No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**Rismonite**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't Showing Off INFANTRY only too?

I knew I messed something up

Guess I'll apologize to him in a bit

EDIT

I was soo focused on using it on the Lootas when I looked down I realized I no 2nd target I stood up looked at the table and said "well I'll use it on the Dakkajet then, I don't know why I didn't think of that before." /sigh oh well

**tneva82**

Yep. Infantry only.

Next time da jump those lootas into position where they can actually see more than 1 unit ;-)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rismonite wrote:
I was soo focused on using it on the Lootas when I looked down I realized I no 2nd target I stood up looked at the table and said "well I'll use it on the Dakkajet then, I don't know why I didn't think of that before." /sigh oh well

BTW in that scenario had the dakkajet already shot? Strategem needs to be used after shooting. So no unit A, unit B, unit A show off.

**BaconCatBug**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't Showing Off INFANTRY only too?

Correct, the only real use for it is on Tankbustas or Lootas, no other INFANTRY units really put out enough shooting for it to be worth the cost.

Mistakes happen, just be sure to not do it again.

One good combo is to Da Jump some Lootas and then use MOAR DAKKA on them along with Showin' Off. That way they auto hit on 5's and 6's, and explode on 5's and 6's as well, shooting twice!

**Rismonite**

tneva82 wrote:
Yep. Infantry only.

Next time da jump those lootas into position where they can actually see more than 1 unit ;-)

I'm with you there I was totally consodering that turn 2

Can Moar Dakka give then 5+ after they jump? (Edit, thanks BCB)

Btw if they jump it counts as moving right?

Edit, as to your 2nd point, I had not used the dakkajet yet. I was instead deciding I should use showing off on the jet

Which i can't do

**tneva82**

More dakka can be indeed used for jumping. It's done at the start of movement phase so da jump is already done. Good at negating that -1 to hit for moving your heavy weapon lootas. And makes it preeeetty hard for enemy to avoid your lootas. Best he can do is position stuff somewhere where LOS requires you to put lootas outside grot screen shield at which point you might not want to sacrifice your lootas. Unless target is like magnus and you get 1st turn at which point loota bomb will average him dead.

**BaconCatBug**

I remember using Lootas pre-codex and was literally unable to hit the enemy Fire Prism due to having -3 to hit. More Dakka basically makes you immune to any negative to hit modifiers and lets you get extra shots.

**CthuluIsSpy**

greggles wrote:

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

You have to have declared them as a target of the initial charge. If you are planning on using get stuck in lads, basically declare everything within possible range as a target when you charge. Otherwise you can pile in, and get them into combat, (and they can swing against you) but you can't swing against them.

Yeah, the tyranids can do the same trick. I think even necrons can do it with their Novokh specific strat, but I never tried it.

**Greenson Tide**

What are the odds that GW will actually FAQ our index to make Warbosses on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, and Painboyz on Bikes actually have the Speed Freak keyword? Kind of sucks not being able to use the Red Sunz kulture of +2 move on them as well as the Billowing Exhaust Clouds and Drive-By Krumpin' stratagems.

I mean RAI bikes are Speed Freaks but without it in writing, it doesn't really mean anything.

**Coh Magnussen**

Seeing as they had the opportunity but didn't faq DDD onto the index units ,I'm guessing pretty low?

**tneva82**

Odds are somewhere between 0 and hell freezes.

**BaconCatBug**

Which is funny because they have errata'd index units before to include codex changes, but I guess Orks are just not worth doing. Gotta pump up the sales of Wartrikes amirite?

**Greenson Tide**

Gotta love GW's
"Hey! Come buy these new shiny Speak Freak models as well as our Speed Freak side game.

We REALLY want you playing a Speed Freak army and load it full of Bikers!.... What's that? Oh... You are wondering about all your Index characters who would definitely help out such an army... Yeaaaaahhhhh..... they didn't quite make it to the codex.

You really don't need the melee power of Warbosses on Bikes for this army...
And why would your Bikers need a Painboy to heal them?...
And sure the Speed Freak army is centered armound vehicles, but you really don't need a Mek to fix those vehicles like, right?...
And you really don't NEED a Kustom Force Field to ride alongside your vehicles...
And you don't NEED a non-Mega Armored Big Mek to ride in those transports for your vehicle army, I mean it is ALWAYS better to have the more expensive option that takes up two transport spots...

But SERIOUSLY, please PLEASE play Speed Freaks!!!"

**the_scotsman**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s

Welp, this got real emotional since the last time I checked the thread 3 pages ago, lol.

Here's what I mean by "Defensively Identical" on the dakkajet:

Dakkajet:
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 12W, 148pts
BDSW
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 8W, 100pts

"it has a completely different profile" I assume you mean the physical model, because the rules profile is preeeeetty much the same.

Now let's look at the offensive profile. For the sake of argument, let's assume your theory that every dakkajet is always degraded to 6+BS at all times. Any situation where the dakkajet is doing over 1.5x the damage of the BDSW, it is outperforming it for the cost. However, because you also seem to be comparing the performance outside of 8" to avoid having to admit the KBB is better, we will not give the BDSW its burna bombs. This includes Dakkadakkadakka but no stratagems or kulturs for simplicity's sake. We both run Evil Sunz anyway.

Vs Guardsmen:

Dakkajet 4.87
BDSW 2.86
1.602x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% better for cost. This ratio is identical versus Kabalites, Eldar Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, and Ork boyz owing to the 2nd AP being wasted from the BDSW along with the point of str from the dakkajet.

Vs Cultists:

Dakkajet 5.85
BDSW 2.987
1.96x firepower, dakkajet roughly 50% better for cost.

Vs Marine/Power Armor:

Dakkajet 2.34
BDSW 1.81
1.29x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% worse for cost

Vs plaguebearer (most common invuln based unit in competitive play)

dakkajet 2.07
BDSW 1.38
1.5x firepower, exactly the same for cost. Note that this ratio is identical for all T4 units with an invuln save. If you are T5 with an invuln (Grotesques, Wracks) or T3 with an invuln (horrors, other lesser daemons) the dakkajet goes up to its Cultist points ratio.

Essentially, the BDSW needs to have a target that is T4 or T7-8, with an armor save 2 or better than its invuln, to outperform a degraded dakkajet for the point cost. You also need to be operating between 9-24" to outperform the KBB. Undegraded, the dakkajet outperforms the BDSW in all situations. So, I happily accept its graduation to yellow tier - it's got a situation where you'd want it objectively compared to other options. Hooray!

Personally, because I'm taking both as a chaff clearing tool and distraction, I like the fact that the dakkajet often tanks firepower that could have gone into my other vehicles. It takes 5 BS3+ lascannons to degrade the thing and even THEN it outperforms the BDSW against anything that actually fits the definition of "chaff".

Also for me and my local tournament meta, the dakkajet checks one more major box with its shot profile: Dark Eldar vehicles and Grotesques. It is exactly optimal at S6 and AP-1 to cause wounds to DE skimmers, and they also have Fly, which allows it to use the solid value Long Uncontrolled Bursts strat to slap them around even more efficiently.

I run any shooting focused unit in my more competitive list as Freebootas. The first time I ran a freeboota dakkajet against a reasonably competitive dark eldar list, I cracked a venom with one of my 3 traktor kannons (55% chance of an auto-explode if you wound one? I'll take it!) then dropped LUB on my dakkajet and it one-shot a dissie ravager. And that's not even super above average performance - it averages 8 wounds if it's hitting on 2s. The BDSW doesn't have that kind of "best case" situation, it performs predictably below average and depends on opponents ignoring it to slowly grind its points back 15-20 points per turn.

**BaconCatBug**

It's more a case of "We don't want new players to have to convert models with parts they don't get in the box."

**Greenson Tide**

If it is a model issue, then either make a model or just make the top half of one of those character models and stick it in a bag and call it Warboss Biker Upgrade Kit where it just replaced the upper torso, head, and arms of a Biker Boy. They already make upgrade kits for other armies.

**reds8n**

If we could swing back towards a tactical discussion it'd be better.

Ta.

**crzylgs**

Delete.

**Sluggaloo**

the_scotsman wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s

Welp, this got real emotional since the last time I checked the thread 3 pages ago, lol.

Here's what I mean by "Defensively Identical" on the dakkajet:

Dakkajet:
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 12W, 148pts
BDSW
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 8W, 100pts

"it has a completely different profile" I assume you mean the physical model, because the rules profile is preeeeetty much the same.

Now let's look at the offensive profile. For the sake of argument, let's assume your theory that every dakkajet is always degraded to 6+BS at all times. Any situation where the dakkajet is doing over 1.5x the damage of the BDSW, it is outperforming it for the cost. However, because you also seem to be comparing the performance outside of 8" to avoid having to admit the KBB is better, we will not give the BDSW its burna bombs. This includes Dakkadakkadakka but no stratagems or kulturs for simplicity's sake. We both run Evil Sunz anyway.

Vs Guardsmen:

Dakkajet 4.87
BDSW 2.86
1.602x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% better for cost. This ratio is identical versus Kabalites, Eldar Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, and Ork boyz owing to the 2nd AP being wasted from the BDSW along with the point of str from the dakkajet.

Vs Cultists:

Dakkajet 5.85
BDSW 2.987
1.96x firepower, dakkajet roughly 50% better for cost.

Vs Marine/Power Armor:

Dakkajet 2.34
BDSW 1.81
1.29x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% worse for cost

Vs plaguebearer (most common invuln based unit in competitive play)

dakkajet 2.07
BDSW 1.38
1.5x firepower, exactly the same for cost. Note that this ratio is identical for all T4 units with an invuln save. If you are T5 with an invuln (Grotesques, Wracks) or T3 with an invuln (horrors, other lesser daemons) the dakkajet goes up to its Cultist points ratio.

Essentially, the BDSW needs to have a target that is T4 or T7-8, with an armor save 2 or better than its invuln, to outperform a degraded dakkajet for the point cost. You also need to be operating between 9-24" to outperform the KBB. Undegraded, the dakkajet outperforms the BDSW in all situations. So, I happily accept its graduation to yellow tier - it's got a situation where you'd want it objectively compared to other options. Hooray!

Personally, because I'm taking both as a chaff clearing tool and distraction, I like the fact that the dakkajet often tanks firepower that could have gone into my other vehicles. It takes 5 BS3+ lascannons to degrade the thing and even THEN it outperforms the BDSW against anything that actually fits the definition of "chaff".

Also for me and my local tournament meta, the dakkajet checks one more major box with its shot profile: Dark Eldar vehicles and Grotesques. It is exactly optimal at S6 and AP-1 to cause wounds to DE skimmers, and they also have Fly, which allows it to use the solid value Long Uncontrolled Bursts strat to slap them around even more efficiently.

I run any shooting focused unit in my more competitive list as Freebootas. The first time I ran a freeboota dakkajet against a reasonably competitive dark eldar list, I cracked a venom with one of my 3 traktor kannons (55% chance of an auto-explode if you wound one? I'll take it!) then dropped LUB on my dakkajet and it one-shot a dissie ravager. And that's not even super above average performance - it averages 8 wounds if it's hitting on 2s. The BDSW doesn't have that kind of "best case" situation, it performs predictably below average and depends on opponents ignoring it to slowly grind its points back 15-20 points per turn.

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.

As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

**CaptainBetts**

Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

**Kaiyanwang**

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's more a case of "We don't want new players to have to convert models with parts they don't get in the box."

"We don't want new players to have the impression this is an hobby that includes model building - the hobby is buying the models!"

**PiñaColada**

CaptainBetts wrote:
Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

If it indeed costs 3CP to unlock then I doubt we'll ever see it. For 1CP it might be worth the plunge t get access to the stratagems, which could be useful every now and then I suppose. But Orks are so CP-starved anyways that getting more stratagems to spend CP on isn't very attractive. Other factions, like IG or SM might get more mileage out of these new rules

**G00fySmiley**

the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

**the_scotsman**

Batrep for a competitive game I played this weekend against a pretty prominent local tournament player:

Enemy list:

Drukhari black heart Battalion

2x Archons, one with the Black Heart relic, the other running with a blaster pistol
6x Kabalite warriors in 5x double splinter venoms 1x dissie raider (to also hold the archons for drop efficiency)
3x haywire scourges
3x dissie ravagers
3x mandrakes
1x dissie razorwing jetfighter with extra SC

Aux Detachment
1x biker farseer with doom and executioner

My list:

Evil sunz batt

Index bike big mek with KFF
Index bike warboss with killa klaw

30x boyz with BC nob
10x Boyz with BC nob
10x gretchin

6x meganobz, 3x klaw 3x saw (just what I have for models, I know more sawz would be better)

Freeboota batt

Kaptin Badrukk with ammo runt
Weirdboy (warpheaded him for da jump+fists)

3x 10 gretchin

3x traktor kannons
9x flash gits with 1x ammo runt
6x smasha guns (I wanted this to be a reasonable TAC list so I didnt just throw in 8 trakktors)

dakkajet
Skrapjet
shokkjump dragsta
trukk for gitz+badrukk

Spoiler:

Overall impressions: Holy moly mek gunz do work against DE. Even the "suboptimal" smashas pretty much auto-wound those suckers because they're T5 and a lucky smasha can absolutely destroy even a Raider base vehicle in a single go....just nutty for a 36pt model. Just absolutely bonkers.The trakktors were flashy as hell and SUPER demoralizing with the auto-explodes dishing out massive chunks of mortals but I think i'd do the same if not better with just equal points of smasha guns. Dakkadakkadakka on BS4+ platforms is no joke.

It is my hunch, not a certainty but a hunch that Freebootas/Deathskullz will slowly replace Bad Moonz as the shooty ork detachment, despite the fun that is bad moonz lootas. The +1 to hit buff might as well be automatic now that your mek gunz give it out, because I would never go to a tournament with less than 10 of these buggers, and it affects your whole army. 25 lootas shooting twice is amaaaaaaaaaaaaazing, don't get me wrong, but it's a threat that the meta can shift to counter by bringing tons of lasguns or other anti-chaff weaponry designed to sweep aside your grot shield and get to those juicy T4 6+ lootas before you can pull it off. There's also more creative/outlandish threats that people can bring to the table to make your grot shields trickier to position - an IG vulture can scoot over to one side of the lootas blob to juke 50% or more of the potential grot shields, just as an example.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
CaptainBetts wrote:
Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

If it indeed costs 3CP to unlock then I doubt we'll ever see it. For 1CP it might be worth the plunge t get access to the stratagems, which could be useful every now and then I suppose. But Orks are so CP-starved anyways that getting more stratagems to spend CP on isn't very attractive. Other factions, like IG or SM might get more mileage out of these new rules

Okay, but, counterpoint, Hold On Boyz is HILARIOUS and possibly THE BEST THING EVER.

I like it. It's definitely not tournament level competitive, but it's fun as hell.

**Kap'n Krump**

So, I might be crazy for considering this, but I'm thinking about spamming as many deathskull meks with KMBs as I can.

I mean, a little mek with a KMB is 31 points with a 24" lascannon, who is a character who rerolls everything all the time. Keep stacking those little buggers, toss in a couple big meks and it seems you'll have a surprisingly dangerous, untargetable couple of gunz.

Sadly, someone pointed out to me the rule of 3 which killed my dreams a bit, but there's still spanners in burna mobs. Not as good, only 1 wound and 1 reroll per unit, but still a fun thought.

I mean, mek gunz are great, but pretty easily killed.

And in Apoc, I dream of 20 KMB deathskull little meks in a garg squiggoth........

**BaconCatBug**

G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

**the_scotsman**

BaconCatBug wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk
You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

Hold On Boyz specifically says you do not embark the unit on the transport. you literally just scoop the fuckin' thing and bring it with you.

**Rismonite**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, I might be crazy for considering this, but I'm thinking about spamming as many deathskull meks with KMBs as I can.

I mean, a little mek with a KMB is 31 points with a 24" lascannon, who is a character who rerolls everything all the time. Keep stacking those little buggers, toss in a couple big meks and it seems you'll have a surprisingly dangerous, untargetable couple of gunz.

Sadly, someone pointed out to me the rule of 3 which killed my dreams a bit, but there's still spanners in burna mobs. Not as good, only 1 wound and 1 reroll per unit, but still a fun thought.

I mean, mek gunz are great, but pretty easily killed.

And in Apoc, I dream of 20 KMB deathskull little meks in a garg squiggoth........

You may still be able to live this dream. I believe Deff Dreadz can take 4 KMBs each at a price comparable to TBs in trukk.

Take that and throw it out a Tellyporta

**G00fySmiley**

the_scotsman wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk
You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

Hold On Boyz specifically says you do not embark the unit on the transport. you literally just scoop the fuckin' thing and bring it with you.

yea, the strategem is what I am referring to as quoted from vigilus. literally scoop up a unit already on the baord after a combat, "hold on" to the transport and you count as beign on the transport and getting off. I am curious though to see if that turns out to be worth the 5 cp investment.

**Bigdoza**

Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.

4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.

115

**crzylgs**

Bigdoza wrote:
Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.

4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.

115

This was talked about a couple pages back. Think it was brain storming / speculation rather than having actually played it in a game though.

Seems like it'd be a brutal screen killer. But I'm not convinced the index/codex wargear mixing options will stay like this for very long.