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epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
The mental processing capacity, physical presence, reflexes etc etc are far beyond what any human can ever hope to achieve - no matter how much they train. And that is why they mop the floor with scions etc.

Since Space Marines don't mop the floor with Scions (or Sisters) as they have fought shoulder to shoulder with and against each other on several occasions in the fluff, it seems to me that you are overstating the abilities of Space Marines a bit. Space Marines are indeed much stronger than any human being can hope to achieve (unless they are mutants or psykers of course) and while they are extremely intelligent and fast, the most highly train humans can keep up with them in that domain as demonstrated numerous times in the fluff where heroic or highly trained humans are seen dodging their blows or even, in the case of a Canoness sword fighting a Grey Knight commander (and sometime they even win those duels). I like the idea of the best humans being able to at least present a challenge to Space Marines as it make human faction (especially elite human faction) pertinent to the setting instead of filler or worse and it seems GW describe this as possible, but feel free to disagree with that.

Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...

the most highly train humans can keep up with them in that domain as demonstrated numerous times in the fluff where heroic or highly trained humans are seen dodging their blows or even, in the case of a Canoness sword fighting a Grey Knight commander (and sometime they even win those duels).

And that is the kind of BS I hate about the lore - do to what I have stated above.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.

Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.

Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.

Sorry, i couldn't help myself.

Andersp90 wrote:
Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...

...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy. Most Space Marines were born to be hunter-gatherers or farmers. Despite this though, I do believe a fight between a Space Marine and a Sister or a Scion is strongly at the advantage of the Space Marine. I would put the Space Marine at one for three (maybe four) agaisnt the Scions, one for two (maybe three) against the Sister and one for 10 against an elite Guardsmen (like a Catashan or a Cadian vet). against a casual PDF like trooper, I would say one against 50, but at that scale the presence of anti-armor weapon starts to muddle the water. A lucky krak grenade or heavy bolter shot and the Space Marine is out of combat.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.

Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.

Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.

You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.

I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...

...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer

Are you joking?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.

Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.

Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.

You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.

I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.

I collect Guard because they're humans I absolutely hate that they're considered gakky. Its why I stick to Guard books, because they at least displays the Guard as competent. Screw that drowning the enemies in blood and I get the memes, I am just tired of being told how much my faction sucks and that the super cool awesome-o Space Marines can cut through hundreds of them.

Edit: Its also part of why I have a pure Scion list, elite humans that can make a mess of Marines and making a mockery of their armor is exactly the kind of thing I like.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.

Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.

Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.

Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.

You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.

I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.

I collect Guard because they're humans I absolutely hate that they're considered gakky. Its why I stick to Guard books, because they at least displays the Guard as competent. Screw that drowning the enemies in blood and I get the memes, I am just tired of being told how much my faction sucks and that the super cool awesome-o Space Marines can cut through hundreds of them.

Edit: Its also part of why I have a pure Scion list, elite humans that can make a mess of Marines and making a mockery of their armor is exactly the kind of thing I like.

Wow, why collect guard if you want them to be a match for marines. They'll always be gakky in the 40k universe. I mean without their tanks they are just like present day soldiers, I mean imagine a SM in power armour and how they would annihilate present day soldiers. Even if they were just a normal human in power armour they'd be unstoppable unless they were up against tanks. You should love guard for what they are, otherwise you'll always be disappointing and feel inferior. I mean guardsmen are actually far better in the lore than they should be, I mean they shouldn't really have any veterns at all with the armies they fight, I mean they have worse casualty rates than any war in real human history. Characters like Sly Marbo are insanely unrealistic, one of the reason guard are fun, like orks and space wolves they are comical. I collect DKK, love them, but thats because I'm aware of what they are, they are the baddest soldiers in the galaxy, because they can hold the line against Tyranid swarms or Ork WAAAGH!'s or CSM's. You should collect sisters of battle if you want humans to be somewhat a match for SM's.

Scions are good at killing marines in the game but lore wise they are still just guard with armour penetrating weapons.

I want them competent, not Marine equivalent. As my reasons for loving my army, leave that to me, don't tell me what I should and should not like about them. The fact that they're like modern soldier is a plus to me. You're free to think Guard shouldn't be able to live past a minute on the battlefield, I think otherwise and there's plenty of in-between for different Guard fans.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I want them competent, not Marine equivalent. As my reasons for loving my army, leave that to me.

They are competent, what makes you think they aren't, just because they can't take a SM or a wraithknight down with ease. The are the reason that the Imperium is still the Imperium. As for loving your army, I don't think you do, because you want them to be something they aren't. I also collect Orks, it would be like me wanting orks to be able to shoot worth a damn or be able to be skillful in CC, thats something that they can't do but it doesn't make them incompetent as an army, they have other strengths other than that and I wouldn't want them to shoot well or fight as gracefully as the Eldar.

So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.

No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.

Andersp90 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...

...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer

Are you joking?

No, absolutly not here is how I break it down.

Scions enter the schola progenium at the age of 6 to 12, they must be orphan sons and daughters of nobles, heroic officers, saints and will stay there at least 6 years, training in an absolutly inhumain military academy under the tutelage of former Scions known as the Drill Abbots. They are mindwiped and submitted to what amounts to torture and ridiculously hard military training. Once this is done the best fighters will be sent to the Tempestor Academy, where Scions will train for at least another three years under similar circomstances to finally become a fully minted Scion. They will then be deployed on various missions until they die or get so old that eventhe mild rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point they usually become Drill Abbots. That's a total of about 9 years of training before the first deployment.

Sisters pass through an identical infancy, but instead of going to the Tempestor Academy to go to one of the covent of hte Holy Order that recruited them in the first place to be trained for about four more years. Then, they will start to be deployed in various mission until they die or get so old that even the good rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point some become Drill Abbess, but most just change to a non combatant Order higher op position. That's a total of about 10 years before the first deployment.

Space Marines recruit boys age 10 to 13 from their Chapter's world, which is most often a low tech world with a low population. Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing. They get psycho indoctrinement to teach them the basics of High Gothic and get them used to technology. They also start the long process of implantation that last about 3 years during which several will die since they will reject the geneseed. After those three years, their training really start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after those three years become a proper battle brother. They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.

By those pure numbers derived from the Militarum Tempestus Codex, the Sister of Battle Codex and the Space Marine Codex (and some WD material) it seems to me that Scions and Sisters have a longer period of training and it's just as intense as that of Space Marines which are still very well trained let's face it. That longer training and this bigger, better pool of recruits would most likely produce more skilled and resourseful soldiers than Space Marines albeit without all the powers provided by their gene enhancements. Yet, those gene enhancements and excellent training does make a single Space Marine superior to a single Scion or Sister, but, sometime thanks to a better training and very good equipment, it's the later that comes up ahead.

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Andersp90 wrote:
Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...

...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer

Are you joking?

No, absolutly not here is how I break it down.

Scions enter the schola progenium at the age of 6 to 12, they must be orphan sons and daughters of nobles, heroic officers, saints and will stay there at least 6 years, training in an absolutly inhumain military academy under the tutelage of former Scions known as the Drill Abbots. They are mindwiped and submitted to what amounts to torture and ridiculously hard military training. Once this is done the best fighters will be sent to the Tempestor Academy, where Scions will train for at least another three years under similar circomstances to finally become a fully minted Scion. They will then be deployed on various missions until they die or get so old that eventhe mild rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point they usually become Drill Abbots. That's a total of about 9 years of training before the first deployment.

Sisters pass through an identical infancy, but instead of going to the Tempestor Academy to go to one of the covent of hte Holy Order that recruited them in the first place to be trained for about four more years. Then, they will start to be deployed in various mission until they die or get so old that even the good rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point some become Drill Abbess, but most just change to a non combatant Order higher op position. That's a total of about 10 years before the first deployment.

Space Marines recruit boys age 10 to 13 from their Chapter's world, which is most often a low tech world with a low population. Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing. They get psycho indoctrinement to teach them the basics of High Gothic and get them used to technology. They also start the long process of implantation that last about 3 years during which several will die since they will reject the geneseed. After those three years, their training really start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after those three years become a proper battle brother. They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.

By those pure numbers derived from the Militarum Tempestus Codex, the Sister of Battle Codex and the Space Marine Codex (and some WD material) it seems to me that Scions and Sisters have a longer period of training and it's just as intense as that of Space Marines which are still very well trained let's face it. That longer training and this bigger, better pool of recruits would most likely produce more skilled and resourseful soldiers than Space Marines albeit without all the powers provided by their gene enhancements.

That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?

Danny76 wrote:


Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).

Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.

“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?

What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.


Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff

Glad you liked the read! Yes, I generally presume that the science of the 41st millennium is so far advanced that all of this stuff is possible and presents no challenge to the magos biologus. If they had left it at "some really complicated 40K science is applied to space marine and BINGO, the bugger gets bigger, tougher and killier" I would have been perfectly happy to accept the answer.

It's only because they went to the length of naming specific organs and pathways that the illusion is broken for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly willing to suspend disbelief, but there are some fundamental truths that can't be ignored when they are broken regardless of setting. If somebody told you that the men and women of the 41st millennium were fundamentally different from today's humans we could even assume that today's physiology and medicine can't be applied to them, but alas from our knowledge of basic humans in 40K they really are no different from humans alive today. It also would have been easy to say: Space marines are a separate species of genetically engineered super-human that are only produced in a lab and don't share our anatomy and physiology. This would have been acceptable. Problem arises when you say; "All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine. I am willing to grant them the basic excuse of "well the technology used is so far ahead of our time it defies imagination. That's dubious but possible. They had to go out of the way and specify not only all the organs implanted but all the mechanisms of HOW these organs made the kids into super humans. This is where the whole thing falls apart.

They can either make it quasi-scientific or keep the process shrouded in mystery, but they cannot explicitly give you the steps and expect it makes sense "because the future!".

Writing this up did make me think of how this could be ret-conned to make some "sort of " scientific sense and this is what I came up with:

Space marine aspirants are implanted with a SINGLE organ- the Progenitor gland. This is an autonomous tissue that contains primarch DNA and has been bio-engineered to regulate both itself and the host's body systems. When implanted it is attached behind the sternum (in the place of the old thymus gland), where it wont't get in the way and will be protected. It is linked up to the nervous system and to the blood supply so that it can communicate through both hormonal and neurologic circuits. It contains secretory cells that start to produce all necessary proteins and molecules foreign to the body which will help with growth, and enact all the super-human physiologic adaptations necessary to make the marine resillient. It would have to also be able to integrate specific parts of it's DNA into the host so that new bodily materials like proteins/hormones/structural proteins can be made. (Viruses and bacteria can do this already; incorporating bits of their genetic material into our DNA so that we can make their structural proteins for them. (look up life cysle of HIV virus if curious))

No major surgery to introduce extra organs like lungs/kidneys/poisonous glands, just a robust implanted organ which works the purposely vague science of the 41st millennium. When the marine dies, apothecary sticks his tool into the marine's sternum and extracts the gland. There you have it, nice and simple and purposely vague.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.

No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.

I don't want my army to be considering good for nothing except for drowning the enemies in blood while the Marines do anything worth mentionning. This kind of things doesn't happen in Guard books, and this is what I like. And the TT does offer me that, where a full army of Guard doesn't die the second a Space Marines shows up.

So no I don't think I have the wrong vision of my armies, just one you don't share.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.

No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.

I don't want my army to be considering good for nothing except for drowning the enemies in blood while the Marines do anything worth mentionning. This kind of things doesn't happen in Guard books, and this is what I like. And the TT does offer me that, where a full army of Guard doesn't die the second a Space Marines shows up.

So no I don't think I have the wrong vision of my armies, just one you don't share.

They are good against eldar guardians, tau, ork boys etc. They are just not good at taking on SM's, why are SM's the benchmark that you set them on? Of course Imperial guard books are going to show them in a good light, but they still are no match for marines.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?

That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?

That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).

Sources please?

A big part of the "gakiness" of Guardsmen is that from the outset GW decided that it would overpower the other main factions relative to humans. It was the same in WHFB. We don't know much about the weaker aliens that the IG are out curb stomping because they aren't highlighted in the fluff or on the tabletop.

An Ork Boy is fairly "gakky" in tabletop terms despite being a hard as nails monstrosity if you could imagine one in "real life".

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?

That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).

Sources please?

Codex Space Marine 3rd eddition, there is a chart with the implant process.

What are yours for the average Space Marine being over a hundred years old? It's possible there is a conflict in the various product of GW (that wouldn't be the first time)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Even if they were just a normal human in power armour they'd be unstoppable unless they were up against tanks.

Yeah, no. Guard have heavy weapons and they know how to use them. Unless you're assuming that a guard platoon wouldn't have a nice assortment of heavy bolters, plasma and autocannons? Marines being better than guard is fine, but do we really need marines to be equal to hundreds of guard? 1 marine being equal to 5 or 10 guardsmen is more than adequate to show their elite value without being ridiculous.

Besides, if you go by the fluff, a single guardsman can kill a marine... with a lasgun. So, "unstoppable" is a stretch. I mean, would a Crisis Suit be unstoppable against a full platoon?

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?

That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).

Sources please?

Codex Space Marine 3rd eddition, there is a chart with the implant process.

What are yours for the average Space Marine being over a hundred years old? It's possible there is a conflict in the various product of GW (that wouldn't be the first time)

Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.

Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing.

"Recruits are chosen from the best warriors among humanity. Naturally this makes Death and Feral Worlds prized recruitment grounds, as such harsh and primal conditions produce the best warriors."

That is a central pillar in the SM fluff, and is futured in a ton of BL novellas...

This is from angels of darkness:

"Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"

For GKs its only one in a million that makes it.

After those three years, their training really

The merciless training begins the day they are accepted (like i have stated above) - did you think they sat on their hands for 3 years?

..start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after

those three years become a proper battle brother.

They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.

No.

They are not fully trained/battle-brothers before training first as a dev and then as an assault marine. After that they are allowed to join a "standard" tac squad.

It also means that the LEAST experienced battle-brother have at least 20-30 years of combat experience.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.

Yes, of course Space Marines are much better trained than the.. erm... "casual guardsmen", I was comparing them with Tempestus Scions (which aren't guardsmen) and Sisters. Scions and Sisters are, in my opinion, no longer humans. Not because they have gene enhancements or bionics or any special powers, but because their training and education transformed them into wrecks of human being, but fantastic killing machines. It's also important to note that being an elite soldiers of an august institutions of noble descent, Scions and Sisters have access to rejuvenat drugs that allows them to live and fight for centuries just like Space Marine. Compared to a guardsmen who is technically a trained soldier from the very best unit of his homeworld (more like US Ranger or a Brit Green Beret), they aren't much, but still not to be underestimated in range engagements. Against conscripts, cultists, PDFs or penal troopers, Space Marine are indeed god-like.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.

You claim to know about Guard and spout something like that...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
An average guardsman has no training

This myth needs to die.

In any case, during the long voyage between their homeworld and the regiment's destination, the newly inducted Guardsmen will receive intensive training that tempers the natural fighting skills of their many disparate cultures and forges them into soldiers worthy of the Astra Militarum. They are trained in the use of specialised weaponry and vehicles and receive proper indoctrination into the Imperial Cult.

I just pulled that from the wiki. And that only covers "newly inducted guardsmen", most regiments that are deployed have had some prior experience in battle. Another important distinction is that of the PDFs versus the guard proper. A PDF's discipline and training varies wildly and might be little more than a militia, but the Guard has standards for training.

Andersp90 wrote:
"Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"

A death match between hundreds of untrained, mostly poorly fed 10 to 13 years old boy isn't as good as taking well fed 6 years old training them for 6 years in combat with experiemented trainers including and then only selecting the very best out of them after a battery of deadly tests for further training. Also amongst those 50 some will simply die due to genetic incompatibility with the geneseed and these are totally random, you might lose your very best recruit to that. Plus you only get boys and no girls, that constrict your talent pool. That's a nice ritual way of recruiting for a knightly order of warrior, but it's far from being the most efficient. Assessing the full potential for war of a human before the end of puberty is also nearly impossible and yet all neophyte are selected before that for the process of transformation into Space Marne to work. Good thing they are well trained after that.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.

Yes, of course Space Marines are much better trained than the.. erm... "casual guardsmen", I was comparing them with Tempestus Scions (which aren't guardsmen) and Sisters. Scions and Sisters are, in my opinion, no longer humans. Not because they have gene enhancements or bionics or any special powers, but because their training and education transformed them into wrecks of human being, but fantastic killing machines. It's also important to note that being an elite soldiers of an august institutions of noble descent, Scions and Sisters have access to rejuvenat drugs that allows them to live and fight for centuries just like Space Marine. Compared to a guardsmen who is technically a trained soldier from the very best unit of his homeworld (more like US Ranger or a Brit Green Beret), they aren't much, but still not to be underestimated in range engagements. Against conscripts, cultists, PDFs or penal troopers, Space Marine are indeed god-like.

Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
An average guardsman has no training

This myth needs to die.

In any case, during the long voyage between their homeworld and the regiment's destination, the newly inducted Guardsmen will receive intensive training that tempers the natural fighting skills of their many disparate cultures and forges them into soldiers worthy of the Astra Militarum. They are trained in the use of specialised weaponry and vehicles and receive proper indoctrination into the Imperial Cult.

I just pulled that from the wiki. And that only covers "newly inducted guardsmen", most regiments that are deployed have had some prior experience in battle. Another important distinction is that of the PDFs versus the guard proper. A PDF's discipline and training varies wildly and might be little more than a militia, but the Guard has standards for training.

well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.

If you want to compare 1st Company Veteran, you need to compare them to Celestians with similar level of experience and age thanks to rejuvenat and bionics.

well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.

All guardsmen are from their local PDF and more than that they are usually from their very best regiments since providing poor guardsmen as tithe to the Imperial Guard is something that can get governors killed. Yes, some guards will be little more than vicious gangsters, pit fighters and militia, but other might be highly trained soldiers. Imperial Guards are very varied in term of quality, uniforms and doctrine. A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight, etc.