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Isnt there 9 loyalist chapters?

Ultramarines
Imperial fists
Raven guard
Salamanders
Dark angels
Blood angels
Space wolves
Iron hands
White scars

Bharring wrote:
Minor correction - there are only 8 loyalist Founders, and one of those is Space Wolves. So you meant 7 Founders in the first book.

Ultramarines, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels

That's 8

Space Wolves.

And you added Dark Angels-they don’t belong there!

Wow, I fail.

For some reason I thought it was 8 Loyalists, 10 Traitor, not 9-and-9.

Do the marines have a "bolter drill" strategem?

Let them volley out bolter shots at double the rate for a command points and it might set them straight...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Space Wolves.

And you added Dark Angels-they don’t belong there!

...Well you're not wrong

Bharring wrote:
Minor correction - there are only 8 loyalist Founders, and one of those is Space Wolves. So you meant 7 Founders in the first book.

All of them could be in the same book.

Got me with the DA joke though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Seriously Black Templars really only lost vows.

And the ability to actually have good melee units, because if you propose a melee buff to Black Templars now everyone gets up in arms about how you can't buff Marine melee because it'd break the book. You have a much greater ability to make the army have unique strengths and weaknesses when you can play around with wargear selection and model statlines without having to worry about how Bobby G will break the proposed changes.

Literally nobody would complain about that

I wasn't talking in hypotheticals.

Then care to quote the people who claimed you can't give Marines good melee?

So, from what I remember, SOB and Gaurd use different bolt weapons than Astartes. Smaller and less powerful. I also don't imagine a commisar using a small rpg to execute someone within a few feet of himself or the people he is trying to command, or an officer using a rapid fire fragmentation projectile when he and his soldiers are relatively lightly armored. Why couldn't the proposed rule be astartes specific? "Astartes pattern bolters" could have the exploding 6s against non vehicles rule without influencing much in other bolt-using factions. Outside of heavy bolters being affected in the other imperial factions since those are generally frame/chassis supported systems.

EDIT: Actually, never mind. This won't lead to anyhing constructive anyway.

skysky wrote:

So, from what I remember, SOB and Gaurd use different bolt weapons than Astartes. Smaller and less powerful. I also don't imagine a commisar using a small rpg to execute someone within a few feet of himself or the people he is trying to command, or an officer using a rapid fire fragmentation projectile when he and his soldiers are relatively lightly armored. Why couldn't the proposed rule be astartes specific? "Astartes pattern bolters" could have the exploding 6s against non vehicles rule without influencing much in other bolt-using factions. Outside of heavy bolters being affected in the other imperial factions since those are generally frame/chassis supported systems.

From what I remember they do have different named rifles but probably similar caliber. The point is same name pretty sure, think it was outlined ages ago we could come up with a special ammo for just astartes, etc but why change a rifle that is apparent across multiple factions when it is survivability for cost that is the weakness of marines.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

skysky wrote:

So, from what I remember, SOB and Gaurd use different bolt weapons than Astartes. Smaller and less powerful. I also don't imagine a commisar using a small rpg to execute someone within a few feet of himself or the people he is trying to command, or an officer using a rapid fire fragmentation projectile when he and his soldiers are relatively lightly armored. Why couldn't the proposed rule be astartes specific? "Astartes pattern bolters" could have the exploding 6s against non vehicles rule without influencing much in other bolt-using factions. Outside of heavy bolters being affected in the other imperial factions since those are generally frame/chassis supported systems.

From what I remember they do have different named rifles but probably similar caliber. The point is same name pretty sure, think it was outlined ages ago we could come up with a special ammo for just astartes, etc but why change a rifle that is apparent across multiple factions when it is survivability for cost that is the weakness of marines.

Because their offense is actually the issue here. Why are we going to avoid the Bolter just because Sisters exist?

Also claiming the change is too hard because it's across multiple factions is just laughable. Marines are Marines.

How is the change laughable??? How many cross faction armies use the bolter type weapon stats atm? They relegated the same stats for ease, how hard will it be to reverse (a lot harder)

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
How is the change laughable??? How many cross faction armies use the bolter type weapon stats atm? They relegated the same stats for ease, how hard will it be to reverse (a lot harder)

Guard have little in the way for Bolt weaponry being used. So that leaves Sisters outside Marine variants.

It isn't that difficult to grasp.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
How is the change laughable??? How many cross faction armies use the bolter type weapon stats atm? They relegated the same stats for ease, how hard will it be to reverse (a lot harder)

Guard have little in the way for Bolt weaponry being used. So that leaves Sisters outside Marine variants.

It isn't that difficult to grasp.

K so just Some Imperial guard, All SM and sub factions, Most of Chaos, Most Inquisition, Most SoB, that's just if do a boltgun. I suggested an Emperor's benidiction round if talking just about affecting SM awhile ago if talking about that.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Do the marines have a "bolter drill" strategem?

Let them volley out bolter shots at double the rate for a command points and it might set them straight...

Only imperial fists know how to use bolters.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
How is the change laughable??? How many cross faction armies use the bolter type weapon stats atm? They relegated the same stats for ease, how hard will it be to reverse (a lot harder)

Guard have little in the way for Bolt weaponry being used. So that leaves Sisters outside Marine variants.

It isn't that difficult to grasp.

K so just Some Imperial guard, All SM and sub factions, Most of Chaos, Most Inquisition, Most SoB, that's just if do a boltgun. I suggested an Emperor's benidiction round if talking just about affecting SM awhile ago if talking about that.

Yeah so mostly just Marine variants and sisters. Nobody else takes Bolters en masse that this becomes an issue.

So it's not too many armies. Just:
SM
CSM
BA
DA
GK
SW
IG
SOB
Inq
Deathwatch
Custodes

It's only the majority of the books. That's not too much.

Most of those are just Marine variants.

Yeah, that's really just.

SM
IG (In tiny amounts)
SoB
Inq

Can custodes take bolters?

By that token, it's just everybody except:

-Space Elves
-Space Commies
-Space Bugs
-Space Hooligans

Bikes get hurricane bolters.

Could easily be replaced with “Vulcan Cannons”-same stats as now, but different name so as to separate them.

Bharring wrote:
So it's not too many armies. Just:
SM
CSM
BA
DA
GK
SW
IG
SOB
Inq
Deathwatch
Custodes

It's only the majority of the books. That's not too much.

No, it really isn't too much considering most of those are currently consider overcosted as-is.
The only unit I could see this change being "broken" on would be the Custodes bikes, but those could just get a points increase to fix that. Done

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
How is the change laughable??? How many cross faction armies use the bolter type weapon stats atm? They relegated the same stats for ease, how hard will it be to reverse (a lot harder)

Guard have little in the way for Bolt weaponry being used. So that leaves Sisters outside Marine variants.

It isn't that difficult to grasp.

What you’re saying is that an all metal army that until next year will have had had one codex in thirty years and an extremely sparse number of guard models are going to have their own special bolter variant.

There is no good reason at all to keep the guard version “normal” and make a better marine one.

Bharring wrote:
By that token, it's just everybody except:

-Space Elves
-Space Commies
-Space Bugs
-Space Hooligans

You forgot necrons and adeptus mechanicus.

You’re on the internet with the premise that you know things but you can’t count factions or legions and you used the term space commies, which isn’t even fluent in the setting. Get a clue, read a website, because vapid people who don’t read call them that, so it’s fine if you’re not speaking authoritatively.

No, I don’t respect that perspective.

(which makes for a huge majority of factions compared to marines and mortal humans.)

Bharring wrote:
By that token, it's just everybody except:

-Space Elves
-Space Commies
-Space Bugs
-Space Hooligans

Space Imperialists would be more accurate. Also that's ignoring

The Adeptus Mechanicus
Necrons
The fact that eldar come in 3 flavors which aren't even really comparable (even if they are souped so much XD)
Daemons?
Custodes (Where do they have bolters???)
Knights

Yes, the Eldar factions *are* very different. But if CSM and GK are considered just another flavor of Marines, then aren't Dark Eldar and CWE just another flavor of Eldar?

My point is that there are a *lot* of different Marine factions.

But yes, I did miss AdMech, Necrons, and Demons. Custodes have Hurricane Bolters (at least), and Knights are really hard to count as a "seperate army" when CSM, GK, Deathwatch, and Smurfs, among others, all get rolled into one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To elaborate, the response was a flippant counterexample of excessive reduction.

Spectral Ceramite wrote: it is survivability for cost that is the weakness of marines.

Plague marines and thousand sons are survivable marines and generally the problem people have with them is hey don’t do enough damage or give enough board control. I guess the answer is that PMs are over pointed? Maybe everything is fixable with 15 point loyalist plague marines but I think they still don’t do much damage.

Bs 3+ bolters and a bs3+ lascannon or melta doesn’t give a bloody nose to very much, even over three turns, and I think that’s a languid timeframe in a six turn game.

Bharring wrote:
Yes, the Eldar factions *are* very different. But if CSM and GK are considered just another flavor of Marines, then aren't Dark Eldar and CWE just another flavor of Eldar?

My point is that there are a *lot* of different Marine factions.

But yes, I did miss AdMech, Necrons, and Demons. Custodes have Hurricane Bolters (at least), and Knights are really hard to count as a "seperate army" when CSM, GK, Deathwatch, and Smurfs, among others, all get rolled into one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To elaborate, the response was a flippant counterexample of excessive reduction.

At this point, CSM are just SM. Now that marks are worth gak. They are just marines with less options. And all SM chapters other than GK and deathwatch should be rolled into one book, so eh.

Bharring wrote:
By that token, it's just everybody except:

-Space Elves
-Space Commies
-Space Bugs
-Space Hooligans

Pray tell how many weapons and stats the Space Elves share.

Truth is that there's too many Marine codices in the first place. In fact, if there weren't so many damned things added to Space Wolves, I would want them consolidated with the Angels into the primary codex. Grey Knights and Deathwatch can have their stuff go into an Inquisition codex with Sisters. There's too many books.