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tneva82 wrote:

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

Which is why deathstar approach like 25 lootas works. It's our equilavent of lone castellan. That weakness doesn't matter when you have only 1 unit that wants to use strategem anyway.

Strategems drive off armies toward deathstar style but guess that's what GW prefers.

I believe it has immediately opened up variety in list building options. Now you want three battalions all the time so you can maximize your use of sweet Stratagems. You want Evil Sunz so you can offer dem poor Deff Dread gitz their first chance at CC in years, you want Bad Moonz so you can turn 25 Lootas into 50 Lootas for a turn or two, and then you probably want Deff Skullz because if you can afford a third threat in yoir list, Wreckers might be nice in a pinch.

Or you can Jump a Warboss footprint into the smallest of places and with a ton of CP assault, assault again, and if he dies in CC somewhere, assault once more.

I really think ES and Bad Moonz are bread/butter and gork/mork.

I think the only Brigaide we might see is a Freeboota brigaide, but I don't know how yet. Edot, I also think it is possible woth the KMB buffs to see a Deffskull Brigade rerolling all those D6 damage rolls

addnid wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

We are very lucky to have 5 klans with rules/strats/etc. which all have such interesting features. I also think snakebites with the CP strat may be of interest, even though it doesn't seem to have much appeal so far. Over time we will see what sticks but unlike other codexes, I am coming up with lists featuring so many different klans !

addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

 greggles wrote:
addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

There is a part of me that wants to run dreadz with four KMB as Deffskullz just to reroll the damage dice. They won't last long anyways I figure damn the self inflicted damage if it hits and wounds I want to turn Damage 1 and 2 into damage 4-6 hopefully

addnid wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

We are very lucky to have 5 klans with rules/strats/etc. which all have such interesting features. I also think snakebites with the CP strat may be of interest, even though it doesn't seem to have much appeal so far. Over time we will see what sticks but unlike other codexes, I am coming up with lists featuring so many different klans !

I'd also like to talk about Big Mek Dede's Dreadmob deffdredd Blasta squadron:
Deathskull Spearhead
HQ: Big mek in mega armour + KFF + KMB + oiler grot + Relic Tools
HS1 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw
HS2 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw
HS3 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw

More or less 400 points of fun, 10 KMB shots of which 4 can be rolled (+ to wound reroll + d6 dmg rerolls as per deathskulls klan rules) and a big mek protecting his klanking piles of shooty junk...

Won't win tourneys but hey, i'm trying this out saturday anyway with an evil sunz bonecrusha battalion and bad moon loota battalion

 greggles wrote:
addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

Deathskull deep striking is going to be pretty risky as it is. As it is you got in first game 33% chance thing and failed both. 2nd game was worse though.

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots? Getting even one is 50-50 proposition. 2 or more? Pretty small...So deathskull does basically that AND allows rolling 1 dice anyway if you get all 2+ AND gives you reroll to wound AND to damage AND 6++. You take bad moon if you roll like 15+ dice and/or plan to use showing off strategem.

ManTube wrote:

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Garg squig is still great and also very hard to find these days because FW no longer has a working mold for it. If you can get one for a good price id urge you to snatch it up because it may be a long time befoe you can find another one for a decent price.

we're ork players... find an appropriately sized dinosaur model and/or dinosaur toy, find a dinosaur skeleton model, cover it in glue, roll it around the ork bitz box and boom squiggoth. (obviously takes some hours of converting but still have seen some great squiggoth conversions, I will probably make one one day.)

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

25 lootas is so good it will become meta for orks. If orks become common AM can counter a bit. Lots of imperial players take 3 infantry squads and 2 CC for the 5 CP at 180 points. They need to add 99 points for 3 mortar HWS to counter orks. Cadians with rerolls to hit them would grots on a 2+. That will average 20 wounds a turn which would be particularly effective against multiple squads if each mortar HWS splits fire into multiple grot units until every one near the lootas takes a casualty. That's particularly good against MSU grots. 4×10 will take 4d3 per turn from runt herders vs 2D3 for 2*20. I'm seeing a lot of ork players go msu on the grots for the CP.

So far my mortars are doing as well as I thought they would. Orks have indirect fire weapons available but other stuff is better so hiding out of LOS seems to work well to keep them alive. If there is any specific counter to mortars it's probably worth discussing here. Against pure IG my best recommendation is the good old fashioned just overrun their entire line.

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

 greggles wrote:

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

I would still arque all the benefits you get from deathskull outweights that ONE wound ;-) Even if you roll 4 1's you get just 1 wound. I don't even worry about that in KMK's. I suffer mortal wound. Bohoo. I think that has really hurt me like once. Other times KMK's would have died anyway even if they hadn't cooked themselves for that wound

edit: Wait a sec rule messup. Different weapons so in case of dread that would be potential 4 MW's. Still too small chance to really factor in.

@greggles: For KMB dredds, Deathskulls (or freebooters but that requires a whole army build around so lets leave that option aside for now) is IMHO the only way to go.

To further @tneva82 's point I'd say you are gonna hit with only one of these KMBs, so gotta ensure the hit manages to wound and the do more than 2 dmg. With bad moons yes, you will be happy when you roll two 1s but what are the odds of that ?

Aside form this, 4 KMBs is a waste of Dredd potential, as keeping at least on dredd klaw means you lose one gak but gain (at the cost of 6 points) you get 3 CC attacks, strengh 12 ap-3 dmg 3 hitting on 3s.

I'll give you my feedback on Big Mek Dede's Dreadmob deffdredd Blasta squadron (and post the whole list if it proves to be a competitively interesting enough concept, if not I won't bother)

 greggles wrote:

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

My thoughts. Last sunday, I've had three overcharged plasma guns rolling four ones, killing all of them... after re-rolling five ones the first time around.

However, I agree with tneva. Re-rolling that damage d6 is way better than preventing those wounds.

Aye, I play deathskulls fella. Was just injecting some humor into the discussion. I did have a single lone mek hit twice with one kmb shot. Love it when that happens. I tried all the klans out, deathskulls always for me. Having access to that 6++ makes opponents so salty.

"That's 8 dead boyz"
They have an invuln now
"Oh, that's right"
(Makes 3 saves).
Just 5 dead boys.
"......"

I'll give the triple KMB deff dreads a look. Thanks fellas for all the tips!

If I would go with confirmation bias I would swear off that 6++. Never seems to work

"Okay let's try 20 dice. Not one 6? AARGH!".

As it's rarely big help the big swings don't really register that well. Rolling often lots of dices with no effect starts to stick to your mind better though.

Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Playes against AM, charged and piled in as much I can to block in combat everyone without overwatch, 5 nobz choppa executed every unit they touched, tankbusta dakked tanks, easy

 greggles wrote:
Aye, I play deathskulls fella. Was just injecting some humor into the discussion. I did have a single lone mek hit twice with one kmb shot. Love it when that happens. I tried all the klans out, deathskulls always for me. Having access to that 6++ makes opponents so salty.

"That's 8 dead boyz"
They have an invuln now
"Oh, that's right"
(Makes 3 saves).
Just 5 dead boys.
"......"

I'll give the triple KMB deff dreads a look. Thanks fellas for all the tips!

Boy you are a lot luckier than me with those saves. I rarely make those, must be because they are painted ochre and not lucky blue.
For me deathskulls and dakkax3 so far mostly payed off in overwatch surprisingly. In just 3 games I think I've had rockits hit and wound in overwatch at least 7 times, often in characters too.

Blue for the lucky dice rolls, red for the cheating on move or charge distances (cause red goes faster). So much to doo with orks

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Any reason to run it as anything other then Deathskullz or Evil Sunz? I'm thinking putting a mek with redder armor on a Mek for more MW potential

Okay, So I was thinking of something ever since the leaked vigilus pages were revealed. what if we ran a spearhead of bonecrushas. and outside that we had a battalion with 2 30 man mobs. and 1 grots. one unit gets da jumped. the other teleport to the bonecrusha. this would allow us to get an extra unit closer to the enemy. In addition if that spearhead is evil sunz then the bonecrusha could advance and have +2 inches before the boyz mob got moved up. plus this boyz mob can be wholly within 3" of the bonecrusha. but this would allow an additional 3" in front of the bonecrusha.

only thing i can think is that it only applies to BW and not bonecrushas

vindicare0412 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Any reason to run it as anything other then Deathskullz or Evil Sunz? I'm thinking putting a mek with redder armor on a Mek for more MW potential

Technically, it shouldnt be anything other than Evil Sunz if youre that picky about minmaxing. Mine is Bad Moonz just because my whole army is, it still has a lot of dakka so it works out and being in melee doesnt negate its shooting. This thing wants to actually charge, its melee is pretty mean dont get me wrong but its primarily brutal if it makes the charge because of those tusks doing mortal wounds to every unit it just charged, as opposed to the new buggies' rams doing it to 1 unit, and doing it more reliably/more wounds in general. I had it kill characters in the charge alone lol.
Biggest slap in the face is having someone charge it first and still be alive when its your turn.

Freebootas would be the other kulture id say is great for it, since its an AMAZING Flash Gitz transport to begin with (did it precodex several times). Its capable of greatly benefiting both the shooty and choppy half of freeboota. Even when i swap a supalobba for a killkannon to shave like ~35? points, its still firing 3D6 high strength/damage guns and 20 bigshoota shots, while also swinging those tusks in melee which is even deadlier than the guns lol

Note: Squigs/GargSquig dont have opentopped but the Hawdah has the same effect with the added "can shoot while in melee, just not at units within 1" bit tacked on. So Freeboota trait would share to the occupants.

Wrote up the following list and was wondering if it looks competitive. Too many grots? Not enough dakka? Not enough boys? You be the call.



Bad moons battalion:

2x big mek/w big choppa and KFF
Weird boy/w Da Krunch

3x 13 gretchin

Painboy

Lootas x15
Lootas x10

Evil Suns Battalion

Warboss/w combi skorcha, relic claw, Speed freek
Warboss/w combi skorcha, big choppa
Weirdboy/w warpath

Boyz x29/w nob-Big choppa, combi skorcha
Boyz x9/w nob-big choppa, combi skorcha
gretching x13

Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs

Evil Sunz Vanguard

Weirdboy-Da jump

3x Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs







So in total:


2 warboss
2 big mek
3 weirdboyz
1 painboy

40boyz

52 gretchin

60 kommandos

25 lootas

here is my opinion:

- 4 units of kommandos break the rule of 3

- All these kombi skorchas are a lot of points in weapons that generally aren't great.

- You'll most likely mob up the lootas turn 1, so I don't really see the reason for 40 boyz. Either go 30 to jump turn 1, or 60-70 to jump turn 1 and 2.

- I'm not a fan of painboy, especially in the loota detachment since you won't get the FNP when using grot shields. It also applies to the KFF, as you don't get a save before passing the wound.

- Aiming for 3 batallions would give you 4 extra cp, and you already have 6+ hq and 12 extra grots to fill it. So it would only cost 54 points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Wrote up the following list and was wondering if it looks competitive. Too many grots? Not enough dakka? Not enough boys? You be the call.



Bad moons battalion:

2x big mek/w big choppa and KFF
Weird boy/w Da Krunch

3x 13 gretchin

Painboy

Lootas x15
Lootas x10

Evil Suns Battalion

Warboss/w combi skorcha, relic claw, Speed freek
Warboss/w combi skorcha, big choppa
Weirdboy/w warpath

Boyz x29/w nob-Big choppa, combi skorcha
Boyz x9/w nob-big choppa, combi skorcha
gretching x13

Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs

Evil Sunz Vanguard

Weirdboy-Da jump

3x Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs







So in total:


2 warboss
2 big mek
3 weirdboyz
1 painboy

40boyz

52 gretchin

60 kommandos

25 lootas

I think you have a few loose ends in here you could trim and fit in a bit more usefulness.

1) the extra unit of 12 kommandos in the battalion over the rule of 3

2) the footy warboss who just waits for the turn 2 da jump. I don't think he's necessary. he's not unlocking a detachment, what's he there for?

3) the second KFF big mek, I don't know if you need two. He's going to stand near the boyz turn 1, then shuffle over to the lootas turn 2 after they grot shield everything coming at them turn 1. If you really need to cover everything T1, expand the bubble to 18 with the stratagem.

Take those points and throw in something to tellyport with your evil sunz. Maybe some Manz to crack a hard target if the lootas can't wound it.

It seems a bit HQ heavy. I think you could afford to cut a couple of them for more toys/boyz, especially the ones currently in the Bad Moon detachment. KFFs (and the Painboy) don't work with grot shield and it looks like your plan is to jump/ds everything else forward very quickly, which could leave your meks without anything to protect. Da Krunch is a power that I wouldn't rely on, but having that third power available for Fists (to go on a warboss) could be quite useful.

On that note, why aren't the warbosses on bikes? Not much of a reason to walk them, now, and you aren't bringing any transports for them to ride in.

And that's a lot of kommandos. I've never tried running anything close to that many, so you'll have to let us know how things go with them as a boyz replacement. Without much in the way of shooting, though, you're going to run into a trouble against screens, which could give your sneaky gits issues.

I completely forgot about commandos and the rule of 3 lmao. I don't usually play orcs so that was my fault.

I think I just took the mek because I needed the HQ but I could drop the KFF and just make him cheaper I suppose.

You only need 2 HQ per Battalion. You could drop a Warboss and the Mek and still have a legal list (after you fix the Kommandos). Spend those points on some Smashas that your remaining Mek can fix up.

Quick correction for the OP. Dead Sneaky can't be used on Gretchin. Stratagems need to specifically mention Gretchin to be used on them, and Dead Sneaky does not.

Go with triple battallion. Two of them being bad moons in order to get 6x10 gretchins that can shield the lootas. IMHO to protect those 25 lootas you need at least 60 gretchins and tons of CPs to dump on their shooting.

3x12 evil sunz kommanos are definitely enough, you don't need another unit. 1-2 big mobs of boyz will always be useful, after all the weirdboy that can cast da jump should have a couple of targets that are in the need to be teleported: lootas turn 1, boyz turn 2. With the kunning but brutal trait if you go first you can also re-deploy lootas in order to avoid to jump them. A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

 oomiestompa wrote:
Quick correction for the OP. Dead Sneaky can't be used on Gretchin. Stratagems need to specifically mention Gretchin to be used on them, and Dead Sneaky does not.

Eh, you are right. Makes the meh stratagem even more meh. I wonder what they were thinking when making that.