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We’ve started a map based campaign at the club. Currently got a 4 loss streak going so not the best intro to the game.

Basically:

Game 1 - Goliath, couldn’t hurt them. Literally was one guy with a thunder hammer punking the whole gang. Leader went out first turn due to scenario.

Game 2 - Escher came in and minced me in close combat. Gas grenade knocked out the leader, heavy was out with injury.

Game 3 - Shootout where he downed me instantly. I flesh wound one Van Saar twice. Then one of the juves knocks out both of mine instantly.

Game 4 - Van Saar tanked my shooting and minced half my gang with lascarbines.Got first kill which was a Cawdor juve who took a boltgun to the face.

Gang -

Leader, whip, combi bolter

Champion, chemthrower, stiletto knife

Champion, autogun, stiletto knife

3 gangers with lasguns and stiletto knives

1 ganger with two laspistols and a stiletto

Juve stiletto knife and pistol

I think the Chen thrower and leader are a points sink because Iam not close enough to use the Chen thrower and the one time I got to use it the Van Saar just played a tactics card and ignored it. If the leader or Chen thrower goes down then the gang is pretty useless.

Lasguns seem pointless, especially since every gang I fight is packing 5 or 4 plus armour as standard. Goliath just ignore it whilst I go down instantly whenever I get shot at or are in close combat.

I don’t quite see what the gangs advantage is. Van Saar have better firepower and armour. Goliath are tougher and stronger. Having an extra inch of movement (which IMO doesn’t matter because most people do not accurately measure).

I didn’t think the default gang would be this bad. We all had 1000 points to start so Iam at a loss with where I’ve went wrong here. Currently Iam incredibly far behind. I’ve already decided Iam not playing any of Van Saar gangs since both of them are stupidly better XP’d and etched up now. The arbitrator seriously needs to step in otherwise they will dominate the campaign before its first phase. They already have most of the territory whereas other gangs only have it’s starting area. He’s talked about using hired guns to offset this but Iam not remotely convinced.

If there's another Escher gang, buy respirators.

I've found the Champion with the chem-thrower turns up every other game; she usually gets into position to gas a couple of gangers (if you're going up against Goliaths and you get to choose the Tactics cards, choose the one that adds to the die roll for gas weapons), then gets shot and spends the next game in Recovery. It's more useful in a Zone Mortalis game, I find. If you find it's no good, buy that Champion something different and do an alternative Fighter Card with the other weapons.

Lasguns are good for Pinning. even if you aren't wounding, that model still has to waste an action getting back up. That means they won't be charging or firing an aimed shot.

That inch of movement adds up if you're playing a "grab the loot" scenario, and the improved Initiative is good for avoiding falls, and comes in handy in conjunction with quite a few skills.

Try playing Van Saar and setting up the darkness tiles from the Delta-7 Badlands tile set, or the darkness mission from Gang War ...3? 4? (and check with your Arbitrator if you can use the House Appeals rules from GW3). Or the scenarios that garner you a lot of cash, such as Spook Harvest.

Gang Moot is quite good for getting all the gang leaders right up next to each other - if you can find a way of tiltiing the odds of getting the initiative in turn 1 in your favour, you can take out the enemy gang leader right away before anyone else gets to react.

If one gang is getting a big advantage, have you considered allying with the other Escher gang to bring them down a peg or two?

What skills do your Leader and Champions have? That can make a difference.

Parry for the leader. Doesn’t work on power weapons apparently....

A few other agility abilities on the other two that have never been relevant.

The gang is already one of the smallest. Spending my money on rebreathers wouldn’t net benefits and it’s never been relevant because even pinned my gang can’t take the return fire. If I don’t win I can’t get the territory to get money.

We don’t set the scenario. The idea was that there would be 24 territories up for grabs and that after six games each player should have a smattering if territory. The problem is that new players have been wrecked in the starting games and now the two regular Can Saar (who never play each other or on the ZM board) are just far too dominant.

Well the issue is that it’s unclear if we can gang up on people. Plus Iam not convinced this would make a difference since their gunline can demolish any gang with impunity.

Apologies for being somewhat off topic in my response, but I so wish there was a Necromunda scene at the game shop where I play.

Necromunda completely, absolutely, and totally bombed at my local GW. No one who goes to that GW plays Necromunda at all. It's just sad. And, I don't have the time (as a newlywed with a three year old stepson) to be able to spend enough time there to get something going.

:(

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
Apologies for being somewhat off topic in my response, but I so wish there was a Necromunda scene at the game shop where I play.

Necromunda completely, absolutely, and totally bombed at my local GW. No one who goes to that GW plays Necromunda at all. It's just sad. And, I don't have the time (as a newlywed with a three year old stepson) to be able to spend enough time there to get something going.

:(

SG

I think you need the terrain to make the game come to life. Most players and local stores don’t have that.

Your champions should be set up for cc I think. Escher get great combat skills. Maybe try dropping the combi bolter and the chem thrower and load up with a chainsword or Power sword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you do want a chem.thrower then give it to.one of your gangers. Better for them to have a template weapon so you can take advantage of the better BS of the champion with another weapon.

You can't use the Parry skill against a power weapon - unless you're also parrying with a power weapon.

It sounds like you're playing a Dominion campaign? Ideally, try to arrange things so that you can make 60 credits per game - that can buy you a new ganger with a lasgun to quickly bulk up your gang numbers. If that means you need to keep your Leader and Champions out of harms way, buy them a decent gun in the short term.

The rebreathers was in response to your first comment about getting gassed by the other Escher gang - if a gas weapon fails to affect your fighter then they're not even pinned (as I've found out to my cost against Goliaths), and getting +2 to your T means the attacker's odds of affecting you are halved.

"We don't set the scenario"; is that a house rule? If so, get rid of it. The whole point is that the underdog gets to choose the scenario to their advantage. if that's not the case, then your campaign is broken. Who [I]does[/] set the scenario?

In my campaign, when I was behind I chose Spook Harvest to get quick cash, or scenarios with limited numbers to limit the casualties where something went wrong. Against a gunline gang, if that player is only there to play to win, I'd simply avoid playing them as much as possible. If they were engaging with the campaign, then I'd be looking at scenarios or Tactics cards to give me an advantage.

Offhand I can't remember if the person who chooses the scenario (usually the player with the lower Gang Rating) also chooses the table type or if it's determined randomly.

THE critical issue with Eschers is Bottle checks. Once you fail the check, you may as well accept your gang is going to start melting away. If you aren't very close to victory, you aren't going to win. Playing beyond a failed Bottle check is asking for trouble.

Similarly, once any gang takes a casualty or three, things can start looking iffy. Even for Van Saar. Inflicting the first casualties is often the key to success in a game. I wish I had the chess-master ability to play three turns in advance. Unless it's stupidly obvious what I need to be doing, I don't. So, I try to isolate and overwhelm a fighter or two or three. Early on. Get the ball rolling, so to speak. Without taking undo risks. Give an opponent pause to think, and maybe an excuse to Bottle out himself. Here, dense terrain is key. If the opponent has overlapping fields of fire, that wont work so good. And, always, eyes on the prize. If there is a way to win the game without eliminating the opponent, do it!

You can't win'em all. You can lose games and still hang in the campaign. To a point. But, that can be overdone.

Finally, the Dominion Campaign does some good things. It makes Leaders and Champions fighters again, instead of bookkeepers. It also makes Rare Trade items accessible. And, advancements are not so heavily XP taxed (check out the subtle changes, there). BUT, as usual, they have introduced some bugs in the program. Not all territories are the same. Some just suck. While others are over-the-top. And, this is a rich-get-richer campaign. Add in better armor, better wargear, and weapons of mass destruction, and this ain't impoverished gangs eking out a meager existence no more. Yes, in the second half you can take territories from others. But, the gangs with lot's of territories are the best equipped. If anything, they start taking territories away from gangs who only have one or two. I think we are all supposed to meet on our ancestral regiment's regular club night, don our tweed jackets, pour some single-malt, light up pipes (tobacco, NOT wacky-weed), discuss the difficulties of yacht maintenance, and have a merry territory challenge round-robin. It don't seem to be that civilized and orderly in real life.

I think you’ve hamstrung yourself a little bit with your original gang composition.

Whilst I like the chem thrower it’s too expensive for a starting gang, the cost will net you two naked Gangers and a Juve, which in turn will help with not failing bottle checks and having to take the subsequent Cool checks, Escher have a relatively poor cool stat so best to avoid them for as long as possible.

Leaders and champions should probably be equipped with close combat load outs, I like a stiletto or power sword and plasma pistol personally.

Gangers with lasguns and stiletto knife is a bit of miss match in equipment and would save you 60 creds (by allocating the knives to other gangers).

Also Step Aside is, I feel, a far better skill than Parry to start your champions with (although I like Spring Up and Sprint too for AP efficiency).

I think Escher are quite a good counter to Van Saar, they can start with smoke and photon flash grenades allowing for safer movement forward and then blinding them due to their low initiative (which essentially means they miss a turn!).

If Van Saar are still causing problems keep them honest by choosing a few Shoot Out scenarios, you should be cutting them down in the street before they even get a chance to react with your far superior Initiative.

At the end of the day Necromunda is a “play for fun” type game, ultra competitiveness does not lend itself well to that (and those types of people do tend to find themselves drawn to Van Saar which exasperates the problem).

Good luck.

If you want something cheesy for Escher, how about shotguns with acid rounds? Cost 45 credits, in house weapon list so no limitation or extra cost. Str 3 scattershot with blaze on hit seems very good!

Escher I think benefit from action economy the most. You want a swarm of lasguns and only a few real killers. You keep your killers in cover with action economy until the enemy has done all the things, and then your killers can move unharassed for a turn.

Bottling really hasn’t been an issue. Usually most of the gang goes down in a single turn and then I’ll voluntarily bottle once I’ve only got a handful left.

Subsequent to the battles above, I had a game with a lower ranking Cawdor gang. Basically all the same issues of being outgunned, outranged, basically useless lasgunners who don’t contribute anything. Took four of his people down but I can’t really compete with the templates, sniper and blast weapons. So that’s the fifth loss.

I am gonna have another game on Sunday but at this rate it’s hard to see how Iam supposed to build the gang up without income or territory. I’ve been fairly lucky so far to avoid my people dying or suffering stat reductions. I think I’ll probably quietly drop out if that’s the case.

Personally I think the Escher have a really poor stat line. They’ve got low str and toughness. They’ve got poor armour. Cawdor has similar movement to them and one extra mvt doesn’t really matter since, IMO, that’s easily fudged when people are moving their figures around. So Iam not honestly sure what their gimic is?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:
Escher I think benefit from action economy the most. You want a swarm of lasguns and only a few real killers. You keep your killers in cover with action economy until the enemy has done all the things, and then your killers can move unharassed for a turn.

Every other gang has more people than me. All my killing stuff is short range and I can’t really hide from enemy guns. Negative to hit is offset by how squishy Escher are.

I tend to avoid giving template weapons to the charcters with the best BS.

I made my leader/champs shooty (Plasma Pistol, Bolter, Heavy Stubber), plus extra choppy for the leader.

Bolters are nasty things. Make good use of them. If you need the chem thrower, stick it on someone with BS4+, not BS3+.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Personally I think the Escher have a really poor stat line. They’ve got low str and toughness. They’ve got poor armour. Cawdor has similar movement to them and one extra mvt doesn’t really matter since, IMO, that’s easily fudged when people are moving their figures around. So Iam not honestly sure what their gimic is?

So "+1M doesn't matter because opponents cheat"? I could say "6+ doesn't matter because I will simply count 5's as 6's".

If your opponents are cheating with movement be strict on that. Don't allow it. Period. It's not like we are talking about moving 200 model ork swarm(and even there at least edges of units should be moved carefully) so not doing proper measurements shouldn't be too hard.

Seriously sounds like you play with horrible play group. Are you sure you aren't being cheated on other things as well? Maybe check their rosters yourself. Maybe there's couple "accidental" juves as well...

It is curious, you should have numerous a numerous gang (my friend played 13 Eschers at 1000 credits, and even if I dislike the way he did it, 10 shouldn't be difficult to reach).
Eschers are not bad at middle range thanks to easily available and cheap ganger with lasgun pinning the opponent: sure, you don't have fast shooting BS3+ plasma gun, but a single lasgun hit will stop him from shooting.
Don't go too heavy on equipments (chemthrower on champ for example).
Do you play 3D or 2D ? Do you use cards ?

I started with a small gang because if you're careful in the opening games to keep your Champions and Leader uninjured you can usually make enough money to buy one new ganger per battle, whereas the chem-thrower requires the self-control to save up for a couple of games.

If you're playing on Sector Mechanicus tables, there's a card that turns a miss into a guaranteed pin - handy if the Van Saar leader with terrible I is firing a plasma gun from an elevated position.

Frag grenades have knockback - again handy for knocking people off ledges.

If you're outnumbered, choose scenarios to mitigate that; especially if you can get ones that let you outnumber your opponent.

 godardc wrote:
It is curious, you should have numerous a numerous gang (my friend played 13 Eschers at 1000 credits, and even if I dislike the way he did it, 10 shouldn't be difficult to reach).
Eschers are not bad at middle range thanks to easily available and cheap ganger with lasgun pinning the opponent: sure, you don't have fast shooting BS3+ plasma gun, but a single lasgun hit will stop him from shooting.
Don't go too heavy on equipments (chemthrower on champ for example).
Do you play 3D or 2D ? Do you use cards ?

You need to actually hit the ganger to pin them and honestly this rarely matters since they can kill me even without the aim action.

Well yeah most of the gangs seem to come with a kitted our leader and a heavy. The gang is effectively THE Escher starting gang less some hangers on.

We have both and we do have a lot of scenery but I’ve only had one game on the ZM board because it’s bland to look at.

Plus you have to remember that the Van Saar have had over five games to get territory and money. So they may have only had 6 or so to start but now they are pushing 13. But the numbers were bad from the get go.

Yeah we use cards


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Personally I think the Escher have a really poor stat line. They’ve got low str and toughness. They’ve got poor armour. Cawdor has similar movement to them and one extra mvt doesn’t really matter since, IMO, that’s easily fudged when people are moving their figures around. So Iam not honestly sure what their gimic is?

So "+1M doesn't matter because opponents cheat"? I could say "6+ doesn't matter because I will simply count 5's as 6's".

If your opponents are cheating with movement be strict on that. Don't allow it. Period. It's not like we are talking about moving 200 model ork swarm(and even there at least edges of units should be moved carefully) so not doing proper measurements shouldn't be too hard.

Seriously sounds like you play with horrible play group. Are you sure you aren't being cheated on other things as well? Maybe check their rosters yourself. Maybe there's couple "accidental" juves as well...

Well it also isn’t important. On 3 by 3 table and with negatives for traversing cover a bonus move doesn’t amount to much and certainly doesn’t offset a poor equipment and stat line. It’s a really negligible advantage.

It's the difference between getting up a level (if you're using GW scenery) in a single move or needing to take two moves. It gives you a slight advantage in getting into melee or into cover. It's not alweays beneficial, but it's handy. Not as good a benefit as the increased I, admittedly.

I agree Escher feels like hard mode sometimes. Literally dont mean this patronisingly, but are you definitiely playing all the rules correctly? I'm still learning Necromunda, and I know I didnt clock a few things at first. With short range accuracy bonus, and using an aim action you should be almost guarenteed to pin things which arent in cover. Stilleto's are another one I overlooked until I read the FAQ's. They're actually brutal! Pin to win is their general gimic though I think. I've never had much joy with chem synth etc. Pin, and then clean up with stilleto's on the charge. Even basic gangers can become champ and leader killers with a good roll for combat. Maybe try using more pitfall tiles etc too, and make sure they make their checks for being pinned near them..

As a Goliath player, losing even a single ganger during a campaign game can have a bad effect down the road. My honest suggestion against them, if the scenario allows, is to focus on getting his gangers OOA one at a time, starting with a leader or Champion. Once you start downing his dudes, he should voluntarily bottle and lick his wounds.

My friend plays Escher, and we played a one-off game with our full 1000 creds. Turn two he used a tactic to open a door for free, and proceeded to walk up and put a slug in my one ganger's face. He went OOA on the damage dice, and if it was a campaign I would have bottled right there.

We are tough, but we are few, and expensive to replace.

Well, Iam pretty much out the campaign. I’ve lost both my champions and my leader has been crippled stat wise. The gang is 800 points and everyone else is rocking 2000 plus point gangs. I also don’t have a single territory so will never get the funds to replace the losses.

Sounds like its time for the campaign organiser to do some work giving you a bit of a leg up or the option to restart or something. Or perhaps secure an alliance with a more powerful house so you can get a chance to get back into the game. Unless they are going for an elimination style approach, one of the core aspects of Necromunda is balancing it so that choices have impact, but also so that players don't actually get knocked out of the game (unless, as I said, its an intentional concept or its the end-game for it where everyone iw knocking each other out).

It used to be much better balance in old campaign. If you started off badly, you could just restart. And with the XP underdog bonus, you could catch up quickly. Back then, Leaders were bloated in terms of cost, so losing them could make your team more cost-efficient. Now in N17, Leaders are a bargain so when they are gone, you can never replace that cost-efficiency (and so will be underdog against an identical gang where the leader is not replaced).

Escher is taking a turn for the worse with the new Toxin rules. Basically nerfed to Toughness check (still ignores wounds), but Injury dice roll instead of OoA/Seriously Injured.

Versatile on the other hand got a nice boost.

Baxx wrote:
It used to be much better balance in old campaign. If you started off badly, you could just restart. And with the XP underdog bonus, you could catch up quickly. Back then, Leaders were bloated in terms of cost, so losing them could make your team more cost-efficient. Now in N17, Leaders are a bargain so when they are gone, you can never replace that cost-efficiency (and so will be underdog against an identical gang where the leader is not replaced).

Escher is taking a turn for the worse with the new Toxin rules. Basically nerfed to Toughness check (still ignores wounds), but Injury dice roll instead of OoA/Seriously Injured.

Versatile on the other hand got a nice boost.

Yeah Iam probably going to quietly drop out of this one. I don’t think the GM assumed it was possible that there was going to be that much of a gap. His plan had been that the difference in points could be spent on scum and bounty hunters. IMO that doesn’t make much sense, I kind of want to play as my gang and don’t have the time or interest to make one use models for them.

 Goff Boss wrote:
I agree Escher feels like hard mode sometimes. Literally dont mean this patronisingly, but are you definitiely playing all the rules correctly? I'm still learning Necromunda, and I know I didnt clock a few things at first. With short range accuracy bonus, and using an aim action you should be almost guarenteed to pin things which arent in cover. Stilleto's are another one I overlooked until I read the FAQ's. They're actually brutal! Pin to win is their general gimic though I think. I've never had much joy with chem synth etc. Pin, and then clean up with stilleto's on the charge. Even basic gangers can become champ and leader killers with a good roll for combat. Maybe try using more pitfall tiles etc too, and make sure they make their checks for being pinned near them..

Well he already has mentioned his group cheats openly so wouldn't surprise me if rules in general are incorrectly played.

If you’re doing that badly, you should have been rolling on the House Favours table at +3. Not the be-all and end-all, but it can help. And choosing scenarios to counteract the disadvantages. Pick ones that limit the number of fighters, and then the bonus tactics cards are usually based on the difference in gang rating, not on the value of the crews that turn up - at 800 vs 2000 you should be getting five or six bonus tatctics cards each time.