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I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
So a whole battalion.
That list would've done SO much better just as Raven Guard or even Dark Angels. I get wanting to be aggressive and using the melee stats of Primaris to your advantage, but it really doesn't seem worth having to be Black Templars.
Kudos to him even getting 2-3 though. Who did he win against?
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Dude, Deathwatch are still overcosted and you know it. You pay a LOT for those offensive stats. The minimum cost for ONE guy is 17 points because GW thinks a Vet is worth 16 points. In reality it's MAYBE 15 like Wolf Guard. Of course GW thinks we should pay a point for the privelage to Combat Squad!
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
It was his first round fight - all the lists after that were more competitive.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
4 points for a Storm Bolter is hardly undercosted seeing as the model is 20 points after the fact.
You pay 2 points for the special ammo...for 2+ to wound non vehical, or up to +2 AP. Plus really - it's the intercessors that are OP. For 20 points they do double the damage as normal intercessors AND they can take hellblasters and plasma inceptors in their squads and stack special rules on your units (one of which is the ultramarines chapter tactic...+1 lol).... I almost quit when I read the rules for DW.
Regular Intercessors weren't even close to OP at 20 points. The only difference is that the Deathwatch ones can actually hurt something on occasion.
If you really think they're OP, you need to get your priorities straightened out. They're only OP if you thought Intercessors were fine at 20. Hint: they clearly weren't.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Marmatag wrote: Hemlocks are undercosted but at the end of the day if someone is running multiple of them just kill everything on the table.
Eldar are not durable, despite what the dakka peanut gallery suggests.
And i am speaking as someone who has crushed multi-flyer Eldar with Nids and also someone who plays Eldar.
It's a matchup thing. There are lists that Eldar are great at surviving against and lists that can crunch Eldar. On the whole, Eldar are a strong faction.
I'm not discrediting the Tyranid list at all (and actually think Tyranids are strong this edition), but what exactly is it that you mean by Primaris Intercessor/Hellblaster spam? That can mean anything after all.
More specifically-
Helbrecht
2 x Primaris LT
5 x 5 Intercessor, AGL 5 Scouts
Primaris Anicent
Primaris Apoth
5 Reavers
3 x 3 Inceptors
3 x 5 Helblaster
So a whole battalion.
That list would've done SO much better just as Raven Guard or even Dark Angels. I get wanting to be aggressive and using the melee stats of Primaris to your advantage, but it really doesn't seem worth having to be Black Templars.
Kudos to him even getting 2-3 though. Who did he win against?
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Dude, Deathwatch are still overcosted and you know it. You pay a LOT for those offensive stats. The minimum cost for ONE guy is 17 points because GW thinks a Vet is worth 16 points. In reality it's MAYBE 15 like Wolf Guard. Of course GW thinks we should pay a point for the privelage to Combat Squad!
And by the way, the second marines "get good," deathwatch also "gets good," which means Tyranids cease to exist. Poisoned 2+ on all your guns is flat broken, no one is talking about it because it hasn't impacted the meta in a huge way... yet.
I'm not sure it will - it's really strong but is it really better than Gman? IDK. From a balance perspective though...you can't have the DW special ammo being that good - even if space marines drop in price DW should not.
It is absolutely better, because Deathwatch has effortless access to rerolling hits and 1s to wound. And the guns poisoning on a 2+ have AP. Not to mention they can mix and match units in kill teams and also deep strike them.
Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
It was his first round fight - all the lists after that were more competitive.
Yeah I saw he faced some good lists. This list and mass WG are terrible though. Also Tiggy and Devs is terrible. He also faced a list with 6 eldar flyers? He probably tabled that.
4 points for a Storm Bolter is hardly undercosted seeing as the model is 20 points after the fact.
You pay 2 points for the special ammo...for 2+ to wound non vehical, or up to +2 AP. Plus really - it's the intercessors that are OP. For 20 points they do double the damage as normal intercessors AND they can take hellblasters and plasma inceptors in their squads and stack special rules on your units (one of which is the ultramarines chapter tactic...+1 lol).... I almost quit when I read the rules for DW.
Regular Intercessors weren't even close to OP at 20 points. The only difference is that the Deathwatch ones can actually hurt something on occasion.
If you really think they're OP, you need to get your priorities straightened out. They're only OP if you thought Intercessors were fine at 20. Hint: they clearly weren't.
Nah they are overcosted at 18 too. I'm saying they are OP compared to regular space marine intercessors. Which it is quite clear that they are. +2 to wounds things or in the or in the event that isn't your best choice...go to and additional ap -2 instead....That is not a 2 point upgrade.
Daedalus81 wrote: FLG is talking SoCal right now and are addressing the building thing.
What did they say?
Fairly nuanced, but came down to terrain being something you need to factor and to build your list accordingly instead of taking all flyers, etc.
In regards to 32mm charging - they said infantry ignore walls so you wobbly model the chargers.
Yeah - bring ignore LOS spam. That's my plan.
Do infantry ignore walls? or do they just move through them like they are not there? There is a difference between wobbly model syndrome and a wall cutting you in half...They are saying that infantry can charge and attack even if they can't be placed?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 19:27:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In general the way things are played is if the model cannot be placed it cannot complete its charge. This is a rule. Now, if ITC wants to house rule that it's fine, but that's not RAW. And I don't think people going to SoCal would have assumed that house rule, and it certainly wasn't made clear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 19:31:31
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I thought the Spring FAQ made the change/clarification where wobbly model cannot be used to put a model into combat that can't actually be placed there.
Arachnofiend wrote: I thought the Spring FAQ made the change/clarification where wobbly model cannot be used to put a model into combat that can't actually be placed there.
That's what I thought too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Arachnofiend wrote: I thought the Spring FAQ made the change/clarification where wobbly model cannot be used to put a model into combat that can't actually be placed there.
It does yes.
And 'all flier' armies is not the problem with buildings.
The problem is putting blobs into places where they cannot ever be shot at without ignore LoS weapons, which many factions cannot competitively bring if at all.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
They actually *are* quite good. Better if you have a table with lots of ruins.
Wounding Grotesques on 2s? Flyrants on 2s? Primarch's on 2s? Dropping all to invuln save? You can't make the case this isn't good. The rest of the codex may have problems but that isn't what we're discussing here. You can also mix and match squads so they can fall back and shoot, or put a stormshield in a unit... so flexible. And can deep strike.
These guys are still cheaper than a PAGK.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 20:48:50
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
They actually *are* quite good. Better if you have a table with lots of ruins.
Wounding Grotesques on 2s? Flyrants on 2s? Primarch's on 2s? Dropping all to invuln save? You can't make the case this isn't good. The rest of the codex may have problems but that isn't what we're discussing here. You can also mix and match squads so they can fall back and shoot, or put a stormshield in a unit... so flexible. And can deep strike.
These guys are still cheaper than a PAGK.
Oh don't get me wrong they are some of the best the marines can offer. I run them regularly and enjoy them. You still don't see them performing super hot in tournies either albeit that is for a variety of reasons not directly related to themselves, but rather the meta being what it is. If there was not a surplus of multiple damage weapons out there then they would be in a much better place. Also note I am talking about Primaris intercessors specifically and not the veteran squads.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
Because the problem is the same. They die to fast.
Its the GK problem. You can make em more killy but now your a more expensive marine that dies like a marine.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
Because the problem is the same. They die to fast.
Its the GK problem. You can make em more killy but now your a more expensive marine that dies like a marine.
I absolutely agree and that is my problem with them specifically. Primaris ones die too fast because of no invulns and a surplus of multiple damage weapons.
Daedalus81 wrote: FLG is talking SoCal right now and are addressing the building thing.
What did they say?
Fairly nuanced, but came down to terrain being something you need to factor and to build your list accordingly instead of taking all flyers, etc.
In regards to 32mm charging - they said infantry ignore walls so you wobbly model the chargers.
Pretty hilarious, as you can't really ever plan for terrain. Sometimes you'll get adepticon levels of gakky terrain, sometimes you get warhammer world amazing setups.
Sometimes you end up with unpainted blocks of foam.
Better make sure you activate your almonds and have a big brain the day before so you can anticipate those changes.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
Oh, look, it's Xenomancer has no idea what he is talking about episode.
First, DW models are overcosted across the board. All of them.
Second, even ignoring the above, these bolt pistols that are normally free for SM? They cost points in DW. Since you can't take them off Primaris, they are now overcosted from two different sources, for something you won't use in 95% of games. Gee, that sure sounds great!
Third, these ""OP"" guns? Let's take a look at them. Auto bolt rifle is really overcosted for what it does and just bad. Stalker is both overcosted and useless - because it has only 1 shot and can't even claim full bonus from special ammo - it's literally so bad that even if it was free no one would take it. Bolt rifle is OK but it makes DW Primaris mono-loadout (not even GL, seriously), inflexible unit that has a real bite only to 15 inch and is quite slow. That is not OP by any means and thanks to the two above issues is actually overcosted as package too. And that is the only Primaris unit that gets the special ammo, the Agressors or Inceptors who could actually do something with it don't get it, but they got points hike for no reason whatsoever (I am ignoring Reivers here because it's either trip to Overcostbadville with rifles or plinking away tiny number of pistol shots no one sane would be afraid of).
Now, the big boogeyman itself, the storm bolter. Sure, it's good, but nothing to write home about, it's over 20 points for single wound model that melts to literally anything, and, if you load on storm bolters, is only ever good against a narrow range of targets. Anything vehicle heavy? Auto-loss. Anything with actually good saves or FNP? Usually more point efficient than you. Anything that can stay out 12 inch range or can close the gap in 1 turn? You're frakked. The only real anti-tank DW gets is really expensive frag cannon and every single one of these in DW squad means two storm bolters less. Etc, etc, if SM are overcosted, then DW is so bad in this regard I'd rather take on good half of the armies in this game with mono-SM than mono-DW.
Funnily enough, DW veterans get a gun that would be quite good on Primaris, their own version of stalker (that frankly has stats the Primaris variant should have had in the first place to begin with) but it's a gun that is bad on veterans as they are fragile models paying for a lot of stuff stalker veterans won't ever use, while the models who could actually use it to full capacity can't. And that actually sums up DW pretty well - mythical ""OP"" stuff that is good on paper but turns out to be bad in full context of units that actually get to use it, with lack of synergies everywhere...
Xenomancers wrote: I'm saying the are OP in comparison to space marine intercessors. +2 points for those stats? Gotta be kidding.
Judging by Eldar, DE, and a few more units from other books, these ""OP"" stats should be either free to make up for overcosted models or at best 1 point (with free pistols).
Oh, wait, it's another 'Guard squads should be 10 points per model', only with DW as the scarecrow this time, isn't it?
Daedalus81 wrote: FLG is talking SoCal right now and are addressing the building thing.
What did they say?
Fairly nuanced, but came down to terrain being something you need to factor and to build your list accordingly instead of taking all flyers, etc.
In regards to 32mm charging - they said infantry ignore walls so you wobbly model the chargers.
Pretty hilarious, as you can't really ever plan for terrain. Sometimes you'll get adepticon levels of gakky terrain, sometimes you get warhammer world amazing setups.
Sometimes you end up with unpainted blocks of foam.
Better make sure you activate your almonds and have a big brain the day before so you can anticipate those changes.
Yep, imagine walking into this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 21:10:22
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
Because the problem is the same. They die to fast.
Its the GK problem. You can make em more killy but now your a more expensive marine that dies like a marine.
I absolutely agree and that is my problem with them specifically. Primaris ones die too fast because of no invulns and a surplus of multiple damage weapons.
Really - I think the consitency of flat 2 damage needs to be removed - if every weapon that was flat 2 went to d3 damage. 2 wound models all get a buff.
Flat 3 is less of a problem because it's more rare and is often comparable to a d6 weapon which has the potential to kill big things in 1 shot. The balance between these 2 is fine. Flat 2 is so much better than d3 it's not even funny.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Deathwatch were actually doing well at SoCal. Any time you win 4+ games that's a good tournament. Stop acting like you have to be top 5 to be good. People battling for the top 5 can lose and drop down to 30th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 21:12:38
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I'm pretty sure the point, Irbis, is that in a world where the marine body is costed appropriately Deathwatch killteams would be significantly overtuned. Xeno misconstrued it with his usual "the only thing that matters is how good your shooting is" nonsense but that was the overall argument for the Deathwatch discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 21:13:02
Ah, the standard FLG response:
1. Deny there is a problem
2. Acknowledge a problem, but blame it on you
3. Produce a solution to fix you, the average player
4. Talk about how great they are.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Martel732 wrote: They're not op. Sheesh. Still power armor that dies easily.
Yes, but the special ammo is worth more than two points. DW Intercessors still may not be very good, but it is completely ludicrous how much better they're than the vanilla ones.
Funny how that works. They are ludicrously better than the vanilla version and still not all that good.
They actually *are* quite good. Better if you have a table with lots of ruins.
Wounding Grotesques on 2s? Flyrants on 2s? Primarch's on 2s? Dropping all to invuln save? You can't make the case this isn't good. The rest of the codex may have problems but that isn't what we're discussing here. You can also mix and match squads so they can fall back and shoot, or put a stormshield in a unit... so flexible. And can deep strike.
These guys are still cheaper than a PAGK.
If you're required to have VERY specific terrain for a unit to be good...the unit isn't good. That's not even up for discussion.
Regarding Strike Squads, they get the native Deep Strike and have 2 attacks at AP-2 DD3. I'm not defending them as fantastic but they're at least not garbage like the rest of the codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 21:24:41
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure the point, Irbis, is that in a world where the marine body is costed appropriately Deathwatch killteams would be significantly overtuned. Xeno misconstrued it with his usual "the only thing that matters is how good your shooting is" nonsense but that was the overall argument for the Deathwatch discussion.
Yep. It is an intra-marine balance issue. And no point crying about the one point bolt pistol; you effectively pay two points to have SIA on your Intercessors. And that's way too little. It's just that the Intercessor base cost is way too high to begin with, so the end result is something reasonablish.
greyknight12 wrote: Ah, the standard FLG response:
1. Deny there is a problem
2. Acknowledge a problem, but blame it on you
3. Produce a solution to fix you, the average player
4. Talk about how great they are.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - not sure why DW doesn't place better. Their weapons stats compared to marines are bonkers and exceptionally under-costed for the upgrade.
Oh, look, it's Xenomancer has no idea what he is talking about episode.
First, DW models are overcosted across the board. All of them.
Second, even ignoring the above, these bolt pistols that are normally free for SM? They cost points in DW. Since you can't take them off Primaris, they are now overcosted from two different sources, for something you won't use in 95% of games. Gee, that sure sounds great!
Third, these ""OP"" guns? Let's take a look at them. Auto bolt rifle is really overcosted for what it does and just bad. Stalker is both overcosted and useless - because it has only 1 shot and can't even claim full bonus from special ammo - it's literally so bad that even if it was free no one would take it. Bolt rifle is OK but it makes DW Primaris mono-loadout (not even GL, seriously), inflexible unit that has a real bite only to 15 inch and is quite slow. That is not OP by any means and thanks to the two above issues is actually overcosted as package too. And that is the only Primaris unit that gets the special ammo, the Agressors or Inceptors who could actually do something with it don't get it, but they got points hike for no reason whatsoever (I am ignoring Reivers here because it's either trip to Overcostbadville with rifles or plinking away tiny number of pistol shots no one sane would be afraid of).
Now, the big boogeyman itself, the storm bolter. Sure, it's good, but nothing to write home about, it's over 20 points for single wound model that melts to literally anything, and, if you load on storm bolters, is only ever good against a narrow range of targets. Anything vehicle heavy? Auto-loss. Anything with actually good saves or FNP? Usually more point efficient than you. Anything that can stay out 12 inch range or can close the gap in 1 turn? You're frakked. The only real anti-tank DW gets is really expensive frag cannon and every single one of these in DW squad means two storm bolters less. Etc, etc, if SM are overcosted, then DW is so bad in this regard I'd rather take on good half of the armies in this game with mono-SM than mono-DW.
Funnily enough, DW veterans get a gun that would be quite good on Primaris, their own version of stalker (that frankly has stats the Primaris variant should have had in the first place to begin with) but it's a gun that is bad on veterans as they are fragile models paying for a lot of stuff stalker veterans won't ever use, while the models who could actually use it to full capacity can't. And that actually sums up DW pretty well - mythical ""OP"" stuff that is good on paper but turns out to be bad in full context of units that actually get to use it, with lack of synergies everywhere...
Xenomancers wrote: I'm saying the are OP in comparison to space marine intercessors. +2 points for those stats? Gotta be kidding.
Judging by Eldar, DE, and a few more units from other books, these ""OP"" stats should be either free to make up for overcosted models or at best 1 point (with free pistols).
Oh, wait, it's another 'Guard squads should be 10 points per model', only with DW as the scarecrow this time, isn't it?
I guess you just aren't paying attention because I'm not saying anything that you are saying.
I'm just going to ignore your rudeness and speak to your argument.
First - a space marine intercessor costs 18 and comes with a bolt pisol and a bolt rifle.
A deathwatch intercessor comes with these things and cost 20 points. For this 2 point upgrade - both of it weapons get special issue ammo. Which will practically double your damage against most non vehical units. 11% increase in price to do probably around 100% more damage on average when applied to the right targets.
Lets shoot a hive tyrant with 2+ to wound bolt with bolt rifles.
10 man intercessor with no buffs averages barely over 2 wounds.
10 man Space marine intercessor buffed by guilliman averages 5 failed saves
10 man DW intercessor averages 6 failed saves - with full reroll to hit it's 7.2 failed saves.
Notice...DW intercessors unbuffed are better than space marine intercessors buffed by Gman - when they shoot at t5-t7 non vehicle targets
How about an IG infantry?
10 man un buffed space marine intercessor - a little over 7 kills
10 man unbuffed space marine intercessor with Gman kills 13
10 man DW Intercessor unbuffed kills 9
10 man DW with full reroll to hit kills 12
Here we are again (this is basically the worst example you can think of because intercessors are already really good at killing guardsmen) Still though - we have DW units shooting like they are buffed by GMAN himself - without paying 400 gakking points for a buff unit.
Yeah - stalker bolt rifles are bad - you just don't use them - space marine players don't use them ether. They are in fact ALOT better on a DW unit though. You can ignore aliotoc -1 to hit. Get full rerolls and put tons of ap-2 wounds on dark reapers in cover (+1 to hit units in cover bolt)
We don't even need to go into the fact you can protect your agressors and inceptors and hell blasters with much cheaper intercessor units in combined units - or the fact that these units actually confer additional bonuses to the units.
Like seriously...the guy who wrote the DW codex was high on crack when he wrote it or something. Or he maybe just had a much better idea what a space marine army (yeah...deathwatch are just space marines) should actaully play like.
It really is hard for me to imagine that ANYONE could honestly thing DW are fair standing next to space marines. If a DW intercessors is worth 20 - A space marine intercessor should be 13-14 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure the point, Irbis, is that in a world where the marine body is costed appropriately Deathwatch killteams would be significantly overtuned. Xeno misconstrued it with his usual "the only thing that matters is how good your shooting is" nonsense but that was the overall argument for the Deathwatch discussion.
Not sure where I said that man.
What I am saying is in a world where a space marine intercessor is 18 points. A DW intercessor should probably be worth like 23-24. Since the space marine intercessor is overcosted by something like 3-4 points. If DW got the same base point adjustment they would be 20-21 points - Pretty much where they are now.
The really are pretty good. Anyone not playing their space marines as DW at this point is just uninformed - or stupid in the head like me. They are hands down the best space marine chapter bar none.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure the point, Irbis, is that in a world where the marine body is costed appropriately Deathwatch killteams would be significantly overtuned. Xeno misconstrued it with his usual "the only thing that matters is how good your shooting is" nonsense but that was the overall argument for the Deathwatch discussion.
Yep. It is an intra-marine balance issue. And no point crying about the one point bolt pistol; you effectively pay two points to have SIA on your Intercessors. And that's way too little. It's just that the Intercessor base cost is way too high to begin with, so the end result is something reasonablish.
exactly.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/10/31 23:40:49
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Oh hi there! I don't know about you, but I like to play DW Intercessors. To be honest, I was sorely dissappointed with Primaris before switching to DW. Now I can benchpress 400lbs, speak Portuguese, and the girls all love a tall, dark, (xenophobic fascist) stranger.
So why not come over to the guys who put the 'prim' in 'Primaris'?
Daedalus81 wrote: FLG is talking SoCal right now and are addressing the building thing.
What did they say?
Fairly nuanced, but came down to terrain being something you need to factor and to build your list accordingly instead of taking all flyers, etc.
In regards to 32mm charging - they said infantry ignore walls so you wobbly model the chargers.
Pretty hilarious, as you can't really ever plan for terrain. Sometimes you'll get adepticon levels of gakky terrain, sometimes you get warhammer world amazing setups.
Sometimes you end up with unpainted blocks of foam.
Better make sure you activate your almonds and have a big brain the day before so you can anticipate those changes.
I think the broader point is don't complain when you brought an all jetbike army and can't get into buildings.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: Ah, the standard FLG response:
1. Deny there is a problem
2. Acknowledge a problem, but blame it on you
3. Produce a solution to fix you, the average player
4. Talk about how great they are.
Aside from the wobbly model syndrome thing you should probably listen directly to what he said and address his points if you disagree instead of a post like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 02:12:22
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