Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's only fair to include them into the cost of it all. If you want your full rerolls, include them in the cost for your 5 Aggressors.

Impossible to do - 6" aura can literally affect your who army as space marines and it should. I get what you are saying but -
by comparison - without the auras you only kill 14 guardsmen. Instead of 30. There is no reason you should not have your army buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Xenomancer, if your going to complain about something atleast make sure you understand the situation first.

Trying to understand it - I dont play ITC. I don't need to fully understand a situation to complain about it ether.

All I need to know is the result. The result is unacceptable no matter what the cause. A unit you can not shoot or charge is unacceptable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's only fair to include them into the cost of it all. If you want your full rerolls, include them in the cost for your 5 Aggressors.

Impossible to do - 6" aura can literally affect your who army as space marines and it should. I get what you are saying but -
by comparison - without the auras you only kill 14 guardsmen. Instead of 30. There is no reason you should not have your army buffed.

Which means, in your scenario, 5 Aggressors for 185 points kills 56 points of Infantry, and the minimum 585 with Roboute kills 120 points.

Roboute and the HQ units don't just exist. You pay for them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's only fair to include them into the cost of it all. If you want your full rerolls, include them in the cost for your 5 Aggressors.

Impossible to do - 6" aura can literally affect your who army as space marines and it should. I get what you are saying but -
by comparison - without the auras you only kill 14 guardsmen. Instead of 30. There is no reason you should not have your army buffed.

Which means, in your scenario, 5 Aggressors for 185 points kills 56 points of Infantry, and the minimum 585 with Roboute kills 120 points.

Roboute and the HQ units don't just exist. You pay for them.

But they buff your whole army. Not to mention Gman and clagar ar CC beast. We have no metric to just cost the aura buff.

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd floor is where at.

I going to get merked at LVO lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

I'm gonna get merked at LVO.

If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

Then add bases to the ruins, which is something that is not disallowed by the rules, no need to alter them. Now you can be in ruins and claim your cover, even if you play against people that don't allow you to put the tip of your tracks over a 1/8 inch fragment of wall and claim it anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Space Marines have horde sweeper weapons. Aggressors delete hordes with 0 issue.

Only under extreme circumstances where the opposing player brings in their horde within aggressor's special ability range, which in that case, that player deserves to have his units deleted.

Footslogging aggressor is only as good as a termie.

You are getting 9.5 bolters for 40 points for 18" range. Then you have power fists. 5 man squad puts out 50 bolters. When buffed by gman that will usually turn into 20ish wounds if you are wounding on 5's or 40ish wounds wounding on 3's. That will wipe lot of powerful units.

So how much is that 5 man squad and how many points of Gaunts and Infantry does it kill?

5 Man is 185. They kill roughly 30 guardsmen if buffed by gman. Slightly less with CM Lt. That really is pretty good. The issue though...they only have 6 gaking wounds for that price. Again - the issue with space marines is not dealing damage. The issue is they can't take it. I feel like Dark angels are probably better than ultramarines for this reason and they do a little better WR wise.

Yeah how about you calculate that without the constant rerolls?

What's the point, it's trivially easy to get rerolls for marines.

It's only fair to include them into the cost of it all. If you want your full rerolls, include them in the cost for your 5 Aggressors.

Impossible to do - 6" aura can literally affect your who army as space marines and it should. I get what you are saying but -
by comparison - without the auras you only kill 14 guardsmen. Instead of 30. There is no reason you should not have your army buffed.

Which means, in your scenario, 5 Aggressors for 185 points kills 56 points of Infantry, and the minimum 585 with Roboute kills 120 points.

Roboute and the HQ units don't just exist. You pay for them.

But they buff your whole army. Not to mention Gman and clagar ar CC beast. We have no metric to just cost the aura buff.

Well those points are there. You can pay 74 points for a Captain and pay the CP to upgrade to a Chapter Master and then pay the 60ish points for the Lt.

Also at range they'd both just kill a few more haha

It is harder to compute the value of the SM aura compared to a Guard order, since the Captain can be buffing anywhere from just the unit in question to the unit in question and 500+ points of additional tanks and gun units.

In addition, the Captain is a powerful unit in his own right, with powerful close-quarters capability and potentially moderately strong ranged ability and high speed and general threat.

In addition, the captain's personal value can vary quite drastically. A captain with his master-crafted boltgun and chainsword is considerably weaker than a captain with a jump pack and thunder hammer. The former isn't particularly strong without is aura, but the latter can stand on his own as a unit without having to support anybody.

By comparison, an IG Company Commander buffs a fixed number of units [2], and has no useful additional capability, making it fairly easy to quantify the value of an Order at 15 points.


Obviously, it's unfair to count a unit as fully buffed without accounting for the cost of buffing it. That said, I think it's fairly safe to say that the aura isn't particularly costly, and probably is of lower value than the Order.

Spoletta wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

Then add bases to the ruins, which is something that is not disallowed by the rules, no need to alter them. Now you can be in ruins and claim your cover, even if you play against people that don't allow you to put the tip of your tracks over a 1/8 inch fragment of wall and claim it anyway.

I think you mean "add ruins to your bases," correct?

Except TLOS would make you more visible if you were to model ruins onto your base. Nothing stopping you, but nothing gained either.

The issue I think was because TLOS is in effect and the intervening terrain with arched windows had enough holes to be "seen" thru, and unlike prior editions where there existed cover saves as a separate entity of saves granted to those who were targeted through a intervening terrain, in 8th ed, you couldn't unless you were at least tiptoed into the area terrain.

The commander can hold an objective and be invcinble b/c of character status. That's how I use mine. It's died once in like 10 games.

Whatever the ACTUAL value is, we have the point values for the HQ units anyway. Those posters can't just not include it in the Aggressor math.

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd floor is where at.

I going to get merked at LVO lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

I'm gonna get merked at LVO.

If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

Thats tournaments fault for have walls and not large blocked off terrain pieces, have a base, if on base you are in terrain, this is how my local does it, 5-7 larger pieces with random walls around the square/triangle/rectangles, etc.. we there is 0 problems getting into cover for most of your army.

Martel732 wrote:
The commander can hold an objective and be invcinble b/c of character status. That's how I use mine. It's died once in like 10 games.

I don't frequently have situations where one of my CC's is sitting on a point that isn't also being held by something else, like a squad of Guardsmen or a Leman Russ or something.

But yes, their body does have some value, but it's not a whole lot of value. We can compute that more precisely based off the PC's cost. It's trivial to solve, and the result is 10 points per order.

I do all the time. I sacrifice the guardsmen early and often. Frequently, I move move move them out to block DS knowing they will all vaporize.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Thats tournaments fault for have walls and not large blocked off terrain pieces, have a base, if on base you are in terrain, this is how my local does it, 5-7 larger pieces with random walls around the square/triangle/rectangles, etc.. we there is 0 problems getting into cover for most of your army.

The rule was added because a lot of stores use GW's City ruin terrain which are full of holes.
The rule itself is no problem if used with such ruins in mind because they are basically just a facade of a building.

The problem comes from allowing fully enclosed buildings to be entered.

It kind of sounds like GW needs to revisit terrain in general, even if this specific case was due to a house rule.

I for one am partial to from, I think 4th Edition, where you could see INTO terrain, but not THROUGH it. In terms of 8th, it would be a fairly simple fix - a unit IN terrain gets the cover bonus, a unit BEHIND terrain is untargetable (but the unit also cannot target foes past the terrain themselves). Couple this with a nerf to no LOS weapons (either increase points costs, or make firing them with no LOS a -1 to hit), and the terrain rules get much better.

 skchsan wrote:
The game should reflect what it's supposed to be (a tabletop RTS like starcraft), not what it isn't (FPS like Call of Duty).

Enabling a mechanism that enables units to hide inside indestructible buildings don't belong in 40k.

Funny you mention this when one of the main mechanics in Starcraft series is Terran camping inside bunkers filled with infantry you can't touch

Bunkers aren't indestructible.

Martel732 wrote:
Bunkers aren't indestructible.

That could be funny.

"I'm in the building, you can't shoot or assault me ROFLL!!!!"

"My assault centurian steps up with his siege drills. Rule: Siege drills can attack buildings in melee, building is destroyed and any occupants killed."

Having now watched this I'm a little confused as to how people got the impression that noone could be charged, they could actually be charged.
It looks like it was more just the straight up brokenness of all the CC buffs made doing so when you could only kill 1 unit and then get jumped by 30+ catachans plus straken plus Priest plus bulgryn making it not worthwhile not the terrain making it not possible physically.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd propose something similar to the old forest rules of 4th edition, where you can see into the forest, but not through he forest to the other side.

I haven't read the entire ten pages of thread but this is the house rule we've been using since before I'd even heard of ITC. LoS drawn into, out of, but not through ruined buildings/forests/etc.

Probably because none of us had played since 4th and this made a hundred times more sense than whatever GW has now, or however ITC is trying to fix it. It lets cover be cover.

It makes no sense ruins do nothing if they're completely between you and your enemy. It makes equally no sense infantry can't take up positions in ruins and fire out unless they ignore LoS.

Squiiddish wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd propose something similar to the old forest rules of 4th edition, where you can see into the forest, but not through he forest to the other side.

I haven't read the entire ten pages of thread but this is the house rule we've been using since before I'd even heard of ITC. LoS drawn into, out of, but not through ruined buildings/forests/etc.

Probably because none of us had played since 4th and this made a hundred times more sense than whatever GW has now, or however ITC is trying to fix it. It lets cover be cover.

It makes no sense ruins do nothing if they're completely between you and your enemy. It makes equally no sense infantry can't take up positions in ruins and fire out unless they ignore LoS.

Unfortunately, the terrain rule in 8th ed does nothing to stop you from drawing TLOS through a ruin, hence the ITC houserule.

 skchsan wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

Then add bases to the ruins, which is something that is not disallowed by the rules, no need to alter them. Now you can be in ruins and claim your cover, even if you play against people that don't allow you to put the tip of your tracks over a 1/8 inch fragment of wall and claim it anyway.

I think you mean "add ruins to your bases," correct?

Except TLOS would make you more visible if you were to model ruins onto your base. Nothing stopping you, but nothing gained either.

The issue I think was because TLOS is in effect and the intervening terrain with arched windows had enough holes to be "seen" thru, and unlike prior editions where there existed cover saves as a separate entity of saves granted to those who were targeted through a intervening terrain, in 8th ed, you couldn't unless you were at least tiptoed into the area terrain.

No i meant exactly what i said, add bases to your ruins. If you play with the kind of people that say that if you are inside the perimeter of a ruin then you are not INSIDE the ruin, then just add a base to it and resolve the problem. If you are at least partially on the base of the ruin then you can claim cover (provided that something is also obscuring you). No need to change the game's rules.

How that deals with los issue? Which seems to be issue there. Being behind but not in useless

A.T. wrote:

Kdash wrote:
By putting a squad inside of a ruin/building, but keeping them 1.1” away from the wall the opponent can’t complete the charge because they can’t finish their move inside a wall and thus can’t place their model.

Well we've been playing that 'wrong' locally then, as we just declare wobbly model syndrome and carry on.

Unfortunately wobbly model is for models that can be placed, but, due to terrain and the model in question, placing it where it ends its move would be “dangerous” to the model and other models. Thus, allowing you to safely place the model elsewhere for the purpose of the phase/turn.
You can’t end a move halfway through a wall as the model can’t be placed at all, so wobbly model wouldn’t come into play. Now, if the wall had an open section in it big enough for a base then you can still charge through the gap as you can be placed, but, with the buildings in question no such opportunities exist.

As for the comments about ITC events use “ITC” terrain, it might be the case that they all use/try to use FLG made terrain in the US, but, over here in the UK I don’t think it is used at all (I’ve never been to an event using it anyway). Everyone tries to use the same standard of x amount of big LoS blocking terrain and x amount of ruins in each deployment zone etc, but the physical terrain varies massively. The last event I went to was using terrain from the ETC event in Croatia. It was essentially cardboard cut-out terrain. The event I’m going to this weekend, GW is attending, so, I’m guessing that most of the terrain will be GW style terrain.

Having GW/other company terrain is perfectly fine, as long as you’re willing to use the 1st floor LoS blocking rule and the terrain allows some kind of counter play and is “realistic”. (i.e a rock is… a rock… and a ruin is… well… a ruined building etc etc.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the whole LoS issue, I still maintain that my idea from months ago is the correct way to go (especially if the rumoured -1 to hit traits are taking a hit).

If the firing unit cannot draw Line Of Sight to its target and is not within 6” of a friendly unit that can draw Line Of Sight to the target, the firing unit suffers a -1 to hit penalty

In my mind, blindly firing without being able to see should not be as accurate as when you can see the target. It was one of the few things I liked about templates before.

The only issue is, is that without a current “6’s always hit” rule in place this seriously hurts Guard and T’au when they are playing against units that can stack multiple -1s to hit. If 6’s always hits was brought in, then I would push for this to follow as well.

 grouchoben wrote:
Ynnari aside, I'm really impressed with the list diversity. Healthy.

Ynnari needs a nerf. But I guess this will not happen.
I'm not playing Ynnari in friendly games.

Does anybode have win % of the factions or something similar?

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Does anybode have win % of the factions or something similar?

The win ratio of Ynnari seems to be outstanding.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.

He went 6-0.

Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Does anybode have win % of the factions or something similar?

This is hard to do because everyone theze days are running soups of various kinds.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.

He went 6-0.

Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15

He scored 30+ 4 times and got 27+ every time. Pretty impressive. Melee doesn't necessarily suck, but power armor melee absolutely sucks.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
155 is still way too cheap for the cheese barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd floor is where at.

I going to get merked at LVO lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't need LOS to shoot out of magic bunkers right?

1st levels of ruins block LOS for both of those shooting into and out of. It actually encourages 2nd floor ruin camping.

I'm gonna get merked at LVO.

If I'm not mistaken, the houserule was devised due to the fact that people were drawing TLOS through ruins/other porous terrain as under 8th ed rules, you couldn't claim the benefit of cover unless you were IN it. Unfortunate side effect.

Thats tournaments fault for have walls and not large blocked off terrain pieces, have a base, if on base you are in terrain, this is how my local does it, 5-7 larger pieces with random walls around the square/triangle/rectangles, etc.. we there is 0 problems getting into cover for most of your army.

Or - you just imagine that the inside has a base even if it doesn't - and if you are touching a wall you are on the base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.

They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?

Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.

He went 6-0.

Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15

He scored 30+ 4 times and got 27+ every time. Pretty impressive. Melee doesn't necessarily suck, but power armor melee absolutely sucks.

Melle auto wins if there is too much terrain. You can walk through walls but not shoot through them. It's an obviously OP advantage and people should really try to understand this. THIS GAME IS NOT DESIGNED FOR CITYFIGHT. If you want that - play infiinity - or kill team. Those are scrimmage game. 40k is more like an RTS with large armies.