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I've been using big mobs of Lootaz for 2 editions already... Used to love putting Lootaz behind an Aegis Defense Line and Go to Ground for 2+ save Orkz that hit on 6s but who cares!

Now that they are the new broken meta buster I feel kinda.... cheesy.

5th edition - lootaz are great
6th edition - lootaz are meh
7th edition - lootaz are trash
8th edition - lootaz are great

So the cycle begins anew!

Well great as Bad Moons. I run mine as Death Skulls and if I didn't love them so much I would probably get better results swapping them out for something else.

Lootas were used in 6th simply because we never used the Elite slot anyway and they were cheap for what they did.

Lootas in 7th were trash because they went up a little in points AND went to Heavy, which was one of our most contested slots, and there was no way to get extra slots back then. Additional slots were locked behind specific formations (which ours were a freaking list to begin with) or a 2001+ point game gave you double-foc.

Lootas didnt change in 8th slot/costwise but got some snazzy rules that make up for it so theyre good again.

 Blackie wrote:
A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

When does initiative seizing happen relative to kunnin' but brutal activation? I would have thought you could use the trait after the seize attempt but maybe I didn't read close enough.

So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Just deploy far back / Out of LoS. Lootas have 48" range, and can move/get jumped before shooting thanks to more dakka.

If you don't get initiative, you can use the Prepared Positions Stratagem to improve survivability, assuming you didn't put them in cover to begin with. Or bring in a Warlord who can move them out of LoS with Kunnin' but Brutal.

I'll agree that the Loota Bomb loses a lot of potential if you don't go first, but that's why you have other threats in your Army. A BW with some Tankbustas. Some Smashaz. Etc. If the only threat in your army are your Lootas, you're doing it wrong.

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

the_scotsman wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

With a CP, getting only 1 shot from lootas is about 11%. And you still do something if you fail, even if it isn't as much, and you are in a safe position.

An Evil Sun unit tellyported or jumped fails the charge 28% of the time, and does nothing if it fails, except getting obliterated at short range. Yet I see people all around saying it is " reliable", while lootas for some reason are random.

As for tournament results, it is indeed too early to know for sure what the meta will be. But some result is more information than no result.

the_scotsman wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

I calls it as I sees it. Just like how in the games I play T7 or 8 is less reliable to wound with the smasha gun than the traktor kannon even though mathhammer says otherwise. I also seem to fail my tellyporta charges pretty reliably. blame it on cold dice sure. But mathhammer should always err on the conservative side rather than average.

Man. The scotsman seems kinda... salty.

I don't think anyone is saying that Lootas can't be beat. There are plenty of ways for opponents to deal with them. If you got a grudge against them... I'm sorry? They're a really solid unit with a lot of synergy with certain Kulturz and Strats. And, as I said above, if your entire victory hinges on the Survival of 25 Lootaz, you probably need to rebuild your list.

thats why i tend to do two-pronged lists. Two things that are typically slightly weaker than the fullon deathball style of play where EVERYTHING except maybe 300pts in your list is dedicated to this tight ball of stuff/single big units, but dealing with both of my tactics usually isnt possible.

Used to be easy to do that, couple MANz missiles was all it took to draw anti tank stuff off your wagons. Not as easy to do anymore.

Running the 25 loota strat is about a quarter of a 2k list. Still have plenty of points for a side tactic, like wagon rush or walker spam.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
thats why i tend to do two-pronged lists. Two things that are typically slightly weaker than the fullon deathball style of play where EVERYTHING except maybe 300pts in your list is dedicated to this tight ball of stuff/single big units, but dealing with both of my tactics usually isnt possible.

Used to be easy to do that, couple MANz missiles was all it took to draw anti tank stuff off your wagons. Not as easy to do anymore.

Running the 25 loota strat is about a quarter of a 2k list. Still have plenty of points for a side tactic, like wagon rush or walker spam.

I think having those other threats are important. I was mainly thinking of the list that won that tournament not too long ago. I think boyz were his main other threat. which is why I thought it weird the lootas survived so long.

@the_scottsman
The lists that were at Renegade Open are free to look a using BCP, so we can just know what happened.

There were 74 players 3 of them played orks (unless I missed some). The player that won the event played an Evil Sunz Horde, with 25 Bad Moon Lootaz. The next ork player placed 9th with roughly the same list. The third ork player placed 49th with 30 warbikerz and 12 traktor kannons.

We obviously don't have enough data but what we do have points to Lootaz being good. Lootaz have so much potential damage that they are impossible to ignore. They are easy to hide and protect with the combination of more Dakka (so you can hit on fives even when you move) and Grot shields. The only downside I see is that it eats up 600 points of your army and like 1 million command points.

Is there another large tournament that happened recently in which the new ork book was allowed?


edit: I found a fourth ork player who placed 58th with no Lootaz.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I've been using big mobs of Lootaz for 2 editions already... Used to love putting Lootaz behind an Aegis Defense Line and Go to Ground for 2+ save Orkz that hit on 6s but who cares!

Now that they are the new broken meta buster I feel kinda.... cheesy.

Not broken meta buster. Aeldar soup is currently doing good and they have perfect way to deal with them. Negate grot screen, wipe off lootas, you have then lost your loota bomb. They also have lots of high speed long range shooting so hiding out of LOS is trickier vs them than many others.

If aeldar soup wouldn't be so prelavent you might have point but they are out there in force so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coh Magnussen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

When does initiative seizing happen relative to kunnin' but brutal activation? I would have thought you could use the trait after the seize attempt but maybe I didn't read close enough.

You use it after you know who goes first so after seize. That's why I love that trait so much. I can modify my deployment with lootas(and/or tank bustas) depending on do I go first or 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

That's why you put them out of LOS. Then da jump out. Especially handy with kunning but brutal when you can avoid need to use da jump if you go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
I calls it as I sees it. Just like how in the games I play T7 or 8 is less reliable to wound with the smasha gun than the traktor kannon even though mathhammer says otherwise. I also seem to fail my tellyporta charges pretty reliably. blame it on cold dice sure. But mathhammer should always err on the conservative side rather than average.

That's called selective memory.

Yeah, I was mostly joking I just love the level of knee-jerk from the "competitive 40k blog-o-sphere" whenever some new thing wins a tournament. Especially because I know a lot of the prominent guys from the Boston area, and their response to anything new is usually "sweet, I am going to click-bait the BEJEEZUS out of this."

The custode bike meta was I think my favorite to date. The reaction of every hardcore tournament player I know was just "holy gak I just painted 800 points of models I can win tournaments with IN TWENTY MINUTES! They cost sixty dollars!

I swear those guys had double the shelf life and popularity in the meta than they would have had otherwise because they were so friggin easy to buy and field. One kit! You spray them gold, you hit them with agrax and they're done!

Every person who has been in the competitive 40k scene with orks for any length of time has somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 lootas that have been gathering dust since the start of 7th.You bet your butt everyone is excited to be busting those out, this is going to be like when Venomspam became a thing again and the day after the drukhari codex came out every tournament player had 17 commission painted venoms with 5-man kabalite squads, which were wych models with unpainted splinter rifle arms glued onto them, like "oh, these?"

Had a 2k game vs mephrit necrons today. His list was as follows:

Overlord with war scythe immortal pride and veil of darkness
Cryptek with staff of light and chronomatron

2 X 10 warriors
2 ghost arks
1 X 10 gauss blaster immortals

2 X 5 destroyers
1 X 3 heavy destroyers
Monolith

My list was:

Evil suns outrider

Warboss on bike with killa Klaw and brutal but kunnin
Zhadsnark

2 X 1 megatrakk Scrapjets
1 big shoota deffkopta

Big trakk with supa skorcha and 2 skorchas

Deffskulls battalion

2 X weirdboys

3 X 10 grots

3 X 1 shokkjump dragstas

3 X 1 smashaguns

Bad moons battalion

Big mek on bike with kff

Weirdboy

3 X 10 grots

13 tank bustas

Wazbom blasta jet with kmks and stikkbomb launchas

He rolled a 6 to go first and I stole!

Turn one I super charged zhadsnark with fists of Gork and warpath and da jumped my bustas 18" away from his monolith and 2 ghost arks.

My shooting phase was crazy successful. My 3 smasha guns killed 5 destroyers. My 3 dragstas killed the unit of 3 heavy destroyers. My bustas popped moar dakka and showin off and did 20 damage to the monolith killing it, put a ghost ark to 2 wounds and another to 9 wounds. The wazbom targeted the other unit of destroyers and used long uncontrolled bursts and took them down to 1! Zhadsnark charged the 1 destroyer and whiffed all 7 attacks?!?!?!?!

His turn he killed the 13 tank bustas, zhadsnark and put one dragsta to 3 wounds. So far I have 11 points to his 3 (played sealed orders)

My turn 2 I killed a ghost ark and his immortals and overlord with his last destroyer squad and He then quitted.

My dragstas again were MVP and same with my bustas. They did insane amount of damage! And my normal DDD rolls were on point for my smashaguns, wazbom and dragstas.

Smasha guns are so undercosted aside from tourney play I prefer the auto hittraktor canons. There is only so much salt you want to draw upon you when using a new codex

i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

No Drukhari in your area, huh? Or tau, or craftworld eldar, or harlequins?

Because I played some trakktors against a venomspam army, and oooooooooooooohhhhhh boy was that satisfying.

Tau kinda vanished in my area and the only Eldar i face sit too close to my choppy things anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

What flying vehicle DOESN'T blow up? Mind you it's not just fly that you need but flying vehicle.

The only failed once to wound with my smasha guns. All my rolls were 7 or higher except once vs a destroyer where I rolled a 4.

I love the new wazbom though. Used to hate it but the damage it did today was amazing, my opponent was surprised by it, and having a 3+ to hit smasha gun is sooo good

Eh, smasha guns are good, but they're not that crazy. They have a worse output/point than KMKs versus Knights (or anything with an invul, really) and are about on par with a Lascannon marine who's within the reroll 1s aura that they already had when shooting at these targets. And devastators aren't exactly setting the world on fire (and this comparison might get worse if CA does drop marine points like people are expecting). It's just that no one's used to Ork shooting being useful, let alone good, so it stands out.

They do absolutely plaster Russ equivalents, though, no doubt about that.

Unrelated, but the Wreckers strat description in the first post has it increasing wound rolls by 1, but it lets you reroll them instead. I half-remember it being that way at some point, too, though. Was it leaked as a +1 at some point?

 deffrekka wrote:
The only failed once to wound with my smasha guns. All my rolls were 7 or higher except once vs a destroyer where I rolled a 4.

I love the new wazbom though. Used to hate it but the damage it did today was amazing, my opponent was surprised by it, and having a 3+ to hit smasha gun is sooo good

Yeah I don't think people have yet realized just HOW MUCH this thing got better.

Wazbom cannons? damage doubled.

Smasha gun? Shots doubled.

That is this thing's damage output casually doubled and it gains access to a 1CP +1 to hit strat against flyers, and shooty kulturs, and it's a mobile KFF.

If you're in an index-free setting the wazbom is your fast ork army's best friend.

I'm just going off my game experience of what they have done for me. People can use that for evidence for a competitive pick or not, so far I'm all my games they have been pulling their weight nicely. Theyve always hit Atleast hit once, wounded and put damage on the target that range from heavy infantry all the way up to toughness 8 vehicles.

Mathammer wise they may not be crazy with damage output but from game experience they have been in my top 3 units. Tankbustas, dragstas and smasha guns. Then wazbom at number 4 and Scrapjets coming in at number 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
The only failed once to wound with my smasha guns. All my rolls were 7 or higher except once vs a destroyer where I rolled a 4.

I love the new wazbom though. Used to hate it but the damage it did today was amazing, my opponent was surprised by it, and having a 3+ to hit smasha gun is sooo good

Yeah I don't think people have yet realized just HOW MUCH this thing got better.

Wazbom cannons? damage doubled.

Smasha gun? Shots doubled.

That is this thing's damage output casually doubled and it gains access to a 1CP +1 to hit strat against flyers, and shooty kulturs, and it's a mobile KFF.

If you're in an index-free setting the wazbom is your fast ork army's best friend.

I completely agree with you, I always assumed it'd stay trash even with the pts increase and so do my opponents. They are usually like lol why you bringing that piece of squig turd. And then they get the opening salvo and suddenly they respect it. It doesn't even need the kff to be good if your on a budget

Wazbom went up enough for me to want to kitbash one of my FIVE freakin dakkajets into one finally lol
Since can only have 3 dakkajets and i could care less about blitza/burnas...

One of the things I appreciate most about smasha gunz that I didn't realize how much I missed in heavy weapons was "every point my opponent's toughness goes down matters to the strength of my gun."

It is so nice to fire at harlequins, drukhari and cheapo little vehicles like sentinels or piranha and not have them go "nyah nyah your strength 9 gun wounds me exactly the same as a T8 land raider"

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Wazbom went up enough for me to want to kitbash one of my FIVE freakin dakkajets into one finally lol
Since can only have 3 dakkajets and i could care less about blitza/burnas...

I was in the same boat! I have 5 dakkajets and 2 blitza bommers!! So I bought a new set and made the wazbom. I mounted the smasha gun in the rear where the supa shoota goes using the strut from the mek gun kit and using the massive supa shootas you get and placed them where the nose shootas go. Gives it such a tank hunter look. I then traded the anchor slot to put the stikkbomb launcha in or the KFF and the slay was removed and landing gear was placed in the wing (warbike wheels) and the end of the fuselage