nonsense like the above story on me. I'd just start packing up. I'd let them know how I felt about them abusing a made up rule.

What is stupid is reasonable TO would make sure that every building has a door or something so this cant happen.

So very much this. I could understand and potentially live with some kind of enhanced cover that imparts additional saves / hit penalties, but a flat out "nope, I R INVINCIBLE!!!!1!!"?

No way in hell.

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

units inside an enclosed building are (obviously) out of LoS.
Many models are not allowed to enter buildings (like Bikes or Monsters). So if I am inside the building and more then 1" from the wall (so a unit outside cannot be within melee range) I can not be shot at unless it ignores LoS and can't be charged by certain unit types units (like Shining Spears).

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

Essentially, to make a successful charge you have to end within 1” of the target unit.
By putting a squad inside of a ruin/building, but keeping them 1.1” away from the wall the opponent can’t complete the charge because they can’t finish their move inside a wall and thus can’t place their model. You can do this even more so if the “wall” of the ruin is stated to be something stupid like 0.5” thick. This means you only need to be 0.51” away from the inside edge of the wall and then nothing can complete a charge, regardless of base size.

It’s worth noting though, in the first example with a “normal sized” wall, models on 25mm bases should normally be able to fit physically and thus can complete the charge. But then, you can get into arguments about “intent” if a player tries to declare it – so I’d advise to generally tell them you accept their intent BUT it is up to them to place their models correctly, as, if they don’t and it gives you an opportunity to charge, you can still charge.

This is applicable across all styles of play, not just the ITC as it is all surrounding how terrain and charges work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Please, someone explain to me how this untouchable guardsmen in a building thing happens. I'm not familiar with ITC.

units inside an enclosed building are (obviously) out of LoS.
Many models are not allowed to enter buildings (like Bikes or Monsters). So if I am inside the building and more then 1" from the wall (so a unit outside cannot be within melee range) I can not be shot at unless it ignores LoS and can't be charged by certain unit types units (like Shining Spears).

The only thing I will say on buildings, is that most events don’t use any rules for “buildings” and instead either class them as “ruins” or “impassable”. As such, bikes and monsters etc CAN enter them and charge units inside of them just as long as they finish their move on the “ground” floor (unless they have FLY).

 Xenomancers wrote:


I feel like a lot of these matches are decided by the terrain and not who's driving the army or what the army contains.

This is not an inaccurate reflection of many of the most pivotal battles in human history

To be fair, the basic rules for terrain in 8E are...abysmally thin to begin with and need more fleshing out. The terrain rules were gimmicky in this instance, but should have been no surprise to anyone at this level of competition. Certainly no less gimmicky than shennanigans with characters.

The second floor really kills monsters/bikes/IKs.

But the charging unit could hypothetically run around the wall/building to finish the charge or am I misunderstanding the situation?

 Eldarsif wrote:
But the charging unit could hypothetically run around the wall/building to finish the charge or am I misunderstanding the situation?

They put 1-2 units inside and wall off the entire inside of the building so it cannot be entered. If they have a mortars or two inside they can continue to fire it as it doesn't need LoS, and they also then cannot be killed themselves in the process.

If the table doesn't have an open side to the building (they always should, imo) then you basically can't do anything since your base doesn't let you fit.

 Eldarsif wrote:
But the charging unit could hypothetically run around the wall/building to finish the charge or am I misunderstanding the situation?

If there is space behind them/to the side of them and the unit inside has left space, then yes, they can still be charged if the charge roll is big enough. The problem is though, a lot of ruins and builds can easily be filled out with just 10 guardsmen or a couple of units of space marine scouts.

It's only of the reasons why fly in the assault phase needs to come back imo, as right now you have no way of getting over the unit into the space in the middle (if there is space)

I think the answer is just to not have terrain like this.

Its a bit like the 0" charge. If you didn't have buildings where models can perch batman style then step off it wouldn't need a rule.

Correct, they absolutely should not have terrain that allows this. Unfortunately, FLG actively creates and sells Terrain that allows this, so that's unlikely for their major events. I can guarantee you'll be seeing people doing it at the LVO if no changes are made to your ability to do this.

Tyel wrote:
I think the answer is just to not have terrain like this.

Its a bit like the 0" charge. If you didn't have buildings where models can perch batman style then step off it wouldn't need a rule.

It’s potentially an answer yes – basically ensure that if the terrain piece is representing a ruin, it must always have at least 1 of the 4 walls “ruined”.

However, that is a harder thing to roll out across the board, especially with all the different pieces of terrain and terrain companies out there, than say, “in the assault phase, if a unit can FLY it may move over models in the unit it is charging.”

If match play rules were to say “if a building has all 4 walls intact and is outside of either players deployment zone it is considered to have been barricaded up by the owners and is classed as impassable terrain for the purpose of movement” then we could see some potential changes. I’d leave access open for buildings in each deployment zone as it represents the armies having the “time” during deployment to smash and blast their way inside.

I WOULD however also make another change to any building with a "roof" with the following -
"If a unit is inside of a building with a roof, weapons that do not require line of sight to be fired can only be fired if the bearer has line of sight to their target."

All this "it has a roof but i can still shoot 3 mortars out through the solid roof" is BS and needs changing.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
But the charging unit could hypothetically run around the wall/building to finish the charge or am I misunderstanding the situation?

They put 1-2 units inside and wall off the entire inside of the building so it cannot be entered. If they have a mortars or two inside they can continue to fire it as it doesn't need LoS, and they also then cannot be killed themselves in the process.

If the table doesn't have an open side to the building (they always should, imo) then you basically can't do anything since your base doesn't let you fit.

However you can't not make a wall of models exactly block out a 25mm based model due to the nature of round bases, either they have to be closer to the wall to prevent a model making it into the space and hence can be attacked from outside or they are further back and a model should be able to fit between two other models and the wall.
Much like how you can get 4 ranks of 25mm bases to fight.

Also fly used to get you past this untill GW's no flying outside the movement phase knee jerk nerf.

Ice_can wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
But the charging unit could hypothetically run around the wall/building to finish the charge or am I misunderstanding the situation?

They put 1-2 units inside and wall off the entire inside of the building so it cannot be entered. If they have a mortars or two inside they can continue to fire it as it doesn't need LoS, and they also then cannot be killed themselves in the process.

If the table doesn't have an open side to the building (they always should, imo) then you basically can't do anything since your base doesn't let you fit.

However you can't not make a wall of models exactly block out a 25mm based model due to the nature of round bases, either they have to be closer to the wall to prevent a model making it into the space and hence can be attacked from outside or they are further back and a model should be able to fit between two other models and the wall.
Much like how you can get 4 ranks of 25mm bases to fight.

Also fly used to get you past this untill GW's no flying outside the movement phase knee jerk nerf.

Sure, that's fair enough.

Kdash wrote:
By putting a squad inside of a ruin/building, but keeping them 1.1” away from the wall the opponent can’t complete the charge because they can’t finish their move inside a wall and thus can’t place their model.

Well we've been playing that 'wrong' locally then, as we just declare wobbly model syndrome and carry on.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Correct, they absolutely should not have terrain that allows this. Unfortunately, FLG actively creates and sells Terrain that allows this, so that's unlikely for their major events. I can guarantee you'll be seeing people doing it at the LVO if no changes are made to your ability to do this.

Are you serious? That's super dishonest of them.

Wasn't the rule brought in to existance, along side the terrain, because eldar were blowing everything up turn one with how GW terrain rules worked?

Now I get that an eldar player, may not like the fact that this is a hard counter to his army, but until eldar players make up the majority of all players, they are going to have to live with the fact that rules aren't put in to tournaments to help the minority to have fun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Correct, they absolutely should not have terrain that allows this. Unfortunately, FLG actively creates and sells Terrain that allows this, so that's unlikely for their major events. I can guarantee you'll be seeing people doing it at the LVO if no changes are made to your ability to do this.

Are you serious? That's super dishonest of them.

I don't think that's fair. They've been producing the terrain (both in damaged and non-damaged versions) for far longer than you've been able to do things, and certainly before fly was nerfed to not allow dynamic charges.

It's just an unfortunate side effect.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Correct, they absolutely should not have terrain that allows this. Unfortunately, FLG actively creates and sells Terrain that allows this, so that's unlikely for their major events. I can guarantee you'll be seeing people doing it at the LVO if no changes are made to your ability to do this.

Are you serious? That's super dishonest of them.

I don't think that's fair. They've been producing the terrain (both in damaged and non-damaged versions) for far longer than you've been able to do things, and certainly before fly was nerfed to not allow dynamic charges.

It's just an unfortunate side effect.

Yes, it's a bit ridiculous to allow non-LOS weapons to be fired inside a box at full BS. At the very least they need -hit modifiers.

I'd propose something similar to the old forest rules of 4th edition, where you can see into the forest, but not through he forest to the other side.

A slight modification of that would still allow LOS to be drawn through non-solid walls into the building (therefore reasonable positioning would allow troops inside to be shot at), but it would still allow for units to be out of LOS behind the building.

This ought to stop the "no-charge allowable" scenario since you could inflict casualties to the unit inside and get a foothold for assault, but still allow for units to hide from shooting effectively during the game by being behind the structure.

Kind of putting them in a lose/lose scenario there, no?

On one hand they make it so firing out of an area without LoS is at a penalty, but on the other they're now actually house ruling things even further, which also makes people mad.

A bit of nuance is likely easier, by just expanding the ruins definition which allows infantry to move through walls to count as being able to "wobbly model" through them for the purpose of charges, which just completely negates this behavior.

I dunno. I'm jsut a humble dice roller.

No-los weapons should not be allowed to fire from within an enclosed building, firing a mortar into the ceiling is not going to be healthy

Maybe a mole mortar though...

The person who posted the third place list got it wrong. It is not a Ynnari list, it was a Brigade of DE with 1 farseer as an auxiliary.

And Brandon Grandt is a great player, who has been winning events with his Catachan guard all year. GTs - and now a major. The only thing he's changed is he's dropped a tallarn shadowsword for a castellan, as a result of the FAQ changing DS.

Guard being underpowered is fake news. And you don't see essentially mono-knights (knights + min guard) because everyone made it their mission to have an answer to knights.

 Vaktathi wrote:
No-los weapons should not be allowed to fire from within an enclosed building, firing a mortar into the ceiling is not going to be healthy

Maybe a mole mortar though...

ENTER THE MOLE-TAR!

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


I feel like a lot of these matches are decided by the terrain and not who's driving the army or what the army contains.

This is not an inaccurate reflection of many of the most pivotal battles in human history

To be fair, the basic rules for terrain in 8E are...abysmally thin to begin with and need more fleshing out. The terrain rules were gimmicky in this instance, but should have been no surprise to anyone at this level of competition. Certainly no less gimmicky than shennanigans with characters.

Yeah but in real life hiding in a building doesn't make you immune to damage from demolishes cannons...or even grenades - it actually would increase the damage you take. In real life you can shoot through windows too. I'm more speaking about the artificial ITC rule and not the presence of terrain features which should play a roll - just not in stupid ways like this. This is a mockery of the game. Almost as bad as 50 foot tall titans not being able to assault the roof of a building they could probably step over or walk through - or flying units not being able to assault the second floor of a building.

IMO - with the level of idiotic rules in regards to the above - placing terrain on a board that invites these situations is foolhardy and takes away any semblance of competition.

 Galas wrote:

TOP 3 Eldar Soup

CW batallion

Spoiler:

With a Ynnari sperhead

Spoiler:

and DE batallion

Spoiler:

This is the wrong list. This list didn't finish 3rd, 3rd was almost pure DE actually.

Ynnari fold like a house of cards if there's sufficient terrain.

But i still think Ynnari soulbursting needs a nerf or a squat.

In general eldar and DE without ynnari aren't as good as people think.