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2019/03/31 13:18:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/31 14:03:15
2019/03/31 14:36:14
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.
Exactly this. I don't consider these sort of entry level tactics to be particularly difficult either.
As I said earlier, maybe I'm used to playing good opponents or something but this stuff is like clear as day to me. And yes some of my opponents have managed to sneak into CC with him or kill him with a flyer, particularly once those grots are melted.
2019/03/31 14:58:39
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
r_squared wrote: Mathammer is great and all, but I've played it, and it felt broken. With the right setup, and the right strategems you are deleting a unit a turn. If you're using this to take out vehicles and knights then big killa boss is a must to counter those low strength rolls.
My Op is a veteran player, and we were chucking some dice in a beer and pretzels game, but he is fantastic at building some really tricksy strong lists for a variety of armies and we regularly go toe to toe with full on lists and we discussed the Super shocka at length. We decided that the clutch part isn't just the 2d6, it's the fact that it's on a character that really makes it effective. The access to warlord traits is a real bonus, and even with scouts snipers my OP could not touch this killing machine. If the SSAG was on a vehicle, it'd be so so, on a character, in the backfield, correctly screened, it's broken.
For the points? I'd take 2 more SAG Big Meks to complement the SSAG, at 80pts a go, once the Super shokka lights up its first target, you can guarantee your ops target priority is changing.
I'm sure it did feel broken. But that's exactly what anecdotal evidence is - feelings. Unfortunately feelings don't mean much when we have stats.
Come back to us in a week or 2 when you've had that one game where the SSAG just refuses to hit, or when you do hit it's with S2-4 shots, or when your opponent lands all their saves. You'll see where we're coming from.
You're not "deleting a unit a turn" unless you are incredibly lucky every turn.
Re the character protection, I suggest you wait until your OP manages to sneak a few Vindicares into his list. Or any other counter to the SSAG Mek (Deep Strike melee units, flyers).
The average damage for the weapon is incredibly low, even with BKB, but you're just remembering the big hits.
I'm not such a noob that I've not played a shock attack gun before, just not this variant, and not with the backup of codex options.
I'm sorry but I get the feeling that you just want this to be bad and are refusing to acknowledge that outside of a vacuum this is a very good, and useful bit of kit. Big killa boss is clutch, it means that against t8 you are guaranteed to wound on a minimum of 5+, with a greater than average chance of wounding on 4+.
That threat alone with the huge range makes my op really consider every move, much more so than before.
Forcing my opponent to now having to consider how to take out a character, buried in cover surrounded by grot and a counter charge units is a great investment. If you want to deliberately talk it down and not use it, you're only hurting yourself. It's laughable that you're even suggesting deep striking assault units against an ork army, I mean seriously? I'd love an op to try. Any op that can place a flyer in my backfield in a position that could hurt him means that I have fethed up.
As to deleting a unit a turn, any vehicle targeted by the 60" range weapon is either going to be gone, or crippled by this as are any small numbered elite units that happen to stray into LOS. We played it, we saw it happen, I used the strategems to ensure it and my op's decision making changed completely based on his experience of facing it.
I see the maths, but this game is more than stats and maths and all weapons and characters act in support of each other to max out their effectiveness. If you're so blinkered then the loyal 32 have no value and are trash, but I'm pissing against the wind here.
"Feelings" are based on years of gaming experience and knowledge, not wishing and unicorns. I know this is good, I can see how it can cheaply and easily supplement my list and has the potential to tear the heart out of an opponents list with relative ease. I accept that occasionally it may fail, but at 84pts, with maybe 60pts in grot screens, I can live with that.
You want to take my years of gaming experience and knowledge and belittle it as "feelings" then go right ahead, im old and ugly enough to accept that. However, this puppy has found a home on my future competitive lists, and I'm only taking it against people prepared for a tough game in future.
So basically - the SSAG Mek is great against players that don't know how to counter or play against it. Amazing! I need to write that gem down.
Again, to reiterate - even with Big Kills Boss there is absolutely no guarantee you cripple or even hurt a vehicle or elite unit. Congrats though because you've just used your warlord trait and free relic on this 2d6 shots BS5+ (maybe 4+ IF you kill a unit first) platform that has a 2d6str weapon with +1 to wound against certain targets.
Perhaps your meta is friendly or your OP isn't a good player, I don't know and I don't care.
I take the SSAG Mek, of course. Never said I didnt. I didn't claim he was poor either. But he certainly isn't 'broken' and to suggest such is really, really naive and shows the level you're playing at, in my opinion.
No need to be rude. We're debating the use of a cheap but powerful unit, not deeply held personal beliefs after all.
Where I play is both competitive and casual, I've regularly come up against strong lists and good players and I've also been playing 40k for a good few years and can recognise a cheap and effective tool when I see one.
Of course there are counters to a SSAG, just as there are for pretty much any unit in the game, and being dismissive of it just because chaff clearance exists is to miss the point. This is a supplemental, hard hitting character that requires minimal thought or experience to use and a minimal of tactical ability to deploy and play.
Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2019/03/31 15:08:08
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
hollow one wrote: Ah yes that old chestnut. Like how boy spam wasn't good but it topped the London GT.
Ah yes not even playing the same game as rest of the world. Easy to win when you play 2-3 turns but would collapse after that...So when rest of the world plays 5-7 turns as it's supposed that's irrelevant.
Yeah everything can be MADE good by tournament rules. I can make tournament where stompa is 100 pts. Does that mean stompa is suddenly good?
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/03/31 15:12:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.
Granted, but I was trying to counter the assertion that hes just not that good at all because he has some vulnerabilities. In real terms it's an 80 point character unit with some screens. Your OP may chose to clear the chaff of grots, if they're in range, but they will have plenty of other things to worry about with the rest of the 1920 points of ork army available. I welcome a turn where my opponent is killing grots, it's what they're for.
At least we can agree that this is still a very good unit, and if used well can certainly do good work for pretty much any list with minimal investment.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2019/03/31 15:33:24
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
-SNIP-
Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.
I would say it's most likely this. Broken, in every instance I've heard it used, means something is too good all the way to the point of that whatever the actor is, it breaks the game. Meaning the game becomes unplayable, either in actuality or in effect. What you're describing is more akin to very good, top tier etc.
Maybe the word has been "diluted" a bit but I'm pretty that's the etymology of it.
2019/03/31 15:42:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
^ This. The wording you used during the course of the debate always implied that the Super SAG was "too powerful". You said things like "I wouldn't use this unit if I'm playing against my friends" and "it can take out a unit every turn". Literally no one argued that the Super SAG wasn't a good unit. Everyone was just saying "come on, dude. It ain't *that* good."
2019/03/31 15:48:57
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
PiñaColada wrote: I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.
The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.
Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?
Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)
PiñaColada wrote: I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.
The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.
Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?
Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)
Steve did actually have a squad of 15 lootas. His list format is an absolute mess so it is easy to miss some of the stuff he brought lol.
Okay, so it's basically the list I wrote + 15 lootas in the bad moons batallion detachment? That makes sense. Also my headmath was wrong earlier as the list was 1742 points as is, not 1852 as I wrote.
2019/03/31 16:30:21
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Perhaps the use of the word of "Broken" is the trigger here? I don't know how you define "broken", but perhaps it was a bit much to use the word if people think it means it breaks the game. To me, it's just a noun to say that I think that something is very, very good. The SSAG is definitely that, and we should be pleased about that.
I think broken implies that it needs to be 'fixed' aka nerfed.
I agree it is a strong, obvious unit to include. Broken it is not.
2019/03/31 16:41:05
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
PiñaColada wrote: I'm still giddy we got this many top 10 placements. I'm a bit surprised about that, I'll admit. The different ruleset does matter of course but Orks have a lot of good players piloting them ATM so obviously there's upside to the army. I also think a lot of players really like Orks so they break them out now when they're actually good, unlikely many previous editions.
The only thing that is somewhat of a wory for me about these results (which might be a non-issue) is, is there any way of knowing how many rounds every game went? There weren't any chess clocks present AFAIK and nothing sours me on victories more than stalling for victories.
Pampreens list is real interesting to me since it doesn't even have lootas so I'm not even sure what he's using all those CP's on. Super buffin and double shooting the supa SAG every round?
Also Jidmah, should we put up Pampreens list on the first page? EDIT: Actually looks like this list is incomplete, I only tally it up to 1852 points. Did he have some lootas in there as well?
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
Troops: 10x Grots (30)
++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)
Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)
Steve did actually have a squad of 15 lootas. His list format is an absolute mess so it is easy to miss some of the stuff he brought lol.
Okay, so it's basically the list I wrote + 15 lootas in the bad moons batallion detachment? That makes sense. Also my headmath was wrong earlier as the list was 1742 points as is, not 1852 as I wrote.
Yep yep
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
2019/03/31 18:34:07
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: You don't even need Psychic Powers to handle the Super SAG. If your opponent has anything less than, say, 50 Grots shielding him, he's gonna be toast in T1. Maybe T2. Cuz your opponent is gonna use their chaff-clearing units to wipe the Grots (which is stupid easy with their T2 and 6+ Save), both to make the Super SAG vulnerable AND to get that First Blood (if they go first). Then they'll target the Super SAG with their Snipers once his ablative Wounds are gone. It is literally that easy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be clear: I ain't saying the Super SAG is bad. He's very good, in fact. I just don't want folks making him out to be some unstoppable, unit-wiping uber-model when he, quite frankly, isn't.
If anything I think he should have the ability to take a Git Finda and make him BS4+ then It would be an auto-include in most lists.
BTW, that list you posted with the guys army is missing 342pts, someone mentioned he had 15 lootas as well, put those in and you are still missing 87pts. I wonder if he had 2 Detachments of 10 and something else as a minor buff because that would make it closer to 2,000pts.
Either way, it just accentuates the fact that the ork army is a 1 trick pony right now. Loota bomb with a SSAG if you want to spend the CP on it. I am guessing that guy just jumped Grot units around the field capping objectives and used his loota bomb and SSAG to kill anything trying to kill the grotz. Not a bad strategy, but remove the loota bomb and you will quickly run out of grotz.
On a related note, my normal opponents have finally figured out how to easily kill a Loota bomb. Focus fire the 60-90 grotz down first. Why the grotz first? Because when you target the lootas you have to wound based on a T4 model, when you focus fire the grotz first your average Bolter is wounding on a 2+, so you have a significantly better chance to wound. 30 bolter hits vs Loota's with grot shields active = 15 wounds and 15 dead Grotz (no armor allowed) 30 Bolter hits vs Grotz = 25 wounds 6+ saves allowed = 22ish dead Grotz. Simple math but very important.
Another normal guy I play against brings his Eldar bikes into play and shoots a hole in my grot shields turn 1 and assaults them either with the bikes turn 1 or assaults the grot shields and moves into B2B to stop me from shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: If anything I think he should have the ability to take a Git Finda and make him BS4+ then It would be an auto-include in most lists.
Um generally autoinclude means something is too good. So if something becomes autoinclude by upgrade odds are that upgrade is too good.
On a related note, my normal opponents have finally figured out how to easily kill a Loota bomb. Focus fire the 60-90 grotz down first. Why the grotz first? Because when you target the lootas you have to wound based on a T4 model, when you focus fire the grotz first your average Bolter is wounding on a 2+, so you have a significantly better chance to wound. 30 bolter hits vs Loota's with grot shields active = 15 wounds and 15 dead Grotz (no armor allowed) 30 Bolter hits vs Grotz = 25 wounds 6+ saves allowed = 22ish dead Grotz. Simple math but very important.
Actually 30 bolter hits would be 12.5 grots and 2.5 lootas dead. But yeah that's what people generally do here as well.
Another normal guy I play against brings his Eldar bikes into play and shoots a hole in my grot shields turn 1 and assaults them either with the bikes turn 1 or assaults the grot shields and moves into B2B to stop me from shooting.
That's why you really need 30 strong unit(or two). That makes it BIT harder to do that. With 10 strong units you need multiple layers of those on multiple directions. But that's def another good loota star clearer.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/03/31 19:33:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.
For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.
2019/03/31 22:00:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Grots without a runtherd just run away like Flandarz said every time. But a runtherder is so ridiculously overpriced...better off taking another 2x10 grots anyway.
The +1 to hit if greater than 20 means nothing for them.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/03/31 23:20:32
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.
For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.
How do you get 1d6+16 lost from 10 Casualties?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2019/03/31 23:25:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Sorry. My mistake. Shoulda been 1d6+6. So, on average, if you lose 10 Grots from shooting, you'll lose another 9-10 from Morale, in the 30 Squad. In the 3x10 Squads, you'll lose... 8-9 on the (1d6-1)x3? Still better off with the multiple squads.
Course, the max and min loses are a lot more varied. Minimum of 7 on the 30 Squad, with a maximum or 12. Minimum of 0 on the 10 Squad, with a maximum of 15.
2019/03/31 23:40:19
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: Sorry. My mistake. Shoulda been 1d6+6. So, on average, if you lose 10 Grots from shooting, you'll lose another 9-10 from Morale, in the 30 Squad. In the 3x10 Squads, you'll lose... 8-9 on the (1d6-1)x3? Still better off with the multiple squads.
Course, the max and min loses are a lot more varied. Minimum of 7 on the 30 Squad, with a maximum or 12. Minimum of 0 on the 10 Squad, with a maximum of 15.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2019/04/01 01:25:33
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.
2019/04/01 03:44:26
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
cody.d. wrote: A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.
They wouldnt benefit from his Great WAAAHGH rule since it only benefits Orks Infantry which grots are not.
cody.d. wrote: A random, silly and meme thought. How many 30grot units do yo think you could get into range of Gazzy? Just to dick around with his Waaagh rule and breakin' heads.
They wouldnt benefit from his Great WAAAHGH rule since it only benefits Orks Infantry which grots are not.
Gretchin are 100% ORK INFANTRY and will benefit from the Great Waaagh! rule. You're thinking of Stratagems that don't affect Gretchin.
2019/04/01 03:54:56
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: I usually take Grots in units of 10, just because Morale is such a huge problem for them. They don't get Mob Rule, so you can start losing a lot of models to Morale very quickly in the bigger groups. The smaller ones also force your opponent to spread their fire between them, which could mean some wasted Wounds.
For example, the difference between 3 10-Grot Squads and 1 30-Grot Squad: Let's say the opponent fires 30 shots, with a 4+ BS. He's gonna land 15, and like 10.5 (let's round down to 10) are gonna pass Wounds and Saves. If he fired them all at the 30-Grot Squad, you're down to 20 Grots, and (after Morale), you're gonna lose 1d6+16 more. If he split fire (10/10/10) between the three Squads, each will have about 7 Grots left. That's 1d6-1 lost in each Squad, meaning you're guaranteed to have Grots left after Morale, while you could lose all of them in the 30-Grot Squad.
Well with 30 strong unit(s) you obviously take the runtherd if you don't have warboss nearby.
Benefit of 30 strong is ability to take casualties where ever you need. Handy against T1 chargers, handy against flyers etc. Otherwise flier flies to flank, enemy shoots with chaff clearers toward the side where flier is and then the grots on other side are useless for grot shields.
Flip side of course is cost of runtherd. But 10 strong units are lot easier to ignore for grot screen than 30 strong where you can do casualty removal shenigans ensuring that even when you have 4 grots left you have 360 angle more or less covered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 05:37:56
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/04/01 09:13:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Has anyone where ever used the Battlewagon with supa kannon from forgeworld this edition?
I love that model but don't own it (itchy buying fingers). As of right now it's pretty bad ruleswise but -if- it did get buffs it might be alright. Then there are 3 different buffs that are all somewhat likely IMO.
1, Simply drop the battlewagon cost to the same as the one in the codex, so 40 points cheaper
2, Make the supa kannon BS4+ since it's grots firing it
3, Make us able to take the supa kannon on a gunwagon platform instead
So out of those 3 options I'd say number 1 is most likely since that really should happen. Would that be enough though? Realistically speaking that same point reduction should be there for #2 and # would use the gunwagon cost. Both of those would make it interesting but #1 might a least make it okay?
What do y'all reckon?
2019/04/01 09:27:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Personally I would be tempted to just use it as count as gunwagon with killa kannon. with periscope rule it's almost same anyway. damage 2 vs damage 3 but almost 40 pts cheaper.
If it got 40 pts discount...Well then why take gunwagon? Extra blip of damage, always 2d6 shots rather than when moving half and 4 pts cheaper! So 40 pts price reduction is flat out out of question UNLESS gunwagon gets something to help. 155 pts vs 151 for worse gun and rules? Nope. However obviously now it's too high price but something like 165 or so? Assuming gunwagon does not get price drop. IF it does then this should of course follow suit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 09:28:59
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/04/01 09:33:32
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Well the 40 points is simply from that according to forgeworld a battlewagon is still 161 points and not 121 like the ork codex, so the 40 point reduction would just be parity between FW Index and Ork Codex.
Yes, that would put the gunwagon in a weird position but that's almost entirely due to the fact that the gunwagon is pretty terrible for the price IMO.
Edit: But the main difference between the killkannon gunwagon and supa kannon battlewagon is, aside from damage 3, the range. 24" is just so underwhelming. 60" could help hit those backline targets I can't charge. And flat 3 damage is just amazing against a plethora of targets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 09:35:18
2019/04/01 09:45:36
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
PiñaColada wrote: Well the 40 points is simply from that according to forgeworld a battlewagon is still 161 points and not 121 like the ork codex, so the 40 point reduction would just be parity between FW Index and Ork Codex.
Yes, that would put the gunwagon in a weird position but that's almost entirely due to the fact that the gunwagon is pretty terrible for the price IMO.
Edit: But the main difference between the killkannon gunwagon and supa kannon battlewagon is, aside from damage 3, the range. 24" is just so underwhelming. 60" could help hit those backline targets I can't charge. And flat 3 damage is just amazing against a plethora of targets.
You realize the range just makes case of flat out 40 pts drop is out of the question? 4 pts less, you get more range, more damage, more shots even when moving beyond half the speed...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 09:45:43
Any 
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
