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Sluggaloo wrote:
Kinda laughable that I've waited 18 months for this codex and within two fething weeks of release every Imperial soup/aeldari player on dakka dakka is crying their eyes out calling for nerfs. What's wrong, new hotness can't be souped into your broth ?

Bring more screens, use your cp denying strats, use your still superior guns and to hell with your stupid claims that this Ork codex has changed the meta. Of course it'll shake up the meta, every bloody codex release changed the meta to a varying degree upon release.

Well said sir! Exalted for truth.

*gets told to change my entire army to handle imperial soup. Person who told me this doesn't want to change their entire army to deal with my Orks* yep makes sense!

Apparently soup addicted players only want to play against imperial kngihts and anything that can screw their "anti tank only" lists shouldn't even exist. The hate toward drukhari is another good example of that since those soup players have tons of S5-S6-S7 available which don't want to use because of knights, and then cry when they have to face lots of T5-T6 multiwounds models.

The ork codex is nice, but far from being overpowered. Very far from it.

Specific army aside, surely it's the job of any new Codex to shake up the meta, and not simply be part of it?

Otherwise, what's the point of metagaming?

Mind you, I've long scorned netlisting and metagaming as a bit of a fools errand unless you're also factoring in stuff that'll challenge the current meta. Staying that one step ahead, or at least trying to, is a better challenge for me. But just my opinion on things! Not gonna tell anyone they're doing it wrong.

I remember the editions I used to bring a group of marines with lascannons to take out anti armour and then a group of Assualt marines to take out enemy position and normal marines to deal with infintry. I geuss this is an overall problem with 40k... standard marines and "jack of all trades" armies themselves have become so useless because everyone just went towards one direction. So as soon as you bring something that can deal with that 1 list the entire tower crumbles. If people in tournaments actually had imagination and didn't just copy paste each others lists then you miht see some variety. In fact, this is even a proven statement! There are so many examples of people bringing a "radical" unexpected list and winning because nobody had it implanted in their brains on how to deal with it (instead of adapting your strategy they just followed what they were trained to do). Hell, Grey Knights won because of this in ine tournament! I've personally gone to tournaments (just to watch them) where players bring cloned lists and do the exact same thing every single game and almost have a mental breakdown if something happened they didn't expect.... Honestly, after viewing so many games I'm now a firm supporter of alternative activation for 40k.

I'm also a firm supporter of not 100% listening to tournament and competitive players when balancing a game. If someone doesn't want something to change then somethign comes in and they throw a fit it means that it's probably fine. If something old needs changing and they huggle round it and say it's fine then it probably needs changing. In a game like 40k you really need a good few months before any real unbiased data can come out either way so if most competitive people are saying something is OP please nerf then you know you're doing the right thing. This is honestly from my experience as a game designer myself... we implemented two weapons into our game and the online game community went up in armys about how one weapon was OP and way better than the other factions weapon and needed a nerf. The joke is they were the same weapon just re skinned. XD there was no difference the people just sucked at the game while the other competitive team were better trained and knew how to use it.

That's the drawback if you're literally just netlisting. You know the list is apparently good. And how to get the most out of it in specific situations. But you don't know your army all that well.

Again for sake of clarity. Peeps should be free to play however tickles their fancy. But just netlisting alone isn't going to make you champ. And you may have more fun taking a list you've worked on yourself.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That's the drawback if you're literally just netlisting. You know the list is apparently good. And how to get the most out of it in specific situations. But you don't know your army all that well.

Again for sake of clarity. Peeps should be free to play however tickles their fancy. But just netlisting alone isn't going to make you champ. And you may have more fun taking a list you've worked on yourself.

I preech religiously that you shouldn't have to change your army to win games in casual. It's your army with your own narrative. However, I'm also a realistic person who understands how competitive works. Competitive players do need to change their army and learn it inside and out. I knew of one guy in our club who woukd sell his army every few months to buy the latest hot competitive thing and would throw a fit like a child when it got nerfed or started to lose... but that's the price he paid to make sure he could win every casual game and store level tournaments. In the first week 8th came out he declared marine dreadnoughts to be OP and needed huge nerfs because an army of marine dreadnoughts wupped his ass.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Only illegal for those strictly following ETC and nobody has the balls to challenge them on their stance for Index or FW.

Otherwise these ARE core rules. ETC is a homebrew for losing core rules.

Not only ETC.

There's nobody else banning core materials. Unless you're talking about super specific shops, which really doesn't count.

Ah right. I must be imagining all the tournaments here that don't use ETC yet have no index. Yep just my imagination. The tournament I'm attending in 2.5 weeks for example does not exists. When I enter place I'm only person there and no tournament coming.

Yep yep. Makes sense. I'm just hallucinating tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Well no because that time stuff was invalidated in its droves. I had to change my whole army. Now, all these things people are upset about not being able to play, you actually can. Perfectly legally in any play style the index rules are perfectly valid. I have have had to make no changes at all to my army. So if I’m the type of customer that GW likes then good, because I’m the type that actually realises that nothing has changed and all your models are still usable. And looted vehicle rules are on their way and sound great. The “conversions” people are upset about not being able to do anymore were just head swaps or arm swaps. Not conversions. The wheels and things on the new buggies are interchangeable and I’m planning some fun conversions changing out crews and chassis on them to make some unique buggies. It’ll just require a bit more thought. That’s not a bad thing.

Bolded part false.

But this says you can use it in any play style. There are only three if tournaments don’t allow it then that’s nothing to do with GW. So not false at all.

That picture is indeed useful when I go to tournament that bans them.

Lol. Here's hint: What GW says is actually less important than what the people you play and tournaments that you attend say. THOSE are what matters. GW's words are irrelevant compared to those.

It's false.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:
I don't think the 1 point increase on Boyz is entirely down to the ability to take tankbusta bombs, but thinking about how many considered the bog standard boy to be great value when they were 6ppm, maybe GW thought it was undercosted slightly? With tankbusta bombs as a "freebie" and access to strategems and kultures maybe GW thought 7ppm was justified? I don't know, but I do know that tankbusta bombs on a small mob of deathskulls Boyz is very useful indeed.
It adds another fairly viable option to the much maligned trukk boy mob.

Strategems and kultures are free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

Uh ddd does not make boyz 7/6 better. Or since when shooting is only thing that matters? Not survivability, not h2h ability, not board control. None of that.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Only illegal for those strictly following ETC and nobody has the balls to challenge them on their stance for Index or FW.

Otherwise these ARE core rules. ETC is a homebrew for losing core rules.

Not only ETC.

There's nobody else banning core materials. Unless you're talking about super specific shops, which really doesn't count.

Ah right. I must be imagining all the tournaments here that don't use ETC yet have no index. Yep just my imagination. The tournament I'm attending in 2.5 weeks for example does not exists. When I enter place I'm only person there and no tournament coming.

Yep yep. Makes sense. I'm just hallucinating tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Well no because that time stuff was invalidated in its droves. I had to change my whole army. Now, all these things people are upset about not being able to play, you actually can. Perfectly legally in any play style the index rules are perfectly valid. I have have had to make no changes at all to my army. So if I’m the type of customer that GW likes then good, because I’m the type that actually realises that nothing has changed and all your models are still usable. And looted vehicle rules are on their way and sound great. The “conversions” people are upset about not being able to do anymore were just head swaps or arm swaps. Not conversions. The wheels and things on the new buggies are interchangeable and I’m planning some fun conversions changing out crews and chassis on them to make some unique buggies. It’ll just require a bit more thought. That’s not a bad thing.

Bolded part false.

But this says you can use it in any play style. There are only three if tournaments don’t allow it then that’s nothing to do with GW. So not false at all.

That picture is indeed useful when I go to tournament that bans them.

Lol. Here's hint: What GW says is actually less important than what the people you play and tournaments that you attend say. THOSE are what matters. GW's words are irrelevant compared to those.

It's false.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:
I don't think the 1 point increase on Boyz is entirely down to the ability to take tankbusta bombs, but thinking about how many considered the bog standard boy to be great value when they were 6ppm, maybe GW thought it was undercosted slightly? With tankbusta bombs as a "freebie" and access to strategems and kultures maybe GW thought 7ppm was justified? I don't know, but I do know that tankbusta bombs on a small mob of deathskulls Boyz is very useful indeed.
It adds another fairly viable option to the much maligned trukk boy mob.

Strategems and kultures are free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

Uh ddd does not make boyz 7/6 better. Or since when shooting is only thing that matters? Not survivability, not h2h ability, not board control. None of that.

To be fair boyz were a bit under costed in the index, I think that's why they raised the points. Not to compensate for cultures.

Gitdakka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

Uh ddd does not make boyz 7/6 better. Or since when shooting is only thing that matters? Not survivability, not h2h ability, not board control. None of that.

To be fair boyz were a bit under costed in the index, I think that's why they raised the points. Not to compensate for cultures.

Yep. A base troop unit that costed 180 points would routinely get 120 S4 WS3+ attacks.

120 attacks a fething shiteton of attacks. 80 S4 hits is a fething shiteton of hits. It really is. It still is at 210 points. Choppa boyz are worth 7. The same amount of fire warriors get 30 S5 hits (15 at range).

Now they have tons of ways to get into combat safely. Can you say 8 inch charge, rerolling either die or both, after teleporting?

Ork boyz are fine.

 lolman1c wrote:

I preech religiously that you shouldn't have to change your army to win games in casual. .

Perhaps it should be "I preech religiously that you shouldn't have to change your TAC army to win games in casual".
Even in older editions with the old chart, the codex would suggest you to select your units with a minimum of diversity in role.
But I overall agree.

 Blackie wrote:
Apparently soup addicted players only want to play against imperial kngihts and anything that can screw their "anti tank only" lists shouldn't even exist. The hate toward drukhari is another good example of that since those soup players have tons of S5-S6-S7 available which don't want to use because of knights, and then cry when they have to face lots of T5-T6 multiwounds models.

The ork codex is nice, but far from being overpowered. Very far from it.

Of course they don't want orks to be good, it's a bloody expensive bandwagon to jump on. It's not just adding the newest knight, or the loyal 32, or smashcaptains to their list. It's a horde army which they likely own 0 models of. Orks aint allowed to have fun.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

I preech religiously that you shouldn't have to change your army to win games in casual. .

Perhaps it should be "I preech religiously that you shouldn't have to change your TAC army to win games in casual".
Even in older editions with the old chart, the codex would suggest you to select your units with a minimum of diversity in role.
But I overall agree.

I do go into detail above about how my space marines used to play and now do play. Despite what some people might say here I don't just play Orks. I own a very classic style space marine army (Chaplain, terminator captain, 5 terminators, 15 normal squads with meltal, plasma or heavy bolter, razorback and dreadnought, etc...) and I really do see a huge difference in how they played. I also used to own a classic 80s Dark Angels army made of just terminators and assault marines (but I sold that for a good amount of money to buy more orks hehehe) and I did try them once in 8th index edition before I sold them. I think it was maybe 10 termintors and 10 assault marines, some hq's and a dreadnought and i was already at like 1k points... this was a squad that - although not devastating - in 7th or 6th edition got me through most of the game. And here they came down turn 1 and the necrons turned around and just blipped them off the table. My armies that (in a pure casual game) used to survive and hold out 4 turns were now starting turn 2 with half their army gone against the exact same lists. The most amazing thing about 8th edition is that my vehicles last until turn 2 wile in previous editions they tended to die turn 1.... However, the bulk of my troops now dies turn 1.

Part of me feels GW has done this on purpose to persuade people to play larger 2,000 point games and make them spend more money. but let me make it clear, I think 8th edition is a lot better (I mean aloooooooot better) than 7th edition (I seriously was considering quitting at that point... I used to spend every single second looking at my codex and like 12 sheets of printed off paper trying to figure out what the frick was going on and when 8th came I learnt the whole game in like an hour). However, when I play different games like X-wing I just get this completely different feeling to when i play 40k. When I sit down and play a causal X-wing 2.0 games I feel like I could just take anything and I have a good chance to win with skill. I have to sit there and really plan my next and really get a feeling for what my opponent might do. Without this I end up killing myself, flying off the table or just setting myself up so horribly I might as well call the game there. But, I always felt like I did this to myself and that it wasn't because my opponent brought an OP BS army. I actually felt like I was playing a game! Seriously though, if I didn't love the hobby side of 40k so much (painting collection, reading) I'd probably have never continued with it. It is, objectively, a bad game but an amazing hobby. And, we can complain all day about who is OP or who is Weak but at the end of the day until 40k becomes a real game then it doesn't matter how many points you take away or give, there will always be problems. Now, I have a feeling GW will eventually transform the game from IGYG into a more logistical activation system (maybe like Kill Team). In fact, I got the feeling with 8th edition they were going to do that but chickened out.

redboi wrote:

Bitharne wrote:

redboi wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

Also lost the ability to use strats on embarked units. Can no longer use stikkbombs or more dakka on trukkbustas. This faq hamstrings our ability to to kill tough targets quite badly.

We are only a few weeks into the codex and are already getting gutted

Huh?

I just don’t get it. You’re handed a perfect way to counter every issue Tankbustas had WHILE adding unprecedented access to variability smoothing (CPs ever used on re-rolls anyone?) and complain we’re getting gutted.

Care to explain? What exactly have we been "handed"? Tankbustas are now exactly the same they were in the index, save army traits. Except now we can't even use command rerolls on them
A tankbusta unit not in a trukk is nothing but a big 200pt+ bullseye that evaporates the first time something sneezes in it's general direction, and lacks the mobility to get into a meaningful position to do any damage even if you are crazy enough to have them hoof it.

This FAQ is a giant screw up. That single change is a massive nerf to the codex as a whole, and wasn't needed in the slightest.. Technically, RAW the Boarding Action stratagem has no effect when used on trukks and battlewagons. Again, we are less than a month into the codex and the nerfs are already rolling in. Just wait a couple more months for them to really pile on. This codex is going to be shambles by the time spring comes around.

Everyone is crying that Tankbustas pop out and die after killing something...I have 12-15 of them, and then some, that require removal of a whole unit to deal with. As people have said: you're unwilling to change your list and want tp keep to the “old ways”. People focus on the “cool” things. Fire twice stratagem; cool and all...too bad it’s counter to what makes the best Ork list.

Now, if you’re upset you can’t play you’re 20-years on bad moons you love cuz of them that’s one thing; but if we’re talking pure competitive lists then Orks, in my opinion, are likely top of the heap (as in the strongest list in the game, period) as Deffskullz. If you can’t see why you might need to pull away from the “we’ve always done it this way” mindset.

Bitharne wrote:

redboi wrote:

Bitharne wrote:

redboi wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
FAQ is out! We lost our ability to fight again straight away.... which means the enemy is always going to be able to attack back which means all those anti-knight tactics about fighting twice are now invalid.

Also lost the ability to use strats on embarked units. Can no longer use stikkbombs or more dakka on trukkbustas. This faq hamstrings our ability to to kill tough targets quite badly.

We are only a few weeks into the codex and are already getting gutted

Huh?

I just don’t get it. You’re handed a perfect way to counter every issue Tankbustas had WHILE adding unprecedented access to variability smoothing (CPs ever used on re-rolls anyone?) and complain we’re getting gutted.

Care to explain? What exactly have we been "handed"? Tankbustas are now exactly the same they were in the index, save army traits. Except now we can't even use command rerolls on them
A tankbusta unit not in a trukk is nothing but a big 200pt+ bullseye that evaporates the first time something sneezes in it's general direction, and lacks the mobility to get into a meaningful position to do any damage even if you are crazy enough to have them hoof it.

This FAQ is a giant screw up. That single change is a massive nerf to the codex as a whole, and wasn't needed in the slightest.. Technically, RAW the Boarding Action stratagem has no effect when used on trukks and battlewagons. Again, we are less than a month into the codex and the nerfs are already rolling in. Just wait a couple more months for them to really pile on. This codex is going to be shambles by the time spring comes around.

Everyone is crying that Tankbustas pop out and die after killing something...I have 12-15 of them, and then some, that require removal of a whole unit to deal with. As people have said: you're unwilling to change your list and want tp keep to the “old ways”. People focus on the “cool” things. Fire twice stratagem; cool and all...too bad it’s counter to what makes the best Ork list.

Now, if you’re upset you can’t play you’re 20-years on bad moons you love cuz of them that’s one thing; but if we’re talking pure competitive lists then Orks, in my opinion, are likely top of the heap (as in the strongest list in the game, period) as Deffskullz. If you can’t see why you might need to pull away from the “we’ve always done it this way” mindset.

Not sure what you're on about. We never even had stratagems before, so in losing them we are forced to go back to "the old ways". I very much enjoy making new and varied lists, and using unique strategies. That is why I'm miffed that this FAQ took away so many options. Having less options is never a good thing any way you spin it. And I'm even more afraid that it's the start of a trend to gut and neuter all the cool and unique things that make orks fun.

As much as I hate it I have to agree with you on the fact Deffskullz (and perhaps vehicle Evil Sunz) are the superior ones (which actually surprised a lot of people because nobody ever remembers deffskullz sadly). The 6++ saves you 100-200+ points in meks, rerolls means you can not only boost your army but also saves you a fortune in CP which can go on other more useful things... The strat isn't half bad, warlord trait makes them a hell of a sniper, and that relic means they can heal themselves (trike boss or biker hq's) or nearby vehicles! There is almost nothing I can say that's bad about them!!!

I look at snake bites on the other hand and 1. their relic looks awesome but is super short range. 2. their kulture is only half as effective as deffskullz. 3. their warlord trait is meh unless you run huge amounts of grots. 4. their strat is expensive as hell.

Honestly, if I was GW I'd make it where their kulture is 6+FNP and grots have fearless (or +1T). Then, I would make the warlord trait something like the warboss get's 4+ FNP or something.

Honestly the Snakebites Strategem isn't too expensive once you realize it affects the whole army. And of course the defensive trait is better vs AP0.

Otherwise yeah it's definitely weaker than Deffskulls for sure, who get THREE frickin bonuses instead of just one (and that one doesn't even stack with vehicles!).

 JimOnMars wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka makes shoota boyz 7/6 better. So the price being 7/6 more is just about right...free tankbusta bombs is just...free.

Choppas getting 3 attacks, or 4 with 20, were always worth more than 6.

Uh ddd does not make boyz 7/6 better. Or since when shooting is only thing that matters? Not survivability, not h2h ability, not board control. None of that.

To be fair boyz were a bit under costed in the index, I think that's why they raised the points. Not to compensate for cultures.

Yep. A base troop unit that costed 180 points would routinely get 120 S4 WS3+ attacks.

120 attacks a fething shiteton of attacks. 80 S4 hits is a fething shiteton of hits. It really is. It still is at 210 points. Choppa boyz are worth 7. The same amount of fire warriors get 30 S5 hits (15 at range).

Now they have tons of ways to get into combat safely. Can you say 8 inch charge, rerolling either die or both, after teleporting?

Ork boyz are fine.

Alright boyz, lets take another trip down bowling ball alley.

30 Boyz vs 30 Firewarriors. Turn 1 firewarriors get 30 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds and about 9 dead Orkz. Orkz are fearless and move and advance 9 inches. they are out of charge range. Tau are now in double tap fun range and fire 60 shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds and yay hte ork boyz which are super awesome and just as good as before are now dead to the last boy.

But hey, that is ok because we can now add in buffing characters and all sorts of facets to prove that ork boyz are better.....so long as we don't add in corresponding Tau buffs that is.....

Lets just go with overwatch, 30 Firewarriors get 60 shots for 10 hits and 7ish wounds. that is 6 dead Orkz just to overwatch on a similar number of models. Add in all the buffs that give them better overwatch and linked overwatch and really quickly that more than doubles, but for the same of argument lets say that it only doubles. so orkz lose 12 Boyz to overwatch and get into CC with somehow all 30 firewarriors. They only have 18 left so now they get 3 attacks each instead of 4 so now its 54 attacks, 36 hits and 24 wounds (T3 right?) So against that 4+ save that is only 12 wounds. So by using Da Jump or even the strat to deep strike turn 2 we are still pulling even with Tau firewarriors. And on top of all of that you have to remember that Tau firewarriors aren't even seen as the best unit in the codex. So our boyz which were competitive at least against firewarriors if you could get them into CC are now dead to the last boy by turn 2 to a similar number of firewarriors unless we deep strike in which case we draw even....which isn't good news because they can fall back and blast you off the table still.

No, boyz at 7ppm are not ok in the current game. Unless every other factions troops go up in prices this is nonsense.

SemperMortis wrote:
No, boyz at 7ppm are not ok in the current game. Unless every other factions troops go up in prices this is nonsense.

Which is rumoured to happen in C.A. 2018

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly the Snakebites Strategem isn't too expensive once you realize it affects the whole army. And of course the defensive trait is better vs AP0.

Otherwise yeah it's definitely weaker than Deffskulls for sure, who get THREE frickin bonuses instead of just one (and that one doesn't even stack with vehicles!).

The joke is if this codex came out last year then the snake bites would have been amazing. However, because all the other traits are so unique and good then the snakebite one looks bad (even though it's honestly not the worst at all... and stacks with the KFF). I did some tests and took 30 wounds from a punisher and saved like 18 of my guys from kff and 6+fnp. But yeah, i think at the very least it should have stacked with ramshackle or painboy should have been a 5+fnp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with 7pmm boyz is that I agree... other models are more effective, cheaper/same price and yet always get ignored. We have 1 good unit so everyone shone a light on it. However, it becomes the arguement then:

Are 7pts per boy too much or is everyone else too cheap?

Hormaguants are a great example... 5pts per model isn't half bad for what they can do... if you had 42 vs 30 (same points value) then it really depends on who fights first.... horm's fight first they kill enough boyz that moral would wipe them out, orks fight first they'd likely kill the unit outright... they have buff and bonuses either way and Horms have upgrades to help them in combat. So is the boy worth being 2pts more expensive or is the hormy 2pts too cheap?

7 ppm Boyz are fine. They are not as good as they were, but they were very, very good before. A slight nerf was not uncalled for.

pismakron wrote:
7 ppm Boyz are fine. They are not as good as they were, but they were very, very good before. A slight nerf was not uncalled for.

but they do have a point... when looking at 40k as a whole there are a lot of troops just as good as boyz that are almost half the price, a few points less or equal points. But because nobody took them on mass (because they had other good units in their codex) then they are ignored. I feel CA should make everyone go up 1pt at least and make marines go down a point or two.

pismakron wrote:
7 ppm Boyz are fine. They are not as good as they were, but they were very, very good before. A slight nerf was not uncalled for.

As someone who spammed boyz before I completely agree. Bear in mind with U.G.T. you can bring back a full mob of 30 too so.... yeah they are definately still a top troop choice.

 Sluggaloo wrote:

pismakron wrote:
7 ppm Boyz are fine. They are not as good as they were, but they were very, very good before. A slight nerf was not uncalled for.

As someone who spammed boyz before I completely agree. Bear in mind with U.G.T. you can bring back a full mob of 30 too so.... yeah they are definately still a top troop choice.

Seeing as our only other troop choice are 3 ppm speedbumps/objective campers they have to be. I also wish people (GW included) wouldn't focus so heavily on stratagems. I'm led to believe this is just part of 8th edition but I think it's rubbish. An army (and therefore individual units) should be good before strats otherwise you are relying on a gimmick that ends when you run out of CP.
Now what I got from the CA thread is that most likely other troops will also go up in points, in which case 7 ppm Boyz are fine. However stating an increase to 7 was/is fine just because they are strong when no one else payed that tax before for getting their codex infuriates me.

Yeah, I've always said that cp were supposed to be one off game changers, not crutches for your entire army. Gone are the fun days where your missile would do more damage because you painted it yellow.

I hated, with a passion, 7th edition formations but at least they brought fluffy armies to the table. At the start of 8th the most common list you'd see was robo toilet seat man leading an army of conscripts. XD lore wise half those soliders would gave heart attacks from seeing the Emperor's son!

Can I get like a summary?

Just wondering what the general thought is whether it's a good codex or like a GK codex

 fraser1191 wrote:
Can I get like a summary?

Just wondering what the general thought is whether it's a good codex or like a GK codex

It's nowhere near how bad the GK codex is, overall it's a solid upper-middle tier codex that can finally compete with other codex-level armies. The klan kulturs give a lot of flavour and structure as to how you build your detachments (shooty units prefer to be Bad Moons, Deffskulls for MSU, Evil Sunz for mech/tellyport heavy lists) and unlike CSM or Marines, there isn't one Kultur that completely stands above the rest, with only a couple straggling behind but not to the point of being game-throwing. Stratagems give Ork units a lot more mobility and options when it comes to getting stuck in with your opponent and as a result Orks are very CP hungry, often using 4-5 CP's before the game to either upgrade units like Boyz or Weirdboyz, or early/mid-game for combos with Lootas and various shooting stratagems.

Orks can be dangerous now with both shooting and melee, making it a legit combined arms army now, where its best to include at least some fire support even in a CC-inclined army, thanks to the buff to Mek Gunz like Traktor Kannons and Smasha Guns.

Relics are fairly solid as well, with the Killa Klaw being the star choice for the vast majority of lists.

The main duds come from lack of Kulturs for grot units (I understand this with regards to Mek Gunz, but Killa Kanz need to be thrown a bone) and a lot of options being taken away if you don't allow index. So without index options, I'd give it a solid 7-7.5/10. With index options, it becomes an 8.5/10.

 Grimskul wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Can I get like a summary?

Just wondering what the general thought is whether it's a good codex or like a GK codex

It's nowhere near how bad the GK codex is, overall it's a solid upper-middle tier codex that can finally compete with other codex-level armies. The klan kulturs give a lot of flavour and structure as to how you build your detachments (shooty units prefer to be Bad Moons, Deffskulls for MSU, Evil Sunz for mech/tellyport heavy lists) and unlike CSM or Marines, there isn't one Kultur that completely stands above the rest, with only a couple straggling behind but not to the point of being game-throwing. Stratagems give Ork units a lot more mobility and options when it comes to getting stuck in with your opponent and as a result Orks are very CP hungry, often using 4-5 CP's before the game to either upgrade units like Boyz or Weirdboyz, or early/mid-game for combos with Lootas and various shooting stratagems.

Orks can be dangerous now with both shooting and melee, making it a legit combined arms army now, where its best to include at least some fire support even in a CC-inclined army, thanks to the buff to Mek Gunz like Traktor Kannons and Smasha Guns.

Relics are fairly solid as well, with the Killa Klaw being the star choice for the vast majority of lists.

The main duds come from lack of Kulturs for grot units (I understand this with regards to Mek Gunz, but Killa Kanz need to be thrown a bone) and a lot of options being taken away if you don't allow index. So without index options, I'd give it a solid 7-7.5/10. With index options, it becomes an 8.5/10.

So like a solid 8?

That's good for ork players I suppose. Though the real question is was this a fluke or are they getting a handle on things?

I don't know, GK won a tournament recently. They must be OP top tier.

 lolman1c wrote:
I don't know, GK won a tournament recently. They must be OP top tier.

I already know someone will defend the codex because of that.

Also did they really? Curious as to the list.