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tneva82 wrote:
Well 30 stormboyz at least average dark eldar flier.

But yeah point isn't to kill but to ensure you can actually go somewhere rather than be roadblocked by flier.

Assuming you get everyone in, which could easily not be the case. Also, isn't one of those fliers like 135 points? But yeah, avoiding those movement blocking shenanigans might be worth the price of entry.

I still hope supersonic fliers become max 3 at 2000 points. It lets you have an airwing, that feels like it's enough IMO. That 7 flier list at LVO is just anti-fun taken to an extreme.

PiñaColada wrote:
I still think those eliminators with mortis rounds are going to be gamechangers for armies like Orks when they start hitting the tables. Just sniping weirdboyz out of LoS to deny da jump etc.

Mortis Round
Heavy 1 36" S4 Ap-1 D1
This weapon can target units which are not visible to the firer. Add 2 to the hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made by this weapons.

Maximum 3x3 shots of them per army, so hitting on 2+ is 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 damage vs 6+ armor, 2.5 damage vs 4+ armor, 1.25 vs mega armour and 1.66 damage vs characters on bikes. Also 36" means being out of range isn't unlikely.

So, with some support characters they might be able to one-shot a weird boy which is not protected by KFF or pain boyz.

Remember how weirdboyz were considered useless when the castellan missile stratagem was revealed? I think this is similar, the sky is not falling.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I still think those eliminators with mortis rounds are going to be gamechangers for armies like Orks when they start hitting the tables. Just sniping weirdboyz out of LoS to deny da jump etc.

Mortis Round
Heavy 1 36" S4 Ap-1 D1
This weapon can target units which are not visible to the firer. Add 2 to the hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made by this weapons.

Maximum 3x3 shots of them per army, so hitting on 2+ is 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 damage vs 6+ armor, 2.5 damage vs 4+ armor, 1.25 vs mega armour and 1.66 damage vs characters on bikes. Also 36" means being out of range isn't unlikely.

So, with some support characters they might be able to one-shot a weird boy which is not protected by KFF or pain boyz.

Remember how weirdboyz were considered useless when the castellan missile stratagem was revealed? I think this is similar, the sky is not falling.

Maybe, but any wound taken on a weirdboy is pretty bad since it means they can now die from perils. Also, that round gives a +2 to hit, so the snipers can move forward 6" and still fire at BS2+, meaning the threat range is 42". Also, since it's SM it's probably fair to assume they're in some sort of reroll bubble, either for hits or wounds.

I'm still fearful of 2 squads of eliminators coupled with a vindicare or two. We'll see if this ends up being a problem or not I suppose.

tneva82 wrote:
Well 30 stormboyz at least average dark eldar flier.

Not if it's a black heart fliers, which it will be since they want access to the vect stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Maybe, but any wound taken on a weirdboy is pretty bad since it means they can now die from perils. Also, that round gives a +2 to hit, so the snipers can move forward 6" and still fire at BS2+, meaning the threat range is 42". Also, since it's SM it's probably fair to assume they're in some sort of reroll bubble, either for hits or wounds.

Moving into position and staying inside re-roll bubbles kind of exclude each other for space marines. Their captains also tend to be on the front hammerings stuff, not near your snipers.

I'm still fearful of 2 squads of eliminators coupled with a vindicare or two. We'll see if this ends up being a problem or not I suppose.

The vindicare is dangerous because it's a character, reliably hits and wounds whatever it is shooting. Put a pain boy near your weird boy and you can pretty much ignore mortis rounds.

When it comes to flyers Zaggstrukk does very well and would have been a solution if not for him being locked into the Goff kultur

30 Stormboyz, if they all magically get into combat with a flyer do 90 attacks, 60 hits and against T5+ they do 20 wounds. Against a 3+ save that is 7ish wounds. In all likelihood though, you will never get more than a handful into combat and will be lucky to strip 2-3 wounds off a flyer in CC.

As for having faith in GW.....when they earn a bit of faith i'll give it to them. At the moment though I have a biker horde, Deff Kopta horde, 3 new buggies, 3 trukkz, 12 killakanz, 2 dreadz, 6 meganobz and a plethora of Nobz collecting dust on my shelf because they can't be fielded in a competitive game.

I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.

PiñaColada wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.

honestly, I will be surprised if Orkz don't get nerfed a bit. You have to remember the mindset of the majority fan base. For years...literally over a decade, every time a SM player ran into an Ork player they thought "Easy Win" and 9 times out of 10 they were right. So now that SMs are arguably not top tier anymore and Orkz have gotten a small boost to be about mid tier those same SM Fanboys are losing more then ever to armies they used to win against easily. I have literally seen SM players use Orkz winning against them as a metric to prove they need a buff.

Which is scarier in a tournament, the Loyal 32 with a Castellan or 20 Lootas hiding behind 90 grotz? Which is scarier, a bunch of eldar flyers with -2 to hit or a Big Mek with relic SAG who hits about 3 times a turn with S7? The issue is that by any metric orkz are mid tier at best but we have units that are carrying us to that level and other players hate the fact that their shiny toys get killed before they get to annihilate 100-120 Orkz. Those Mek guns are trash, I literally don't bring any because its easy Kill Points to my opponent and they honestly don't do that much damage, Loota bombs and Relic sags I bring but honestly those are distraction carnifexs as my real stopping power is in the form of a stupid strong BETA strike from 60-90 Boyz and some Bonebreaker wagons deepstriking turn 2.

I expect Lootas to get hit with the nerf bat hard, either a points increase or making them unable to use stratagems or specific strats like grot shields or shoot twice. I expect the Relic SAG to stay the same or at the most get a points increase on the Big Mek and I expect the Mek gunz to be made useless.

SemperMortis wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I bet all we're gonna see for changes are point increases for SAG Meks, Lootaz, and Mek Gunz. Watch.

Let's not give them any ideas haha!

Honestly, if they consider the loota bomb to be too good then removing the ability to mob up lootas would solve that IMO. Buffing 15 is nowhere near the same as buffing 22-25. Obviously it's crazy if they nerf lootas and not nerf bat some IK as well then (alongside Ynnari, but that might all be in the May WD and not April FAQ).

If they wanna up the point cost of smasha guns a bit, then fine. I wouldn't riot if they went to 35-40 points total.

The SAG mek is weird because he's terrible without the dread waaagh, so nerfing him would be crazy. If they wanted to do anything there, it should be changing what "kustom ammo" does as I don't really think any army should more than one way of shooting units twice.

If they did all that -and- fixed the units on the other end of the spectrum I'd be completely fine with it. But man do we have some stuff needing love right now. Honestly I wonder how Orks would do if GW suddenly said: No more index options and boyz/stormboyz/kommandos etc need to be on 32's from here on in.

honestly, I will be surprised if Orkz don't get nerfed a bit. You have to remember the mindset of the majority fan base. For years...literally over a decade, every time a SM player ran into an Ork player they thought "Easy Win" and 9 times out of 10 they were right. So now that SMs are arguably not top tier anymore and Orkz have gotten a small boost to be about mid tier those same SM Fanboys are losing more then ever to armies they used to win against easily. I have literally seen SM players use Orkz winning against them as a metric to prove they need a buff.

Which is scarier in a tournament, the Loyal 32 with a Castellan or 20 Lootas hiding behind 90 grotz? Which is scarier, a bunch of eldar flyers with -2 to hit or a Big Mek with relic SAG who hits about 3 times a turn with S7? The issue is that by any metric orkz are mid tier at best but we have units that are carrying us to that level and other players hate the fact that their shiny toys get killed before they get to annihilate 100-120 Orkz. Those Mek guns are trash, I literally don't bring any because its easy Kill Points to my opponent and they honestly don't do that much damage, Loota bombs and Relic sags I bring but honestly those are distraction carnifexs as my real stopping power is in the form of a stupid strong BETA strike from 60-90 Boyz and some Bonebreaker wagons deepstriking turn 2.

I expect Lootas to get hit with the nerf bat hard, either a points increase or making them unable to use stratagems or specific strats like grot shields or shoot twice. I expect the Relic SAG to stay the same or at the most get a points increase on the Big Mek and I expect the Mek gunz to be made useless.

Not to mention that they have the majority of the players, they will also be the ones having the most submissions into the GW rules team realistically. I recently heard a few comments about how great ork shooting is now and it's not fair, they shouldnt shoot that well. Their shooting isn't even good it's 2 units that make it look good.

Okay, looks like Nick N is out.

We do have Bryan Hancock with 178/200 points (7th) &
Bilbo baggings (Pampreen I think) with 174/200 points (8th)

According to my BCP app we have 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th positions

Carnage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the SAG Mek takes a hit, I've just started painting mine so sods' law.

The Souped Up Shokka is a victim of the fact that everyone only remembers the time it 'did 10 wounds to a Castellan' or 'destroyed a Leman Russ in one go' and not the myriad of times it does literally nothing. It's swingy, which is a problem for GW IMO. They should've given it a higher min Str (5+D6?) and a lower number of shots (3+D6?) IMO.

One thing I really wouldn't be surprised about seeing nerfed is Grot Shields. That's the problem child. Lootas and the SS SAG Mek are weaksauce without their ablative wounds. Make that harder to pull off/more expensive and we'll better see where their true value lies.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
According to my BCP app we have 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th positions

Carnage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the SAG Mek takes a hit, I've just started painting mine so sods' law.

The Souped Up Shokka is a victim of the fact that everyone only remembers the time it 'did 10 wounds to a Castellan' or 'destroyed a Leman Russ in one go' and not the myriad of times it does literally nothing. It's swingy, which is a problem for GW IMO. They should've given it a higher min Str (5+D6?) and a lower number of shots (3+D6?) IMO.

One thing I really wouldn't be surprised about seeing nerfed is Grot Shields. That's the problem child. Lootas and the SS SAG Mek are weaksauce without their ablative wounds. Make that harder to pull off/more expensive and we'll better see where their true value lies.

I feel like it is the same thing with most of out Units. I have had lootas fail to take out even a single marine in a turn and have had them take out a full health Leman Russ. its swingy with d3 shots and hitting 1/3 with exploding 6's... I mean I get it, its hard to balance that but to that I would ask why not remove some of the rqndomness. Like SAG heavy 4 str d6+4 (relic SAG heavy 7 or 8), or loota gun heavy 2 so its got a consistent amount and not pointed like we will get 6 or 12 shots on a SAG and 3 on a loota.

another thought on lootas would be d3 per model as it should help with averages, problem now is one dice determining the performance of such an expensive unit.

yeah the entire dex is swingy, but priced like it always works.

How are grot shields a problem? Really all they protect are characters from snipers and lootas. Since our characters are walking tissuepaper unlike other army's characters, they cant even attempt to shrug off the snipers that usually dont have high AP anyway, i dont see the problem. And lootas are horrifically overpriced if you dont factor grot shields as since they dont have a standard save via cover anymore they will die to a stiff breeze, nevermind also massively swingy.

I'd prefer they had a fairer price and better armour save personally.

Grot Shields is a problem because it denies interaction from the opponent and as you say units are priced ad if its a given. Although saying that its the only real purpose for Grots, outside of taking up space and being cheap troops.

Its a tough one.

First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.

 r_squared wrote:
First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.

anecdotal evidence is anecdotal

The Super Sag averages 7 shots at S7 hitting on 5s with exploding 6s. So you average 2 actual hits and 1.17 rerolls for a .4ish chance of another hit so 2.4 hits. 2.4 hits at S7 vs most vehicles is 1.2 wounds which do D6 damage for 3.5 a turn. so 1.2x3.5 = 4.2 damage, now these numbers are rough averages but that is how it works out. The swingy chances of this weapon is what makes it either a dud or a nuke. Roll high on Shots (10) and 8+ for strength and roll above average for number of hits and suddenly you are dishing out 12-18damage a turn. on the flipside, roll poorly for number of shots and you might get nothing.

I personally love my super SAG because it has a chance to liquify opponents, but its not exactly god caliber and it absolutely isn't on the same level as say a Knight Castellan or the loyal 32, which for some reason have gone several iterations without a nerf.

I agree with Semper. The Supee SAG is nice and all, but it's definitely not a game winner by itself. Even in Freebooterz, when you got a better chance of hitting, wiping a "unit" a turn with just a Super SAG is highly unlikely. I've run FBs, and, realistically, your Smashaz are still doing the heavy lifting in the list. Assuming your opponent don't wipe them.

Great now that we had like 4 ork players place in the top10 GW is probably gonna stiff us with balance changes. Feelsbad

I must be missing something. If were doing well in a tournament....isnt that a good thing? Also, Adepticon is going to have no impact on the FAQ since thats already been written.

Question i have is is the core of these ork lists still boy spam?
Boy spam has always been decent, but boring as feth.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Question i have is is the core of these ork lists still boy spam?
Boy spam has always been decent, but boring as feth.

3 out of the top 4 were boys/grots spam ya. One of the top 10 players ran a gorka, morka, loota, grot spam list with zero boys so there's that at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side the top ork player beat the top eldar flying circus player. What a friggin legend.

Man some of you are never gonna be happy.
LVO, no orks top 10= the orks are bad
Adepticon= 4 orks top 10, GW is bad they will never make orks good.
Jezuz....

Its great that there's 4 Orks in the top 10 at Adepticon.

It just concerns me when people use this to justify their false beliefs that Orks are top tier (as I've already seen from various posters here and elsewhere).

Adepticon has its own very unique ruleset that happens to suit the most competitive Ork list. It also played without the new Assassin rules and obviously had none of the new SM or CSM stuff from Shadow spear and beyond.

So its not really a good measure of anything, by itself.

And I've still yet to see a single new buggy or bike taken competitively. Or Deffdreads, or Kills kans, or Burnas.

Finally - each and every competitive Ork list leans heavily into index options and exploits (free kopta bomms anyone) that will disappear sooner or later.

I'm really happy Orks managed to get something on the board. a 3rd place for Orks isn't bad. It should be noted that Pampreen wouldn't have gotten into the top 16 even at LVO with the same results as he posted here though (since at LVO you get 1000points for a victory in addition to your score, meaning it'll only be the victors facing off at the end).

The biggest thing I want fixed with Orks for the FAQ are on the toyz, not boyz side. Big shootas, supa shootas, power klaws, killsaws, cyborks etc. And then actual mechanised stuff which apart from the nauts and some slot-filling mek gunz aren't taken at all.

It's cool boyz spam plus loota bomb and super SAG is viable. I mean anecdotally there were plent of Ork lists in the top 16 and plenty dropped off after that so it might be a case of that list will beat almost anything but struggle against elite lists.

In any case that's a pretty tame list (in regards to models ) IMO, not many datasheets used and pretty similar to how orks were played pre-codex. That sort of indicates a codex not doing its job IMO, as the book should've opened up new avenues for us Orks. Also GW probably wanted that since most ork players have all the boyz they ever need but few of the buggies & other niche units.

It's pretty much the same for almost every army though. Is there any codex that has more than one list doing well at tournaments?

I'd also appreciate more talk about orks in the game and less tinfoil hat talk about how GW will nerf orks into the ground because they/space marine players hate them. Right now, there is zero reason to believe that orks will be treated different than any other faction.

That's fair, most armies only have one viable build (that allows for some individual tinkering of course)

My point is more along the lines of that the Ork list hasn't changed all that much from pre- to post codex. In and out of itself that might not be so strange but it means that the new units that dropped for Orks are not represented at all on any competitive tables. Surely that's pretty uncommon?

You can argue that intercessors sucked when they came out, but they did change them and they're pretty good now. Meaning they were corrected with points in CA/FAQ.

What other new models did they release for 40k in 2018?
IK - doing super well.
Custodes - predominantly biker & shield captain spam, but doing well overall.

I'm probably forgetting something, but the ork speed freek units not being good even though they're new models is the exception and not the norm IMO (also ork bikes shouldn't cost more than SM ones). If they fixed that and create some sort of parity with other codices when it comes to wargear then that's a real good start.

Even if the end result is still that the lists we saw here are the best builds there still a lot of room for improvement, and closing the gap internally within a codex is more important than raising the highest bar I think.

Most of the primaris stuff saw next to top tournament play until it went through multiple iterations of point drops.
Out of all the new death guard units, only three were showing up at tournaments before price drops.

I think most of the ork buggies do what they are intended to do, so unlike burnas for example, they are not fundamentally flawed units. Price drops could very well put them into competitive territory. Similar DG units have dropped by 20-40 points.

 Jidmah wrote:
Most of the primaris stuff saw next to top tournament play until it went through multiple iterations of point drops.
Out of all the new death guard units, only three were showing up at tournaments before price drops.

I think most of the ork buggies do what they are intended to do, so unlike burnas for example, they are not fundamentally flawed units. Price drops could very well put them into competitive territory. Similar DG units have dropped by 20-40 points.

Agreed, just dropping points on them will be enough, as their statline & wargear has serious potential. I do love that 8/9 wound since they never degrade.

Also, I might've been unclear in my previous post, I don't mean that anything new GW releases gets good rules right off the bat. I merely meant thatafter a while, they all seem to end up being good/great units. So maybe it'll take more than one iteration of point changes but I still feel like they're going to be getting point drops in the FAQ (assuming Orks get anything at all there).

SemperMortis wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
First game using both freebootas and the super shokka and feth me, it's broken.

I felt bad for my OP, as this beast pretty much deleted a unit a turn without breaking a sweat combined with the freeboota +1, more dakka, grot screens and Big killa Boss. Something that hits so hard, every turn I fired it, that cannot be targeted except by snipers, and even then had grot screens to protect it, is something I'd not like to face myself.

I know it has detractors, but from what I've seen today, I'll only be bringing this beast in competitive games, or against people who have wronged me.

I can definitely see the potential of Freebootas, I'd been sceptical, but having played it, that plus 1 to hit is fething brilliant.

anecdotal evidence is anecdotal

The Super Sag averages 7 shots at S7 hitting on 5s with exploding 6s. So you average 2 actual hits and 1.17 rerolls for a .4ish chance of another hit so 2.4 hits. 2.4 hits at S7 vs most vehicles is 1.2 wounds which do D6 damage for 3.5 a turn. so 1.2x3.5 = 4.2 damage, now these numbers are rough averages but that is how it works out. The swingy chances of this weapon is what makes it either a dud or a nuke. Roll high on Shots (10) and 8+ for strength and roll above average for number of hits and suddenly you are dishing out 12-18damage a turn. on the flipside, roll poorly for number of shots and you might get nothing.

I personally love my super SAG because it has a chance to liquify opponents, but its not exactly god caliber and it absolutely isn't on the same level as say a Knight Castellan or the loyal 32, which for some reason have gone several iterations without a nerf.

Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.

My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.

For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.