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So what would you recommend? Between lootas and tankbustas the lootas always stood out to me due to being useful even if the enemy didn't bring any vehicles. (Rare as that may be.) I also have scrapjets, deffrollas and the skarboys themselves who can put a few extra wounds onto any large targets.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
There is no such thing as ‘overkill’ - just an insufficiency of targets.

At 2000 points? Not at all.

25 lootas with Mora Dakka and shooting twice have barely the average to bring down a land raider in a turn of shooting and the crusader is now just 264 points.

It's actually quite the opposite of what you said, you'll probably have too many targets for your lootas.

Toughness 8 targets yes, Toughness 7 targets and below are going to get liquified.

Against drukhari, even if orks start first, 25 lootas don't have the math to kill all the T5, T6, T7 vehicles and monsters thanks to their invulns and 6+++. In all the games I've played with those 25 lootas not a single time they ran out of appropriate targets.

I recommend not bothering with Organised Tournament play unless you're bringing Knights+Custodes tbh. However if you luck into not facing them you'll be fine with your current list.

If you're sure to face a knight I'd take the max tankbustas bomb and 1-2 dakkajets. Then charge the walker with bonebreakas and/or biker boss. I don't think there's a super effective way to deal with the most overpowered knight at the moment, it's the most broken combo, the flavor of the month. To kill it you must dedicate way more points of your stuff than the knight's cost.

To be fair, the best way for orks to deal with a Castellan is to only bring 1W models except for characters, and ignore it. Castellan is terrible at killing hordes, and it seems to be the most common knight around. A Killa Claw warboss can be enough of a threat to stop it from going into melee.

Facing Imperial Knights is tough, since they have a few models that are way too good for their points especially when souped up.
Primarily the gallants because they're so cheap and the Castellan for their firepower.

Facing a singular Knight + Guard brigade is something you (as in all ork players) should be ready for in a tournament. That list probably also has a supreme command detachment of three shield captains of jetbikes because they're stupid point efficient.

Generally speaking, if you're facing army + 1 Knight then I think you should try to kill the knight, a character in CC will do damage to them and might kill them if you get to swing again (either from get stuck in ladz or from orkz is never beaten). If they're rolling with a Castellan and a guard brigade I just assume you have enough Orkz to deal with the 'umies so that's a winnable match. If they also have the shield captains or plural knights then you might have to start abusing stupid ITC rules assuming that's the ruleset. Hide stuff inside LoS blocking buildings, since those things can't enter and only Guard has some mortars that can really reach them.

Overall if you're facing IK as orkz it's really important to play the mission unless you have some really oddball list that's entirely consisted of MANZ, tankbustas, lootas etc

Blackie wrote:I don't think there's a super effective way to deal with the most overpowered knight at the moment, it's the most broken combo, the flavor of the month. To kill it you must dedicate way more points of your stuff than the knight's cost.

hortsmann wrote:To be fair, the best way for orks to deal with a Castellan is to only bring 1W models except for characters, and ignore it. Castellan is terrible at killing hordes, and it seems to be the most common knight around. A Killa Claw warboss can be enough of a threat to stop it from going into melee.

Castellan is what 600points? I think it has always been a solid idea to ignore, and focus on removing everything around. That way I think the whole 600points is pretty hard to pay dividents. Even if it did remove all the vehicles I got going, it's still 600pts for under 400pts. And most of those vehicles did their job by that time.

Most common knights I see tends to be 1 castellan and 2 gallants.

Ilgoth wrote:

Blackie wrote:I don't think there's a super effective way to deal with the most overpowered knight at the moment, it's the most broken combo, the flavor of the month. To kill it you must dedicate way more points of your stuff than the knight's cost.

hortsmann wrote:To be fair, the best way for orks to deal with a Castellan is to only bring 1W models except for characters, and ignore it. Castellan is terrible at killing hordes, and it seems to be the most common knight around. A Killa Claw warboss can be enough of a threat to stop it from going into melee.

Castellan is what 600points? I think it has always been a solid idea to ignore, and focus on removing everything around. That way I think the whole 600points is pretty hard to pay dividents. Even if it did remove all the vehicles I got going, it's still 600pts for under 400pts. And most of those vehicles did their job by that time.

Most common knights I see tends to be 1 castellan and 2 gallants.

My recipe for a Castellan:
- 10 tankbusta's in a Chinork. Bring it within 6
- Use strategem "Long uncontrolable bursts" on the Chinork
- Use extra Stikkbombs on the tankbustas"

10 x d3 rerollable shots which hit on a 4+ (3+ when Freetbootaz). d6 damage the piece will hurt the knight for sure.

Would this work?

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

My recipe for a Castellan:
- 10 tankbusta's in a Chinork. Bring it within 6
- Use strategem "Long uncontrolable bursts" on the Chinork
- Use extra Stikkbombs on the tankbustas"

10 x d3 rerollable shots which hit on a 4+ (3+ when Freetbootaz). d6 damage the piece will hurt the knight for sure.

Would this work?

Sure it hurts...Except it's illegal. No strategems can be used on units inside transport. Ergo you are throwing _one_ grenade.

Also last time I checked knights don't(luckily) fly so no +1 to hit either.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:


My recipe for a Castellan:
- 10 tankbusta's in a Chinork. Bring it within 6
- Use strategem "Long uncontrolable bursts" on the Chinork
- Use extra Stikkbombs on the tankbustas"

10 x d3 rerollable shots which hit on a 4+ (3+ when Freetbootaz). d6 damage the piece will hurt the knight for sure.

Would this work?

Sorry, but you can't use Stratagems on units, inside Transporter. They count as not being on the playing field.

Oh boy this argument again.

You're not using Long uncontrolable bursts on the unit inside. You're using Long uncontrolable bursts on the Chinork vehicle itself.

The Chinork has the Open Topped rule, which reads:

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and line of sight from any point on this model's base. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. Note that passengers cannot shoot if this model Falls Back, even though the 'Chinork' Warkopta itself can.

The key term here is "When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers". What does LUB do? "Until the end of the phase, add 1 to hit rolls for shooting attacks made by that unit that target enemy units that can FLY." Oh look, the Chinork has a +1 to hit vs FLY enemies. Therefore the unit inside has +1 to hit vs FLY enemies due to the open top rule, because +1 to hit is, by definition, a modifier.

This is what the rules actually say, you're free to ignore them if you wish.

But as pointed out, Knights (thank the Manperor), cannot FLY. Not yet anyway.

They were referring to the use of extra stikkbombs

Booger ork wrote:
They were referring to the use of extra stikkbombs

That makes more sense.

The "best" option orks have against a knight is to T1 clear out screens with Da Jumped Shoota Boyz or Dakkajets, then turn two Tellyport two max units of Tankbustas, Mob Up, More Dakka into Showin' Off. Yes, that's 9CP but it's the only way you'll even remotely come close to killing it. A single unit (for 6CP) simply won't cut the mustard.

I've said it before but I guess I'll say it again. AFAIK the only way to get a T1 "extra stikkbombs" on the tankbustas is by using the blitz brigade "hold on, boyz" strat to effectively get them up there. I'm fairly certain that would work since it's basically just embarking and disembarking a transport in the same turn and you wouldn't as such suffer the penalty for the transport having advanced since you're not on it at the time of firing.

Those tankbustas are deffo dead after that though

Im sure this has been covered but I cant find it anywhere with the search. Does the commandos "kunnin infiltrators" bypass the not until turn two deployment restriction? I want maximum threat overload with my evil sunz and looking for no CP spending ways to get orks in quick.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Im sure this has been covered but I cant find it anywhere with the search. Does the commandos "kunnin infiltrators" bypass the not until turn two deployment restriction? I want maximum threat overload with my evil sunz and looking for no CP spending ways to get orks in quick.

No. Every unit that is not deployed on the battlefield during the set up, is in the reserves/reinforcements and none of those cannot arrive before battle round 2. This is to balance out heavy deep striking armies, otherwise they could always avoid damage for one full round.

Ilgoth wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Im sure this has been covered but I cant find it anywhere with the search. Does the commandos "kunnin infiltrators" bypass the not until turn two deployment restriction? I want maximum threat overload with my evil sunz and looking for no CP spending ways to get orks in quick.

No. Every unit that is not deployed on the battlefield during the set up, is in the reserves/reinforcements and none of those cannot arrive before battle round 2. This is to balance out heavy deep striking armies, otherwise they could always avoid damage for one full round.

I figured as much. I think the only army that will not have this restriction is the new GSC. or so its rumored.

I never worry about killing a Knight. I generally just try to keep it busy while the rest of my army handles business. Deffkoptas are pretty cheap, can pass screens, and (with Evil Sunz) have a good chance to make it into CC. Take em in groups of 3, and you should be able to hold a Knight down for at least 3 rounds, giving you plenty of time to handle the chaff and gain VPs.

 flandarz wrote:
I never worry about killing a Knight. I generally just try to keep it busy while the rest of my army handles business. Deffkoptas are pretty cheap, can pass screens, and (with Evil Sunz) have a good chance to make it into CC. Take em in groups of 3, and you should be able to hold a Knight down for at least 3 rounds, giving you plenty of time to handle the chaff and gain VPs.

How are you keeping them tied up for multiple turns, even with 3x3 deffkoptas? Knights can fall back and shoot without penalty, and even a castellan should be able to kick a kopta or two to death to open an escape route if you surround it.

If you really have it out for knights, just bring eighteen KMKs. Yeah, it's a thousand points, but that should one round a 3++ castellan (and the castellan's only going to kill a couple of them in return, assuming you don't have anything it wants to shoot more). Or just about kill two normal knights. I know smashas are all the rage, but KMKs are still more efficient against things with invuls.

Interesting report Tneva, thanks for that. Your boards seem similar to the ones I play on, lots of vehicle blocking terrain and LOS blocking. As such I'd like to ask you, can you see a vehicle heavy list perform well on such boards? I'm trying to build a mechanized ork list but even with only some vehicles and walkers I'm already having issues deploying and moving well. Half the board is practically off limits to my (atm sole) bonebreaka and even though the buggies are smaller once I have more I'll have issues. So any tips on how to play a list like that on boards like yours are welcome.

Maybe I just got lucky, but I usually managed to keep 2 around after that phase. And my opponent tends to deploy their Castellans to the back corner of the deployment zones, making 2 Koptas enough to keep it stuck in.

Gallants I actually worry a lot less about. We got a lot of hard-hitting CC options to handle them. I prefer Deffdreadz. 90 pts for 4 Sawz that'll be 6 Attacks, 3+WS, Wounding on 3s with decent AP and D.

The issue I see with the KMKs is finding space for them all. They have a sizable footprint.

I mean I guess that could happen Flandarz but I chalk that up to a unicorn type situation.

Just as an aside, I've never seen anyone bring 2 castellans in a single list, that seems like a way too singular focus and you're also missing out on all the other knight relics.

Facing 2 knights that are both so crammed into the corner that they can't back out 1" seems quite unlikely. That neither of them manages to smack a few deffkoptas out of the sky is also quite a gamble. This also means that your opponent has no counter-charge units in the area, since any dedicated melee combined with even a suboptimal melee knight should wreck a few deffkoptas. Could it happen? I guess, but tri-pointing knights will at most buy you a single round if you're lucky in most cases.

My big issue with the KMKs (which I do really like still, though I rarely bring more than 2 mek gunz) is the 36" range. I often want to use mek gunz to destroy my opponents backline, the units my T1 charges won't reach. 36" is often a tad short for that.

No. Sorry. Just one Castellan. They just deploy the guy to the corner, usually. So I can generally box them in with 2 Koptas, because of the oval (and large) base on the Castellan.

Yeah, it's a gamble. But, at the very least, it puts Koptas in the opponent's deployment zone, so they can't really just ignore them. They will need to devote resources to taking them down, which is resources they don't spend on other units.

 Castozor wrote:
Interesting report Tneva, thanks for that. Your boards seem similar to the ones I play on, lots of vehicle blocking terrain and LOS blocking. As such I'd like to ask you, can you see a vehicle heavy list perform well on such boards? I'm trying to build a mechanized ork list but even with only some vehicles and walkers I'm already having issues deploying and moving well. Half the board is practically off limits to my (atm sole) bonebreaka and even though the buggies are smaller once I have more I'll have issues. So any tips on how to play a list like that on boards like yours are welcome.

No idea seeing I play mostly footslogging. Certainly deepstriking 3xdeff dreads has been headache though which is why I'm starting to think going for 2 dread mobs instead.

OTOH good thing is plenty of room to hide those bonebreakers from shooting seeing how soft they tend to be these days.

I don't think orks match up that bad to knights as long as you don't have anything worthwhile for them to shoot at. They're actually the only army I can think of that you can make where the knight player would have literally nothing worthwhile to shoot at. Just ignore it and kill everything else with your lootas/boyz and if and when the opportunity arises you can charge your smashboss in. In the meantime he can knock himself out firing all his expensive weapons at a bunch of boyz and grots with 5++.

Anyone else think that knights have absolutely ruined 40k? Luckily we don't play or even allow LoWs in our gaming circle but I think it's just so so sad that every discussion about tactics or whatever revolves around the question of "how does this work against knights?"

I wouldn't mind knights if they were actually vulnerable to AT weapons, as it would add the need for them in lists. But with the 3++, unless you can deal a bunch of mortal wounds (haywire), all they do is prevent other armies from playing multiwound models.

 Weazel wrote:
Anyone else think that knights have absolutely ruined 40k? Luckily we don't play or even allow LoWs in our gaming circle but I think it's just so so sad that every discussion about tactics or whatever revolves around the question of "how does this work against knights?"

I agree, but I'd also put some superheroes or combos with 2+ codexes in the same basket, not only knights. With my competitive group of friends we play full TAC lists with just two house rules, which deeply affects the meta, changing it completely: No soups, No LoWs. It works very well providing a farily balanced game. We allow LoWs and soups for casual players at the store, friendly open/narrative play or for arranging some games for those who want to practise for a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I don't think orks match up that bad to knights as long as you don't have anything worthwhile for them to shoot at. They're actually the only army I can think of that you can make where the knight player would have literally nothing worthwhile to shoot at. Just ignore it and kill everything else with your lootas/boyz and if and when the opportunity arises you can charge your smashboss in. In the meantime he can knock himself out firing all his expensive weapons at a bunch of boyz and grots with 5++.

That's true but it's only that specific type of list that performs very well against knights, the green tide, and I can't stand it, I'd rather play another army than fielding 200 footsloggers divided into 2 units: boyz and gretchin. To me 55-60 boyz embarked in 3 BWs, which is the core of my favorite set up, are already an horde as many other armies bring just 15-30 troops

PiñaColada wrote:
I've said it before but I guess I'll say it again. AFAIK the only way to get a T1 "extra stikkbombs" on the tankbustas is by using the blitz brigade "hold on, boyz" strat to effectively get them up there. I'm fairly certain that would work since it's basically just embarking and disembarking a transport in the same turn and you wouldn't as such suffer the penalty for the transport having advanced since you're not on it at the time of firing.

Those tankbustas are deffo dead after that though

I don't worry about advancing and shooting assault weapons ( rokkits) I play evil sunz

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I've said it before but I guess I'll say it again. AFAIK the only way to get a T1 "extra stikkbombs" on the tankbustas is by using the blitz brigade "hold on, boyz" strat to effectively get them up there. I'm fairly certain that would work since it's basically just embarking and disembarking a transport in the same turn and you wouldn't as such suffer the penalty for the transport having advanced since you're not on it at the time of firing.

Those tankbustas are deffo dead after that though

I don't worry about advancing and shooting assault weapons ( rokkits) I play evil sunz

I do as well, but you can't chuck grenades after advancing