Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Melle auto wins if there is too much terrain. You can walk through walls but not shoot through them. It's an obviously OP advantage and people should really try to understand this. THIS GAME IS NOT DESIGNED FOR CITYFIGHT. If you want that - play infiinity - or kill team. Those are scrimmage game. 40k is more like an RTS with large armies.
ITC terrain is pretty standard. If that were the true dynamic you'd likely see those lists more.
Xenomancers wrote: Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.
They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?
Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.
He went 6-0.
Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15
How that Wraithguard list got to the top 10 is a real miracle. Was it on Twitch?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 15:59:29
Melle auto wins if there is too much terrain. You can walk through walls but not shoot through them. It's an obviously OP advantage and people should really try to understand this. THIS GAME IS NOT DESIGNED FOR CITYFIGHT. If you want that - play infiinity - or kill team. Those are scrimmage game. 40k is more like an RTS with large armies.
ITC terrain is pretty standard. If that were the true dynamic you'd likely see those lists more.
Is it standard though? Seems highly variable from event to event.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.
They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?
Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.
He went 6-0.
Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
ITC terrain as a whole is standardized but the variety of tables is extreme. You can't assume you'll be in city fight, but you also can't assume you won't be at some point.
They need to scrap or update mission 6, it favors Guard, Orks, Tau, and all the armies that have dirt cheap HQs, that can largely be camped in one spot and never move.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 16:25:32
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
So a whole battalion.
pretty sure that army went 0-5 or maybe 1-4.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Xenomancers wrote: Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.
They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?
Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.
He went 6-0.
Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15
He scored 30+ 4 times and got 27+ every time. Pretty impressive. Melee doesn't necessarily suck, but power armor melee absolutely sucks.
Khorne Berzerkers definitely don't suck. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard definitely don't suck.
A more accurate statement would be that Vanilla Space Marines do not have easy access to powerful close quarters combat troops, which does seem generally true.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Loyalist power armor melee isn't about clearing hordes. It's about killing big things and doing a great job of it.
How many factions can kill a fething imperial knight with a 130 point model?
Loyalist melee is about killing big elite things, and they do it fabulously. If you're really interested in clearing hordes, you need to bring the anti-horde tools available to you. As the meta has shifted more towards the elite, marines are actually getting better. And melee is not a joke, it's just not about clearing hordes.
Should marines be able to slaughter elites, and also, slaughter hordes? Especially when you have the best dakka in the game for clearing hordes other than Imperial Guard (the faction that has everything).
Seriously, the shifting meta is favoring marines. Chapter approved will reduce their costs (probably) and then they'll be great in the meta. They're already good. Ultimately marines also suffer from the problem that they're eclipsed by Guard. But everyone is really eclipsed by Guard in some way, it's just 8th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 16:43:45
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
What sucks about melee is that for Chaos it seems that Berzerkers are the only decent choice. They've outclassed everything else. Which kinda makes sense. But possessed should be a contender, same with chosen.
Xenomancers wrote: Gonna be pretty honest here. If you can win majors with the second and third place lists. You can win with anything.
They aren't very good lists. My casual tyranids list is better than than nids list. Like - I'm not trying to be a wise ass here...but how do you win a game where the only shooting you have is 6 hive guard?
Because melee isn't always as bad as the forum makes it out to be, but let's break down what they fought.
He went 6-0.
Round 1 : Primaris Intercessor / Hellblaster spam - 31 to 14
Round 2 : Abaddon / Ahriman Fearless Cultists, Triple Prince, 30 Tzaangors - 27 to 25
Round 3 : Tigirius Devs with IG + Wyverns - 33 to 23 (kind of a meh gunline)
Round 4 : 2 Razorwing, Voidraven, Alaitoc Exarch,Hemlock 2 Nightwing, 3 Wave Serpents - 29 to 17
Round 5 : 30 Wraithguard, 10 Wraithblades, casters, and DE patrol - 31 to 21
Round 6 : Alaitoc banshees, spears, Harlie skyweavers, 3 Razorwings - 30 to 15
He scored 30+ 4 times and got 27+ every time. Pretty impressive. Melee doesn't necessarily suck, but power armor melee absolutely sucks.
Khorne Berzerkers definitely don't suck. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard definitely don't suck.
A more accurate statement would be that Vanilla Space Marines do not have easy access to powerful close quarters combat troops, which does seem generally true.
All those units suck now. The berserkers were gutted by the FAQ, and DC and SG were gutted by high points cost and the May FAQ.
The latest FAQ also killed the smash capt. Good riddance. Terrible meta unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 16:50:46
chimeara wrote: What sucks about melee is that for Chaos it seems that Berzerkers are the only decent choice. They've outclassed everything else. Which kinda makes sense. But possessed should be a contender, same with chosen.
Well you said Chaos, so that's not accurate, because Bloodletter bombs are a real thing and they do work.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
chimeara wrote: What sucks about melee is that for Chaos it seems that Berzerkers are the only decent choice. They've outclassed everything else. Which kinda makes sense. But possessed should be a contender, same with chosen.
Well you said Chaos, so that's not accurate, because Bloodletter bombs are a real thing and they do work.
Fair Point, I should have mentioned Chaos Marines specifically.
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 17:15:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 17:23:38
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
It was his first round fight - all the lists after that were more competitive.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 17:36:02
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Tyel wrote: DC/SG would be fine if they had anyway to avoid being very efficiently gunned to death after they hit whatever they are going after.
Berserkers just lack a good delivery system now.
...Rhinos, Warptime, and reroll charges.
I get that you can put more models on the table if you had AL (the way it used to be) and that is stronger, but Rhinos are extremely useful on the front line with the Berzerkers.
You can drag four or five of them onto the table and you'll have a 2+ armor if you don't go first and then smoke for no man's land. It would take a Castellan 3 or 4 turns to kill all of them.
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
So a whole battalion.
That list would've done SO much better just as Raven Guard or even Dark Angels. I get wanting to be aggressive and using the melee stats of Primaris to your advantage, but it really doesn't seem worth having to be Black Templars.
Kudos to him even getting 2-3 though. Who did he win against?
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Dude, Deathwatch are still overcosted and you know it. You pay a LOT for those offensive stats. The minimum cost for ONE guy is 17 points because GW thinks a Vet is worth 16 points. In reality it's MAYBE 15 like Wolf Guard. Of course GW thinks we should pay a point for the privelage to Combat Squad!
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
It was his first round fight - all the lists after that were more competitive.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
4 points for a Storm Bolter is hardly undercosted seeing as the model is 20 points after the fact.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 17:44:18
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
The WG list took 7th. His only loss was to the nids.
So whatever he's doing works well against stacking minus to hit - only one unit of WG had D-Scythes. Rolling up against that many Eldar flyers for a whole tournament would give me nightmares.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
The WG list took 7th. His only loss was to the nids.
So whatever he's doing works well against stacking minus to hit - only one unit of WG had D-Scythes. Rolling up against that many Eldar flyers for a whole tournament would give me nightmares.
Holy flyers batman.
Well - I guess I can't blame him for hiding in buildings being indestructible then. If he leaves cover hes getting focused down by insane shooting.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Hemlocks are undercosted but at the end of the day if someone is running multiple of them just kill everything on the table.
Eldar are not durable, despite what the dakka peanut gallery suggests.
And i am speaking as someone who has crushed multi-flyer Eldar with Nids and also someone who plays Eldar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:20:34
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
So a whole battalion.
That list would've done SO much better just as Raven Guard or even Dark Angels. I get wanting to be aggressive and using the melee stats of Primaris to your advantage, but it really doesn't seem worth having to be Black Templars.
Kudos to him even getting 2-3 though. Who did he win against?
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Dude, Deathwatch are still overcosted and you know it. You pay a LOT for those offensive stats. The minimum cost for ONE guy is 17 points because GW thinks a Vet is worth 16 points. In reality it's MAYBE 15 like Wolf Guard. Of course GW thinks we should pay a point for the privelage to Combat Squad!
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
It was his first round fight - all the lists after that were more competitive.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
4 points for a Storm Bolter is hardly undercosted seeing as the model is 20 points after the fact.
You pay 2 points for the special ammo...for 2+ to wound non vehical, or up to +2 AP. Plus really - it's the intercessors that are OP. For 20 points they do double the damage as normal intercessors AND they can take hellblasters and plasma inceptors in their squads and stack special rules on your units (one of which is the ultramarines chapter tactic...+1 lol).... I almost quit when I read the rules for DW.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Daedalus81 wrote: FLG is talking SoCal right now and are addressing the building thing.
Not sure how much discussion should be required on the topic. Change the rule to where buildings block LOS through them but not within them. Or in other words - you can't shoot through buildings BUT you can shoot into them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
I'm saying the are OP in comparison to space marine intercessors. +2 points for those stats? Gotta be kidding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 18:54:15
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
