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 Trimarius wrote:

If you're worried about kicking off the +1 chain in shooting, why not include a few Mek Gunz? While they can never get the bonus, they're still Freeboota models, they're cheap, and they can hopefully pop something at the start of the shooting phase to get things going.

I really don't think the rules intend to allow Mek Gunz to trigger Competitive Streak, and I'm not even convinced it's RAW either. They're Freeboota models, but being a Freeboota doesn't trigger the +1. The "Competitive Streak" kultur does, and grots don't benefit from that. Now, some folks argue that being able to trigger +1 to hit in nearby units isn't "benefiting", so grots can still do it, but I think that's..... unlikely. I'm going to play without that loophole.

Im sure the mek gun issue will get cleared up in the FAQ.

Am I right in thinking that Erratss are supposed to drop 2 weeks after the codex?

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:

If you're worried about kicking off the +1 chain in shooting, why not include a few Mek Gunz? While they can never get the bonus, they're still Freeboota models, they're cheap, and they can hopefully pop something at the start of the shooting phase to get things going.

I really don't think the rules intend to allow Mek Gunz to trigger Competitive Streak, and I'm not even convinced it's RAW either. They're Freeboota models, but being a Freeboota doesn't trigger the +1. The "Competitive Streak" kultur does, and grots don't benefit from that. Now, some folks argue that being able to trigger +1 to hit in nearby units isn't "benefiting", so grots can still do it, but I think that's..... unlikely. I'm going to play without that loophole.

It is RaW. Not liking what a rule does doesn't change what it does.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:

If you're worried about kicking off the +1 chain in shooting, why not include a few Mek Gunz? While they can never get the bonus, they're still Freeboota models, they're cheap, and they can hopefully pop something at the start of the shooting phase to get things going.

I really don't think the rules intend to allow Mek Gunz to trigger Competitive Streak, and I'm not even convinced it's RAW either. They're Freeboota models, but being a Freeboota doesn't trigger the +1. The "Competitive Streak" kultur does, and grots don't benefit from that. Now, some folks argue that being able to trigger +1 to hit in nearby units isn't "benefiting", so grots can still do it, but I think that's..... unlikely. I'm going to play without that loophole.

The interpretation does rely on some slightly shaky assumptions based on the way GW worded the little Grots Exclusion rule.

Rather than the usual route they take excluding other units, they didn't simply not give Grots the <clan> tag, and the rule they gave them says "they can't benefit from a clan kultur" not "they don't GET a clan kultur."

So grots actually do have the "Competitive Streak" rule if they are in a detachment entirely composed of Freeboota models. They just can't benefit - they get no effect from the rule. it's the other unit nearby them that's getting the effect.

As it stands, it is how the rule works. Will it be how the rule works in a week or so? Debatable. I'm betting this gets resolved by the good ol classic

"Q: Can a model with Competitive Streak trigger the +1 to hit if a gretchin unit with the Freebootas Clan destroys a unit within 24"?"
"A: No."

no explanation, and no change of the rule, just a special rule exception where this one particular rule doesn't work the way it was written.

Yeah, the grots don't do anything with the kulture, they just have it and kill something. The models that want the +1 are the ones that check for the condition (i.e. was something destroyed); if a unit was destroyed by another Freeboota model, it checks and they get their bonus (provided they themselves aren't grots, obviously).

Somewhat related, has anyone else run the numbers on Big Gunz vs. Mek Gunz? As they still get the clan kultures (the gun doesn't have the gretchin tag), DeathSkulls Kannons are surprisingly potent little pop guns. They crank out more damage per point vs heavy vehicles than any of the other Gunz (Mek or Big): ~6% more vs. T7 3+ and ~26% more vs. T8 3+ than a Smasha (the otherwise winner) with invul saves only tipping it further in their favor. Obviously the Traktor Kannons have their niche of shooting down -to hit flyers, but those rerolls on everything for a bog standard Kannon are nice. A free 6++ and ObSec aren't bad, either, so if you aren't in an ETC tourney they seem like a contender.

 Trimarius wrote:
Yeah, the grots don't do anything with the kulture, they just have it and kill something. The models that want the +1 are the ones that check for the condition (i.e. was something destroyed); if a unit was destroyed by another Freeboota model, it checks and they get their bonus (provided they themselves aren't grots, obviously).

Somewhat related, has anyone else run the numbers on Big Gunz vs. Mek Gunz? As they still get the clan kultures (the gun doesn't have the gretchin tag), DeathSkulls Kannons are surprisingly potent little pop guns. They crank out more damage per point vs heavy vehicles than any of the other Gunz (Mek or Big): ~6% more vs. T7 3+ and ~26% more vs. T8 3+ than a Smasha (the otherwise winner) with invul saves only tipping it further in their favor. Obviously the Traktor Kannons have their niche of shooting down -to hit flyers, but those rerolls on everything for a bog standard Kannon are nice. A free 6++ and ObSec aren't bad, either, so if you aren't in an ETC tourney they seem like a contender.

Im farily certain big gunz will get erratad. So I would enjoy your deffskullz big gunz now.

I’m waiting for the FAQ to drop before I really invest in things.

Don’t forget that BigGunz have 12” less range than the MekGunz; that can easily come into play - especially since moving Gunz is so slow.

The erratas are usually 2 weeks after the codex right? So are they actually released during the weekend or are the before/after it?

I'm suprised about this hype towards Deathskulls and Freebooters, IMHO they're among the worst clan. Best ones are Evil Sunz + Bad Moons, by far. And I like Goffs as well, mostly because my armies are very assault oriented. Snakebites are a bit lackluster but 6+ FNP to the entire detachment could help maybe. Blood Axes are not my style of playing.

Freeboters have a nice combo but Bad Moons shooters look more reliable and Deathskulls only work by using the index. MSU style also gives you second turn most of the times, and going first with orks is probably the most important thing. Otherwise they're really the worst clan, along with Blood Axes.

I think there's a lot to be said, at least while it lasts and for those whose groups allow it, for the Deathskull Brigade utilising Index wargear.



Totals 687 points which leaves space for considerable investments in a Evil Sunz Battalion and a Bad Moons Spearhead/Vanguard/Flyer Wing while itself adding a decent amount of almost-reliable multi-damage shooting. Reaching 21 CP is very achievable, there's ample screens/objective holders and plenty of points left to spend on CP users. The Warpheads cover our best psychic powers and can Da Jump each other or themselves as required in later turns, after Da Jumping a Mobbed Up unit of Evil Sunz Slugga Boyz in the first turn.

My first thoughts of detachments to add would be something like this:



Fairly self-explanatory, Brigade holds objectives, Meganobz set up in Tellyporta and Dakkajets clear a hole for them.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm suprised about this hype towards Deathskulls and Freebooters, IMHO they're among the worst clan. Best ones are Evil Sunz + Bad Moons, by far.

You may *like* Evil Sunz or Bad Moons better, but it doesn't mean they're actually the best clans.

If someone wants to run MSU with Dragstas, SAG Big Mek or Trukk boyz with a single Rokkit and a Klaw nob, Deathskulls are better than Evil Sunz. If you run the numbers, you'll see that these units perform incredibly with the Deathskulls kulture. Also, the whole army gets a 6+ invulnerable for FREE. That alone is arguably better than the Snakebite's kulture.
If someone wants to run Flash Gits, Freebooters is actually a better kulture than Bad Moons and makes the Gits fairly competitive. There's a chart in this very thread that proves this.

This codex allows for multiple competitive builds and that's a very good thing. Not all klans will be "Top 10 viable" of course, but you gotta at least wait for a major tournament before making bold statements.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm suprised about this hype towards Deathskulls and Freebooters, IMHO they're among the worst clan. Best ones are Evil Sunz + Bad Moons, by far. And I like Goffs as well, mostly because my armies are very assault oriented. Snakebites are a bit lackluster but 6+ FNP to the entire detachment could help maybe. Blood Axes are not my style of playing.

Deathskulls have a universal 6+ invul that can be combined with cybork body, super cybork body and dok tools. That reroll to hit, wound and damage is useful for single shot, high strength and variable damage weapons, just as klaws and Kustom Mega type weapons. They can do MSU pretty well, but hoard is also viable due to the extra defenses. They are way better than snakebites, which only have the FNP that can't stack with anything.

Also don't forget that the main feather in the deathskulls cap is OBJ SEC infantry models. Kommandos, mega nobz, nobs, warbosses, big meks, weirdboys, meks, lootas, flashgitz, tankbustas, stormboyz, burna boyz, painboys, all the named hq's....

Deathskulls is the type of kulture that people lose games too because someone had a single mega nob sitting on an objective they couldn't move.

It's always a lot less about the damage inflicted (though dakka loves the mathhammer) and more about playing the mission. Deathskulls turns your choppa into a swiss army choppa.

 greggles wrote:
Also don't forget that the main feather in the deathskulls cap is OBJ SEC infantry models. Kommandos, mega nobz, nobs, warbosses, big meks, weirdboys, meks, lootas, flashgitz, tankbustas, stormboyz, burna boyz, painboys, all the named hq's....

Deathskulls is the type of kulture that people lose games too because someone had a single mega nob sitting on an objective they couldn't move.

It's always a lot less about the damage inflicted (though dakka loves the mathhammer) and more about playing the mission. Deathskulls turns your choppa into a swiss army choppa.

Exactly, the character protection in the shooting phase coupled with objective secured is a nifty little combo that might trick quite a few opponents. Overall I'd say they're arguably the strongest kultur if you don't want to soup and even if you want to soup it's quite possible that they'll make up a big cornerstone in that list still.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm suprised about this hype towards Deathskulls and Freebooters, IMHO they're among the worst clan. Best ones are Evil Sunz + Bad Moons, by far. And I like Goffs as well, mostly because my armies are very assault oriented. Snakebites are a bit lackluster but 6+ FNP to the entire detachment could help maybe. Blood Axes are not my style of playing.

Freeboters have a nice combo but Bad Moons shooters look more reliable and Deathskulls only work by using the index. MSU style also gives you second turn most of the times, and going first with orks is probably the most important thing. Otherwise they're really the worst clan, along with Blood Axes.

I'm not really so "hyped" about freebootas, I'm mostly just looking at them because I have a lot of A) flash gits and B ) gretchin units, and at this point Freebootas is the only kultur that works with either. From my perspective, Bad Moonz is only really appealing when I'm looking at big super-combo moves, like a massive unit of tankbustas suicide-deepstriking with more dakka and double-shoot. I find those to be both boring, and overestimated in terms of power by the armchair-general forum crowd, because in game they're onetrick ponies that your opponents see coming and tend to be matchup dependent.

Deffskulls is a straight upgrade over snakebites, and again, if you're not playing in a zero fun "turn 2 tablehammer" tournament meta, deffskulls have a major point in their favor in that they're the best at running boyz in small squads with upgrades (say, 2x10 in a trukk with a rokkit and PK nob) because the rerolls and 6++ help them immensely. Also, the orks have tons of ways to get around MSU being high-drop. Transports, Tellyporta drops, vehicle squadrons (3x shokkjumps is 1 drop).

Not many people are talking about evil sunz or goffs because what they do is obvious.Deffskulls requires a bit more thought from army list construction and freebootas from a gameplay perspective.

I honestly feel like Deffskulls might be the best faction bonus in the game, in a vacuum. Even the -1 to be hit stuff is only better if you can stack it with another instance of the effect. It feels like GW just kept piling rules on it for some reason. It's 3 medium power effects in one. You could glue Snakebites and Blood Axes and Goffs together to be on about the same tier.

Holdin' objectives sounds way too taktikal. Playing Orks is about getting to your opponent's face and splitting it in two with a Choppa!

And no klan gets to your opponent's face faster than Evil Sunz!

 Weazel wrote:
Holdin' objectives sounds way too taktikal. Playing Orks is about getting to your opponent's face and splitting it in two with a Choppa!

And no klan gets to your opponent's face faster than Evil Sunz!

And no kulture spilts open faces quite like da goffs! I have honestly been blown away with how much additional damage the Goffs kulture does. A lot of the time it covers most of my misses in combat. On the biggest 'ardest hitting characters, I often go above my starting number of attacks! Also Skarboys are just ridiculous against MEQ. hitting/wounding on 3/3 is so so good. Skarboyz nobs in boyz units are sick with big choppsa too. str 8/-1/2. If nobz units could be skarboyz that would just be to good!!

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Holdin' objectives sounds way too taktikal. Playing Orks is about getting to your opponent's face and splitting it in two with a Choppa!

And no klan gets to your opponent's face faster than Evil Sunz!

And no kulture spilts open faces quite like da goffs! I have honestly been blown away with how much additional damage the Goffs kulture does. A lot of the time it covers most of my misses in combat. On the biggest 'ardest hitting characters, I often go above my starting number of attacks! Also Skarboys are just ridiculous against MEQ. hitting/wounding on 3/3 is so so good. Skarboyz nobs in boyz units are sick with big choppsa too. str 8/-1/2. If nobz units could be skarboyz that would just be to good!!

The nob in the skarboyz unit is still S5 though

PiñaColada wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Holdin' objectives sounds way too taktikal. Playing Orks is about getting to your opponent's face and splitting it in two with a Choppa!

And no klan gets to your opponent's face faster than Evil Sunz!

And no kulture spilts open faces quite like da goffs! I have honestly been blown away with how much additional damage the Goffs kulture does. A lot of the time it covers most of my misses in combat. On the biggest 'ardest hitting characters, I often go above my starting number of attacks! Also Skarboys are just ridiculous against MEQ. hitting/wounding on 3/3 is so so good. Skarboyz nobs in boyz units are sick with big choppsa too. str 8/-1/2. If nobz units could be skarboyz that would just be to good!!

The nob in the skarboyz unit is still S5 though

He doesnt get the +1 strength like the boyz do?? Dont have my codex in front of me to read the wording.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Holdin' objectives sounds way too taktikal. Playing Orks is about getting to your opponent's face and splitting it in two with a Choppa!

And no klan gets to your opponent's face faster than Evil Sunz!

And no kulture spilts open faces quite like da goffs! I have honestly been blown away with how much additional damage the Goffs kulture does. A lot of the time it covers most of my misses in combat. On the biggest 'ardest hitting characters, I often go above my starting number of attacks! Also Skarboys are just ridiculous against MEQ. hitting/wounding on 3/3 is so so good. Skarboyz nobs in boyz units are sick with big choppsa too. str 8/-1/2. If nobz units could be skarboyz that would just be to good!!

The nob in the skarboyz unit is still S5 though

He doesnt get the +1 strength like the boyz do?? Dont have my codex in front of me to read the wording.

I mean it should logically. But it only changes boyz strength to 5, it doesn't add 1 to the strength characteristic so the nob stays at 5 since he's not specifically mentioned

Theoretically, what do people make of a TRULY cheese gun list? Would it wreck some face? Can't imagine much that'd be happy to eat this amount of smasha gun shots and deathskull kannon shots. Might struggle against hordes, but still has a huge amount of shots with which to kill infantry.

Deathskulls brigade

2 x weirdboyz (one to warpath/jump slugga boyz, one to fists of gork the sunz warboss)
Big mek with SAG

3x mek with KMB

6x10 gretchin

3x koptas with KMB

3x 6 kannons (min crew)
3x 6 smasha guns (one unit of these can be put in evil sunz patrol for heavy support slot reasons)

Evil suns patrol

Warboss with killa klaw, warbike, brutal but kunnin

30 slugga boyz

Just did some maths - should put out 26 wounds on a 3++ knight without any command rerolls on either side.

technically speaking Bad Moonz are probably one of the worst kultures.

Rerolls of 1 when shooting doesnt help a good chunk of orks, either because they have no shooting in the first place or its just a slugga. They offer absolutely nothing for melee, which is weird since Meganobz are commonly shown off as Bad Moonz.

However i still love them both because its always been my fav colorscheme (and that wins on its own) and ESPECIALLY with KustomMegas doing D6 damage now its pretty easy to pop or severely damage big threats before the charge, and our charge is strong by default. If i face a numbers list then this is pretty moot.
So many rokkits and KMBs.....

Bad Moonz kultur is useful for one unit and one unit alone, and that is Tankbustas.

 greggles wrote:
Also don't forget that the main feather in the deathskulls cap is OBJ SEC infantry models. Kommandos, mega nobz, nobs, warbosses, big meks, weirdboys, meks, lootas, flashgitz, tankbustas, stormboyz, burna boyz, painboys, all the named hq's....

Deathskulls is the type of kulture that people lose games too because someone had a single mega nob sitting on an objective they couldn't move.

It's always a lot less about the damage inflicted (though dakka loves the mathhammer) and more about playing the mission. Deathskulls turns your choppa into a swiss army choppa.

Oh no, I forgot about that
Yeah, universal objective secured is a great ability. Deathskulls to me looks like the best all rounder choice, and as someone who prefers playing monofaction lists, that's quite appealing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Bad Moonz kultur is useful for one unit and one unit alone, and that is Tankbustas.

I don't know about that. The Wreckers strat seems pretty much made for tankbustas, and that's Deathskulls specific.
Why take Bad Moonz and make them slightly better against everything else, when you can take Deathskulls and use a stratagem to make them even more efficient against their primary target, as well as giving them a reroll and a defensive buff?
I think you can even reroll damage with the bombsquigs as well.

Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't know about that. The Wreckers strat seems pretty much made for tankbustas, and that's Deathskulls specific.
Why take Bad Moonz and make them slightly better against everything else, when you can take Deathskulls and use a stratagem to make them even more efficient against their primary target, as well as giving them a reroll and a defensive buff?
I think you can even reroll damage with the bombsquigs as well.

Deathskulls is better for small units, definitely, but one large unit of tankbustas using the Badmoon strat performs much better, which is what BCB is talking about. Shooting twice obviously doubles your damage, rerolling only increases it by 50% versus T8 targets.

DoomMouse wrote:Theoretically, what do people make of a TRULY cheese gun list? Would it wreck some face? Can't imagine much that'd be happy to eat this amount of smasha gun shots and deathskull kannon shots. Might struggle against hordes, but still has a huge amount of shots with which to kill infantry.

Deathskulls brigade

2 x weirdboyz (one to warpath/jump slugga boyz, one to fists of gork the sunz warboss)
Big mek with SAG

3x mek with KMB

6x10 gretchin

3x koptas with KMB

3x 6 kannons (min crew)
3x 6 smasha guns (one unit of these can be put in evil sunz patrol for heavy support slot reasons)

Evil suns patrol

Warboss with killa klaw, warbike, brutal but kunnin

30 slugga boyz

Just did some maths - should put out 26 wounds on a 3++ knight without any command rerolls on either side.

That's a lot of anti-tank. I could see issues with a horde-y list, since you won't have much of value to shoot at and they'll most likely focus down your one unit of boyz. Might be fun to pretend to be a guard gunline, though. Don't forget to yell "orderz" at the boyz while doing it.

I'd definitely throw those Smashas into the Evil Suns detachment and make it a Spearhead, though, might as well get the bonus CP (not like they get anything out of either, anyway).

Dr.Duck wrote:
Im farily certain big gunz will get erratad. So I would enjoy your deffskullz big gunz now.

They might, but I'm not sure they'll bother. How often have they gone back and faq'd index options after the initial codex release?

I'm more worried about them removing the indexes from matched play once the last few armies come out. At that point I guess they'll just be run as Smashas.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

Flash Gitz can ride in any transport regardless of Clan.