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addnid wrote:
Smasha guns are so undercosted aside from tourney play I prefer the auto hittraktor canons. There is only so much salt you want to draw upon you when using a new codex

It looks to me like the Smashas and Bubblechukkas got mixed up on the points page of the codex and nobody from GW noticed or cared.

What Klans have people been running their Wazbom Blastajets? I got one at the start of 8th and would love to dust it off and give it another go now that it has better rules.

 Quackzo wrote:
What Klans have people been running their Wazbom Blastajets? I got one at the start of 8th and would love to dust it off and give it another go.

Since it's quite shooty, I'd imagine most people are running them as Deathskulls, Badmoons, or Freebootaz. Triple rerolls, rerolling 1s to hit, and +1 to hit all seem pretty good, so it's just down to what clan you're running for the rest of your dakka units. Wreckers is the only clan-specific strat that works on it, which might give Deathskulls an edge (but you do already have a free reroll to wound, so not a considerable one).

 Trimarius wrote:
Eh, smasha guns are good, but they're not that crazy. They have a worse output/point than KMKs versus Knights (or anything with an invul, really) and are about on par with a Lascannon marine who's within the reroll 1s aura that they already had when shooting at these targets. And devastators aren't exactly setting the world on fire (and this comparison might get worse if CA does drop marine points like people are expecting). It's just that no one's used to Ork shooting being useful, let alone good, so it stands out.

They do absolutely plaster Russ equivalents, though, no doubt about that.

Unrelated, but the Wreckers strat description in the first post has it increasing wound rolls by 1, but it lets you reroll them instead. I half-remember it being that way at some point, too, though. Was it leaked as a +1 at some point?

The point with Smasha Guns is their price, a KMK is more killy, right, but with the same budget you can run 2 Smasha Guns, getting twice the wounds on the table. 6 Smashas are only 186 points for a crazy grand total of 36 wounds, not even condensed in a single body. And an average of 12 shots hitting on 4s, AP-4 damage D6 with odds to get additional hits thanks to DDD. For that cost they're absolutely crazy.

 Blackie wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
Eh, smasha guns are good, but they're not that crazy. They have a worse output/point than KMKs versus Knights (or anything with an invul, really) and are about on par with a Lascannon marine who's within the reroll 1s aura that they already had when shooting at these targets. And devastators aren't exactly setting the world on fire (and this comparison might get worse if CA does drop marine points like people are expecting). It's just that no one's used to Ork shooting being useful, let alone good, so it stands out.

They do absolutely plaster Russ equivalents, though, no doubt about that.

Unrelated, but the Wreckers strat description in the first post has it increasing wound rolls by 1, but it lets you reroll them instead. I half-remember it being that way at some point, too, though. Was it leaked as a +1 at some point?

The point with Smasha Guns is their price, a KMK is more killy, right, but with the same budget you can run 2 Smasha Guns, getting twice the wounds on the table. 6 Smashas are only 186 points for a crazy grand total of 36 wounds, not even condensed in a single body. And an average of 12 shots hitting on 4s, AP-4 damage D6 with odds to get additional hits thanks to DDD. For that cost they're absolutely crazy.

Though he's right in that vs t8 targets kmk's do cause more damage. Smasha gun having 42% chance to wound compensates the extra 1.5 shots for 6 smasha vs 3 kmk.

Smasha is better vs t7 or lower though

So I played two 1000pt games last night. 1st was against Ultramarines with all primaris including aggressors and a repulsor. The second games was against a Custodes Jetbike list.

Here was the evil sunz list I took for these casual games.


I smashed the Ultra list losing only a few bikers. I only used the unstobbale green tide strat. The warboss rerolling everything with dmg 4 each gobbled up some aggressors and both his captain and Lt in a couple combats. Highlight was when the wartrike, scrapjet, and 7 bustaz killed the repulsor in 1 rd of shooting with no need for strats. Not an optimized list that I brough but it was fun.

I used the same list against an all biker custodes army next. I only killed 4 bikes and wounded another. I simply didn't have enough high Strength weapons to make them take saves. Custodes really are designed to beat hordes. Tactics wise I did better when I charged them and did mortals any way o could not in the psychic phase. They only have fnp against mortals in psychic phase. I was stupid and placed my warboss poorly setting him up to be charged. I used the attack after death stratbut the opponent rolled 4 5++ saves saving his whole squad! Bad moons lootas would have done well against these guys. Next time I'll bring some

Edit: Also I'd like to add that it is fun to use the moar dakka strat with tankbusta bombs and extra stikkbombs strat.

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

The point with Smasha Guns is their price, a KMK is more killy, right, but with the same budget you can run 2 Smasha Guns, getting twice the wounds on the table. 6 Smashas are only 186 points for a crazy grand total of 36 wounds, not even condensed in a single body. And an average of 12 shots hitting on 4s, AP-4 damage D6 with odds to get additional hits thanks to DDD. For that cost they're absolutely crazy.

Though he's right in that vs t8 targets kmk's do cause more damage. Smasha gun having 42% chance to wound compensates the extra 1.5 shots for 6 smasha vs 3 kmk.

Smasha is better vs t7 or lower though

Smashas are probably the best "all around" mek gun, no argument there. I was just pointing out that they aren't as insane as people like to make out. They suffer against anything with an invulnerable save, T8, and -to hit flyers (which, you'll note, is a lot of what you see) and are about on par with things like buffed tankbustas or vanilla SM gunlines, so aren't that big a deal. Certainly something you'll see regularly in Ork lists, but they're not going to upend the game (besides helping Orks actually compete).

And while they do have six wounds each, don't forget that they only have a 5+ save and are totally screwed if they get engaged, so they're not that hard to take out. They're a terrible target for a super-Castellan to shoot at, yes, but that thing doesn't need any help (and is explicitly a super-heavy hunter). Let it have one "counter" that it can't turn into scrap with one round of shooting.

Played 1500 points with ma orkz against death guard.

My list


First turn he moves 3 flying boetids close to me and kill some gretchlins (lol), I think he was too confident with his resistance.

I disembark my tankbustas, move 6 inches and throw tankbombs, I decide to Split 5 bombs into 1 boetid and 5 bombs into another boetid, I waste 3 CP in more stikkbombs and rerolling in wounds, I destroy 1 with 5 bombs and make 8 wounds into the other one with another 5 bombs, he lose like 300 points with the bombs, tankbustas are top gun.

Death guard resist very well the melee ork power, but not enough to stop orks forever, my 30 boyz destroy the third boetid, 10 nobz crush a lot of zombies... He have not enough dakka to kill orks before they charge so I have free charges against all his team, in 2 turns I have 10 nobz and 10 gretchlin dead and he has no boetids, his daemon prince alive just because he was in a place I was not able to charge (due to his wings), a lot of zombies crushed, cultist stomped...

I think the only problems orks can have are dakka armies, but we have gretchlins so we are competitive now.

Pure Death Guard struggles with taking out hordes, so bringing lots of infantry usually puts you at an advantage against them.

Sending drones after gretchin though? Yeah, that was a well-deserved victory for you.

 Trimarius wrote:
Smashas are probably the best "all around" mek gun, no argument there. I was just pointing out that they aren't as insane as people like to make out. They suffer against anything with an invulnerable save, T8, and -to hit flyers (which, you'll note, is a lot of what you see) and are about on par with things like buffed tankbustas or vanilla SM gunlines, so aren't that big a deal. Certainly something you'll see regularly in Ork lists, but they're not going to upend the game (besides helping Orks actually compete).

And while they do have six wounds each, don't forget that they only have a 5+ save and are totally screwed if they get engaged, so they're not that hard to take out. They're a terrible target for a super-Castellan to shoot at, yes, but that thing doesn't need any help (and is explicitly a super-heavy hunter). Let it have one "counter" that it can't turn into scrap with one round of shooting.

Well KMK is pretty much as screwed by inv save anyway. And as for being easy to take out harder than boyz.

Thoughts on this Freebootas list which focuses on units with base Bs4+. The core of the army is 3 x max squads of flash gitz embarked in trukks, with the KFF bubble. Any trukk which is destroyed they can use the loot it strat and grots nearby to potentially shield. The idea is to use the Mek guns to try and get the kulture going (alternatively dakkajets on MSU chaff) The Flash gitz are nasty with 3+ to hit and badrukks rr1s and DDD becomes so much better with the accuracy buffs. Also, assuming squads alive theres 50% chance to shoot one squad again. Big mek can have Kunnin but brutal to shift the trukks behind cover if dont get first turn.

Potential to hit extremely hard, or too many eggs in one basket?

tneva82 wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
Smashas are probably the best "all around" mek gun, no argument there. I was just pointing out that they aren't as insane as people like to make out. They suffer against anything with an invulnerable save, T8, and -to hit flyers (which, you'll note, is a lot of what you see) and are about on par with things like buffed tankbustas or vanilla SM gunlines, so aren't that big a deal. Certainly something you'll see regularly in Ork lists, but they're not going to upend the game (besides helping Orks actually compete).

And while they do have six wounds each, don't forget that they only have a 5+ save and are totally screwed if they get engaged, so they're not that hard to take out. They're a terrible target for a super-Castellan to shoot at, yes, but that thing doesn't need any help (and is explicitly a super-heavy hunter). Let it have one "counter" that it can't turn into scrap with one round of shooting.

Well KMK is pretty much as screwed by inv save anyway. And as for being easy to take out harder than boyz.

Agreed.

Every gun in the game, from grot blastas to volcano cannons, gets negated by the same invul roll. The smasha gun is not worse because of invulns.

Levski wrote:
Thoughts on this Freebootas list which focuses on units with base Bs4+. The core of the army is 3 x max squads of flash gitz embarked in trukks, with the KFF bubble. Any trukk which is destroyed they can use the loot it strat and grots nearby to potentially shield. The idea is to use the Mek guns to try and get the kulture going (alternatively dakkajets on MSU chaff) The Flash gitz are nasty with 3+ to hit and badrukks rr1s and DDD becomes so much better with the accuracy buffs. Also, assuming squads alive theres 50% chance to shoot one squad again. Big mek can have Kunnin but brutal to shift the trukks behind cover if dont get first turn.

Potential to hit extremely hard, or too many eggs in one basket?

Spoiler:

Big Mek
KFF

Kaptin Badruk
Ammo runt

14 Grotz
14 Grotz
14 Grotz

10 Flash Gitz
2 Ammo runt
10 Flash Gitz
2 Ammo runt
8 Flash Gitz
1 Ammo runt

Trukk
Trukk
Trukk

3 x Tractor gun
3 x Smasha Guns

Freebootas Airwing

Dakkajet
Dakkajet
Dakkajet

A few things wrong with this:
1) Kunnin but brutal shifts d3 trukks, this can easily be just 1, with the other two hanging out to dry.
2) When your opponent neutralizes the three trukks and the contents, you have zero units left to impact the game
3) If your opponent kills more than one trukk per turn, you won't be able to loot more than one.
4) You are paying 840 points for what amounts to three units of primaris marines. Think back to the last time you played against primaris marines and about how durable those were. In general, your army has too few wounds, you'll probably end up tabled more often than not.

In general, I see no reason to field units of more than 5 flash gits. For what you are trying to do, I would just get 2x 5 in a battlewagon with a gretchin unit to eat explosion wounds, grot shield or capture objectives, and spend the other points to get more bodies into your army.

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
Smashas are probably the best "all around" mek gun, no argument there. I was just pointing out that they aren't as insane as people like to make out. They suffer against anything with an invulnerable save, T8, and -to hit flyers (which, you'll note, is a lot of what you see) and are about on par with things like buffed tankbustas or vanilla SM gunlines, so aren't that big a deal. Certainly something you'll see regularly in Ork lists, but they're not going to upend the game (besides helping Orks actually compete).

And while they do have six wounds each, don't forget that they only have a 5+ save and are totally screwed if they get engaged, so they're not that hard to take out. They're a terrible target for a super-Castellan to shoot at, yes, but that thing doesn't need any help (and is explicitly a super-heavy hunter). Let it have one "counter" that it can't turn into scrap with one round of shooting.

Well KMK is pretty much as screwed by inv save anyway. And as for being easy to take out harder than boyz.

Agreed.

Every gun in the game, from grot blastas to volcano cannons, gets negated by the same invul roll. The smasha gun is not worse because of invulns.

As it pays for its AP, it is definitely affected by invul saves. That grot doesn't care a single bit if you rotate those ion shields for a 3++, the knight's normal armor save of 3+ did the exact same thing. Losing out on the AP-4 for the Smasha is huge. A tankbusta shooting at a 3+/5++ target gets his full value out of the shot, but a smasha "wastes" two points of AP that it paid for. Since the KMK paid for less AP, it also wastes less when firing at targets that have some form of invul and becomes the more deadly gun from a damage/point comparison. If they're both firing at a T8 3+ no invul and a T8 3+/5++ target, the smasha goes from being ~10% more efficient per point to being ~10% less efficient per point.

Mek guns are also harder to kill than a grot, but that doesn't make them hard to kill. Having all six wounds condensed into a single T5 5+ body make them extremely susceptible to all sorts of guns that would only kill a single grot (dissies, plasma, rokkits, lascannons, etc.) while still being quite vulnerable to small arms fire. Obviously you'd never want to be shooting plasma at grots, but mek guns are a perfectly good target, doubly so for mid-range weapons.

And again, a handful of flankers can effectively remove multiple mek guns from the game, as those grot attacks aren't threatening anything, and even if the flankers never kill the guns, they're just going to keep re-charging the turn after the guns fall back, preventing them from ever firing again.

My Mek gunz get targeted and removed usually fairly early on, they've been identified amongst my regular opponents as a high priority threat. I tend to use this to my advantage, I always stick a big Mek kff nearby to ensure they soak up more wounds, and get a few back, but I expect them to die turn 1 or 2.
Their relative toughness means that at t5 and 6 wounds that most opponents target them with their tank popping weapons, meaning that my buggies and other vehicles tend to get left alone. A lot of firepower in the first turn is devoted to them which gives me a great deal of tactical flexibility. They can't ignore them, as my smasha guns will definitely do some work if they're still on the table.
As a distraction carnifex that is also highly viable as an effective unit they are without a doubt the best unit in the game. Every list should have some.

I was thinking to play a list where I could use the best of ES and Goffs, this is the core of 1750, upgradable to 2k with a dakkaplane an some bikes.
Do you guys think this might work? If not why?

 Trimarius wrote:
If they're both firing at a T8 3+ no invul and a T8 3+/5++ target, the smasha goes from being ~10% more efficient per point to being ~10% less efficient per point.

IMO this is the only thing that matters - how efficient the gun is when shooting any given target, no matter how much AP it "loses".

Theres a big difference in how you think about mek gunz in your list.

This list suits mek gunz:


This list however, mek gunz are a bit of a hindrance (i've put the same total mek gunz in each list)


I think both of these lists are good, and I would say on the surface they both want the long range reliability mek gun shooting brings. However, the second list deepstrikes the deff dreads and the meganobz, leaving the only heavy armour on the field as the mek gunz for one or two turns of shooting. You're turning on all their heavy weaponry in a manner that is mindless, e.g. "shoot the little vehicles with my volcano lance". This means that you get into a shooting match that you might easily lose because you didnt bring enough gunz. The second list suffers from mek gunz being deleted, then when your deepstrike arrives, their guns are ready to shoot the assaulty stuff. Mek gunz also don't clear the screens well enough to allow your deepstrikes to land well, it's possible that Lootas would be better in this list.

However, if I change my assault units into nobz in battlewagons (as with the first list), all of a sudden I like my mek gunz a lot better. It's subtle, but important. Now my opponent has to choose between deleting my charging unit or my mek gunz, maybe even the dakka jet comes into that equation. I'm a lot happier if they are shooting my mek gunz now, because that means my battle wagons are going to be full strength when they charge turn 1 or 2, and my nobz get to be the best they can be. Maybe I'm also happy if they shoot my battle wagons, because my mek gunz get to do work for longer (maybe even compete in the long range shooting game). I can also CHOOSE for my opponent, because my battle wagons are big units I can LOS my mek gunz with my battlewagons and force them to shoot my wagons first, with some clever deployment.

Also side note, I've been running all three mek gunz for a while now, and I've landed on 4 KMK and 3 traktor. I actually think smasha don't do enough damage, become too difficult to protect in large numbers, and give too many kill points over to my opponents in ITC. KMK however, if I can get them in range, typically delete what they shoot, allowing me to win most heavy shooting battles if I play the movement/deployment phase correctly.
edit: also small things, like rerolling dice feels more valuable with a KMK, also repairing a KMK is more significant (we always bring a big mek with KFF right?). Rerolling D6 shots is a fairly reliable change, but if you reroll shots for a smasha you still need to land the strength roll, and rerolling the strength roll only works sometimes (sometimes you just roll 1 and 3) and even then you need 3 shots to make it worth it. Just feels bad, isn't very clutch and has very little wiggle room.

 Emicrania wrote:
I was thinking to play a list where I could use the best of ES and Goffs, this is the core of 1750, upgradable to 2k with a dakkaplane an some bikes.
Do you guys think this might work? If not why?

Not aimed at you in specific, but for everyone:

If you want to have an opinion on an army list, there is an entire forum dedicated to exactly that. It's difficult to keep track of discussions on multiple lists at the same time, so it's better to have a dedicated thread for each one.

Feel free to drop links to those threads in here, so interested people can follow them. I know I tend to ignore lists posted here because when I get to read them, the thread has already moved on for a page or more and there is little point in responding.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
If they're both firing at a T8 3+ no invul and a T8 3+/5++ target, the smasha goes from being ~10% more efficient per point to being ~10% less efficient per point.

IMO this is the only thing that matters - how efficient the gun is when shooting any given target, no matter how much AP it "loses".

Ignoring damage output, there are other variables to consider.

Smash vs KMK pros: larger foot print, more durable per point.
Smash vs KMK cons: more kill points, harder to cover in KFF.

 hollow one wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
If they're both firing at a T8 3+ no invul and a T8 3+/5++ target, the smasha goes from being ~10% more efficient per point to being ~10% less efficient per point.

IMO this is the only thing that matters - how efficient the gun is when shooting any given target, no matter how much AP it "loses".

Ignoring damage output, there are other variables to consider.

Smash vs KMK pros: larger foot print, more durable per point.
Smash vs KMK cons: more kill points, harder to cover in KFF.

I might have been hiding under a rock, but why is that?

well you get 2 guns per 1 gun for the same points with Smasha vs KMK. In these comparison we are always considering point vs point efficiency (this is the correct way to compare) but in practical terms that means double the guns on the board if you're playing with smasha.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I was thinking to play a list where I could use the best of ES and Goffs, this is the core of 1750, upgradable to 2k with a dakkaplane an some bikes.
Do you guys think this might work? If not why?

Not aimed at you in specific, but for everyone:

If you want to have an opinion on an army list, there is an entire forum dedicated to exactly that. It's difficult to keep track of discussions on multiple lists at the same time, so it's better to have a dedicated thread for each one.

Feel free to drop links to those threads in here, so interested people can follow them. I know I tend to ignore lists posted here because when I get to read them, the thread has already moved on for a page or more and there is little point in responding.

Sure thing.

 hollow one wrote:
well you get 2 guns per 1 gun for the same points with Smasha vs KMK. In these comparison we are always considering point vs point efficiency (this is the correct way to compare) but in practical terms that means double the guns on the board if you're playing with smasha.

Ah, right. Thanks for explaining

Bugger.

Mek guns are also harder to kill than a grot, but that doesn't make them hard to kill. Having all six wounds condensed into a single T5 5+ body make them extremely susceptible to all sorts of guns that would only kill a single grot (dissies, plasma, rokkits, lascannons, etc.) while still being quite vulnerable to small arms fire. Obviously you'd never want to be shooting plasma at grots, but mek guns are a perfectly good target, doubly so for mid-range weapons.

And again, a handful of flankers can effectively remove multiple mek guns from the game, as those grot attacks aren't threatening anything, and even if the flankers never kill the guns, they're just going to keep re-charging the turn after the guns fall back, preventing them from ever firing again.

The worst is the riptide gatling, which can delete 2 mek gunz (9 hits, 6 wounds = 6*2 dmg = 2 mek gunz dead) out of KFF or cover, without even a single marker light being needed. Forsmasha gunz its ok they are so cheap. For other variants, well talk about a hard counter...
All the more reason to KFF all non-smasha mek gunz (when facing tau at least)

addnid wrote:

Mek guns are also harder to kill than a grot, but that doesn't make them hard to kill. Having all six wounds condensed into a single T5 5+ body make them extremely susceptible to all sorts of guns that would only kill a single grot (dissies, plasma, rokkits, lascannons, etc.) while still being quite vulnerable to small arms fire. Obviously you'd never want to be shooting plasma at grots, but mek guns are a perfectly good target, doubly so for mid-range weapons.

And again, a handful of flankers can effectively remove multiple mek guns from the game, as those grot attacks aren't threatening anything, and even if the flankers never kill the guns, they're just going to keep re-charging the turn after the guns fall back, preventing them from ever firing again.

The worst is the riptide gatling, which can delete 2 mek gunz (9 hits, 6 wounds = 6*2 dmg = 2 mek gunz dead) out of KFF or cover, without even a single marker light being needed. Forsmasha gunz its ok they are so cheap. For other variants, well talk about a hard counter...
All the more reason to KFF all non-smasha mek gunz (when facing tau at least)

How does a single gun kill two separate units?

By cheating.

tneva82 wrote:
By cheating.

Super special anime powers, he just flicks the gun back and forth really fast.

 Emicrania wrote:
I was thinking to play a list where I could use the best of ES and Goffs, this is the core of 1750, upgradable to 2k with a dakkaplane an some bikes.
Do you guys think this might work? If not why?

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) ++

Clan Kultur: Goffs

+ HQ +

Boss Zagstruk

Weirdboy: 4. Fists of Gork

+ Troops +

Boyz: Skarboyz (1 CP), Tankbusta Bombs
. . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. . 28x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

+ Fast Attack +

Stormboyz
. . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. . 19x Stormboy

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

+ HQ +

Warboss on Warbike (index): Attack Squig, Butal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw, Shoota (Index), Warlord

Weirdboy: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Tankbustas
. . Boss Nob: Rokkit Launcha
. . 9x Tankbusta: 9x Rokkit Launcha

+ Fast Attack +

Warbikers
. . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. . 8x Warbiker: 8x Stikkbombs

+ Heavy Support +

Gorkanaut: 2x Rokkit Launcha, Skorcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota

Mek Gunz
. . Gun: Smasha Gun
. . Gun: Smasha Gun
. . Gun: Smasha Gun
. . Gun: Traktor Kannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk: Big Shoota

Nice list! I would take more boyz. Skarboyz or not, the goff trait REALLY shines with lots of boys. and meganobz.