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I like that the orks are fungus. Makes things interesting.
If everything in space was mammal, reptile, insect or some other type of animal, then it would get old rather fast.

so what makes a machine spirit? is it a human brain or part thereof contained within the machine? and if thats the case, why have pilots/crewmen at all? surely its just a servitor with less human in its makeup?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Machine_spirit

The amount of space Space Marines (and other mutants in PA) take in the lore considering how little of them there are. The constant one upping of their abilities, I really don't like that they're now considered demigods of war or whatever, same goes for Custodes and Primarchs. So I also don't like the HH.

The prevalence of melee I find rather stupid.

Orks in general.

 Bobthehero wrote:

The prevalence of melee I find rather stupid.

40k is a fantasy setting that happens to be set in the far future. Or did the space knights, Orks, Elves and Dwarfs not give it away? Melee being prevalent is absolutely appropriate to the setting.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Now, I really hate to be that guy (as I have been asked this question numerous time myself in the past), but why on earth are you even into 40k then?

This is one of the, if not THE core tenet of the setting. If this doesn't appeal to you then there's not much else the setting has to offer.

Imperial Guard and Tau are my two favorite faction, plenty of good books about them to read. The fact that these two exist shows that melee isn't THE core, as its entirely possible for them to do without and still have those faction fitting the universe.

Amusing to bring up Imperial Guard when one of their most iconic characters is know for going toe-to-toe with orks with his big power fist and a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.

Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.

Even Tau have melee units. I really don't get the hate for melee. It makes much more sense in the setting of 40k.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Amusing to bring up Imperial Guard when one of their most iconic characters is know for going toe-to-toe with orks with his big power fist and a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.

Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.

A character I don't use, he doesn't fit in my gunline or airborne Scion. I wish GW would release a human special character with a rifle at some point, considering how everything is supposed to be better than humans in close combat, its stupid that most of their characters are supposed to be those melee guys.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.

A meme, and it actually shows the stupid of melee combat when you're cruising around in a tank.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.

Its precisely why they're cool, its a shame they're not human.

pm713 wrote:
Even Tau have melee units. I really don't get the hate for melee. It makes much more sense in the setting of 40k.

A dumb decision, they should have spent resources making sure the idiots with melee weapons don't reach their lines in the first place.

They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.

When some of your enemies just keep coming in endless waves it's worth having at least someone who can use a club. Besides it's not like ambushes aren't a thing.

pm713 wrote:
When some of your enemies just keep coming in endless waves it's worth having at least someone who can use a club. Besides it's not like ambushes aren't a thing.

"Learn to shorten your reach! If your foe can come close enough to negate your striking power, all strategem is lost and when all strategem is lost the battle is lost."- Commander Farsight.

Ambushes can be done with guns, too. And those endless waves would be a lot more dangerous if they could bring good firepower.

 Grimtuff wrote:
They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.

Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.

 Bobthehero wrote:


A dumb decision, they should have spent resources making sure the idiots with melee weapons don't reach their lines in the first place.

Except they have though? You know resources are limited, right? And that one of those resources are ammunition, which is subject to supply times and reloading?
The whole point behind Farsight is that he saw that having to engage in close combat is sometimes necessary, and that not training your soldiers in it might turn out badly.

I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.

Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place. Or maybe it implies that being a shut-in stunts growth and eventually leads to decay.

I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.

Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place.

I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.

The real answer is that 40k isn't a serious sci-fi franchise, it's fantasy in space. Complaining about chainswords is about as pointless as complaining about lightsabers, if you take the silliness away and require the setting to stand on its own against "real" sci-fi then it doesn't look good.

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.

Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.

You're on the 40k background forum bud. I was referring to them in that sense.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.

Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place.

I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.

The real answer is that 40k isn't a serious sci-fi franchise, it's fantasy in space. Complaining about chainswords is about as pointless as complaining about lightsabers, if you take the silliness away and require the setting to stand on its own against "real" sci-fi then it doesn't look good.

I know, it's just a silly thought experiment.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.

Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.

You're on the 40k background forum bud. I was referring to them in that sense.

Kroot are more into guerrilla warfare than front-line combat anyway.
I don't think the Tau use kroot like hoplites. Although that might be an idea for an auxiliary race.
That's something they need to focus more on - the auxiliary races. I mean, that's the whole idea about the Tau, isn't it? That they have all these races working for them? That needs to be developed upon.

There is no way that I would not have a melee weapon on me in REAL combat. every single soldier currently is issued a bayonet and most of the time carry a larger actual combat knife. there are times when slitting a sentries throat is necessary or you are out of ammo, you kinda cant do that with a gun. Hand to hand is a significant portion of any basic military initial training.

Yes, nobody really wants to get into melee but Murphy has a law for that.

but melee is an integral part of fantasy and like others have said wfb in spaaaaaaaacccccceeeeee(said in best mel Brooks voice).

Yes, we carry bayonets, but we don't go out and fight with a sword and shield, that would be stupid. Its something you can be prepared for, but its not your main way of attacking

Yeah, surely if all you want is ranged weapons, a historical/modern base game would be more suitable? I think without close combat weapons the universe would be a lot more limited. Plus the games wouldn't be very interesting I cant imagine.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ambushes can be done with guns, too. And those endless waves would be a lot more dangerous if they could bring good firepower.

But they don't and it doesn't really matter if the Tyranid swarm ambushes you with claws and talons or the Orks bring clubs or the Eldar bring swords. What are you going to do? Point out that guns would be better and wait for them to go and grab some?

I dislike pretty much all the Primaris fluff. It's a massive retcon and a very ham fisted way to shove new marine models into the setting. The setting gained nothing from their inclusion and as a marine player, we are already spoiled with marine content and a lot of other factions need love.

I said I didn't like the prevalence of melee, not that I want it to go away

I'm torn on the change to Orks into angry mushrooms. On the one hand, it's gone along with the 40k setting of everything getting more and more serious and po-faced, away from the British 80s/2000AD-esque origins.

On the other hand, it's really sad that the 3 books of Ork background in first/second edition, which were just so characterful (and gave people a 'fun', irreverent faction to play if they didn't want to collect boring Space Marines) and the whole 'ork kulture' thing has gone.

I haven't read anything about the Primaris, but from just picking up snippets I just know that I'm going to be perfectly happy ignoring their existence

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.

Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.

Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.

In the same way that every single piece of dangerous alien life inhabiting any planet is linked back to the Tyranids in some way. Which is restricting the imagination present in the universe somewhat.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I said I didn't like the prevalence of melee, not that I want it to go away

It's hardly prevalent.