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Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Well, yes. Obviously if that point reduction were to happen in a vacuum it'd be super strange (though it is forgeworld after all )

But for the sake of argument, assume the 20 point premium a gunwagon pays over a normal battlewagon also disappears (which it probably should). Because I'm assuming no-one really plays gunwagons right now anyways, but nevermind those for a second. Say the supa-kannon batlewagon gets a 40 points reduction, would it then be worth it you think?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Added Steven's list to the first post, thanks to PinaColada for providing it.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Jidmah wrote:
Added Steven's list to the first post, thanks to PinaColada for providing it.
Does anyone yet know if he burned through those CP every game? that's what 25CP. I'd understand if he was able to but man that's a lot
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I don't see why he wouldn't. Lootas and the SAG should be able to go through all of them by turn 3.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Apparently Adepticon forces you to spend pre-game CPs the same way throughout the tournament, so he always started with 20CP evidently.

I'm guessing -1 for supa SAG, -1 for that detachment, -2 to deepstrike a boyz blob and an additional -1 somewhere else.

Like Jidmah said though, spending 20CP for Orks ain't tough, especially with both a supa SAG and lootas. That's 6CP a turn on just them (not including grot shields). Then fighting twice with orks in CC, maybe interrupt combat etc.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






He also has a klaw boss and a bunch of boyz, so orks is never beaten and green tide are probably used during most of his games as well. He can also use wreckers with his deff skulls detachment.

We aren't short on stratagems which provide great value and the more stratagems you use to kill stuff in the first few rounds, the less stuff is shooting back at you later.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

i own a supakannon and i always have abysmal luck with the dang thing.
I was hoping when i got kultures for it i'd start hitting things reliably. Nope. Still only actually do any real damage once a game it feels like, either because i keep rolling 2-3 freaking shots or my luck of 2+s rolls get in the way (i wound on a 2+! rolls 4 1s out of 5 dice....)
Statistically its....ok. Definitely overpriced. Gunwagon just shouldnt exist in the first place, battlewagons have never been taken for their Big Gun so why would i willingly shaft my occupants to fire it twice? If i wanted a "gun wagon" i'd take a regular wagon without the 'ard case, a kannon, and 15 shooty things inside.
Supakannon wagon only allows 6 dudes inside but its also opentopped by default (why that thing has access to 'ard case is beyond me...). So its hilarious to have it sitting next to your SAG mek and have the SAG mek just book it inside for an escape vector if needed, which actually made me win one game because i denied a last minute Slay the Warlord by doing that lol. Plus the SAG mek can repair it so double reasons to have them near each other.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Vineheart01 wrote:
i own a supakannon and i always have abysmal luck with the dang thing.
I was hoping when i got kultures for it i'd start hitting things reliably. Nope. Still only actually do any real damage once a game it feels like, either because i keep rolling 2-3 freaking shots or my luck of 2+s rolls get in the way (i wound on a 2+! rolls 4 1s out of 5 dice....)
Statistically its....ok. Definitely overpriced. Gunwagon just shouldnt exist in the first place, battlewagons have never been taken for their Big Gun so why would i willingly shaft my occupants to fire it twice? If i wanted a "gun wagon" i'd take a regular wagon without the 'ard case, a kannon, and 15 shooty things inside.
Supakannon wagon only allows 6 dudes inside but its also opentopped by default (why that thing has access to 'ard case is beyond me...). So its hilarious to have it sitting next to your SAG mek and have the SAG mek just book it inside for an escape vector if needed, which actually made me win one game because i denied a last minute Slay the Warlord by doing that lol. Plus the SAG mek can repair it so double reasons to have them near each other.


For this reason, I really love the change to the Morkanaut's kustom mega zappa. 3d3 shots raises the minimum number of shots while lowering the max.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Yeah, like i tell my roommate all the time i wish D6 didnt exist for determining weapon stats.
It should all be D3, allow for randomness but remove the extremes. Weapons that fire D6 are supposed to represent a large blast template....you mean to tell me that unless you were literally shooting 1 model a large blast only hit once? I cant recall ever barely clipping a unit, i either whiffed entirely or landed 3+ hits. Not to mention factoring in BS now instead of scatter means less hits in general, even for BS3+ guys.
Would help in so many situations if all D6 went to 2D3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 15:39:14


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I know I'm bringing us back around to the SSAG but it is definitely in the category of good not OP.

I'll post my example of it's use in my last 2 games, last weekend.

Game one it rolled double 1's for strength 2 turns in a row. with around 4 to 5 shots each time. Maybe that's just me getting diced but man it hurt. failed to wound anything.

Now the more memorable. I shot at the Swarmlord. Rolled 11 for S and 11 for number of shots. 4 hits and 2 additional hits from DDD. This caused 8 mortal wounds. wounded 4 of the rest of the shots. he fails 2 invulns and removes him since I didn't even need to roll damage. 7 more would have been average.

So yeah definitely remember that game and so does my opponent. He will plan around that as the first game all he had to do was avoid it and it did nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 16:18:59


 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

I ran into the same thing last two games, but reversed. First game, the SSAG was doing real good. Last game, he barely did anything.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I also found that the morkanaut does really well shooting at large targets and has been pretty consistent. I've been using more dakka on it vs the SSAG. I do find with the way weapons are declared He wastes a lot of shots. I don't want to under shoot a unit and leave it alive so usually the rokkits or the KMB get wasted. He sniped a 100% heathly stonecrusher in overwatch with his shooting.

The only gripe is that across the game I think he put about a 3rd maybe more of his own wounds onto himself. if he's in the specialist and shoots twice and opponent has -1 then he can do 2 a shooting phase.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Do note that the "Gets Hot" rule for the Morkanaut's gun is "1 or more" not "each"
He can lose 2 wounds because he has a random KMB as well, but he can never lose more than 2 in a single turn. I actually rarely suffer from it thanks to bad moonz reroll.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Vineheart01 wrote:
Do note that the "Gets Hot" rule for the Morkanaut's gun is "1 or more" not "each"
He can lose 2 wounds because he has a random KMB as well, but he can never lose more than 2 in a single turn. I actually rarely suffer from it thanks to bad moonz reroll.


With the shoot twice strategem (or shoot again, whatever) isn't there another opportunity to have "1 or more" get hot after the previous shooting was resolved?
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

True, spaced that out for a moment.
Still thats pretty bad luck to lose that many wounds to it.
Unless you arent using Bad Moonz or Deathskullz because statistically he will roll 1 each time he fires then its fairly likely.
I have a morkanaut in most of my lists as bad moonz and i lose maybe 1 a game. Granted, not using the shoot again strat on him every time.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in au
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Thinking about the grot tide some more. And correct me if i'm wrong but gretchin can benefit from the snakebite Monster Hunter strat since it targets the 10+ wound model then modifies the roll of anything that targets it. A way to make mekguns a touch more brutal perhaps? Or just let the 300 grot army wound on 5s.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Speaking of gretchin and strategums, can gretchin units use grot shield?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Coh Magnussen wrote:
Speaking of gretchin and strategums, can gretchin units use grot shield?
The stratagem explicitly excludes "units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN models".
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I was able to play a game against a friend of mine today, he has officially decided that he SSAG is crap..... (BTW this was Orkz Vs Orkz) He took a SSAG and I didn't for the first time in awhile. His SSAG survived to turn 4 but never got above S6 and never had more then 8 shots. He managed to strip my Morkanaut of 4 wounds the entire game and that was me making bad saving throws for my KFF.

On the flipside, I mulched his entire Nob biker mob and 2 bands of Warbikers in 2 turns with my Loota blob of 20 lootas

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in no
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






Isn't that the typical orks statistics?
Either we table people, either we are blown to bitz?
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




hey guys,

I am new to the orks. Is it possible to build an elite list (evil sunz?) which can be competitive ?

Thank you!
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





HeavenLord wrote:
hey guys,

I am new to the orks. Is it possible to build an elite list (evil sunz?) which can be competitive ?

Thank you!


Well 20-30 meganobz lists seems to have done okayish so that could be start. Evil sun works nicely with meganobz as well(funnily enough with evil suns the slower units like the trait more than fast units like buggies...). Da jump and charge needing 8" is pretty decent(78% chance).

Nobz are also okayish. Twice the points vs boyz but 4+ and 2 wounds vs 6+ and 1 wound. Less attacks but S5 is nice. Again works nicely coming out of da jump(I have 10 with 6 big choppas and choppa and 4 with twin choppas. Makes mincemeat out of lots of things). Gorkanauts work nicely from tellyporta as well.

You do need some mass as well to fuel at least 2 battallions though and for shooty elements either deathskull, badmoon(crowd favourite) or freebootas would be better.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.

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2000
 
   
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Dakka Veteran





 G00fySmiley wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.


right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 15:24:21


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.


right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.


I mean.. taking 3 2d6 SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6 dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)

as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.

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Dakka Veteran





 G00fySmiley wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.


right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.


I mean.. taking 3 2d6 SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6 dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)

as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.


The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 16:31:45


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.


right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.


I mean.. taking 3 2d6 SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6 dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)

as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.


The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.


against a Carnifex average rolls means 240 points concentrating thier fire likely just kills a 80 point model with the 3rd shot. on a space marine dread same result, 240 points shoots and kills 130 points though if he popped smoke he likely lives. There could be some middle ground here, but as a mostly anti tank gun a SAG is no more points efficient than a heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons. it just has character protection for less average dmg output

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".


When every stat is randomized no wonder.

Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.


I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6 dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.


right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.


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So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.


I mean.. taking 3 2d6 SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6 dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)

as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.


The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.


against a Carnifex average rolls means 240 points concentrating thier fire likely just kills a 80 point model with the 3rd shot. on a space marine dread same result, 240 points shoots and kills 130 points though if he popped smoke he likely lives. There could be some middle ground here, but as a mostly anti tank gun a SAG is no more points efficient than a heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons. it just has character protection for less average dmg output


Well I used Badmoons as a template since it's more difficult to calculate in the Deathskulls trait. but at average S7 with 2d6 hits you will be averaging 5.69 Damage after DDD. again thats average. This doesnt factor having a deathskulls trait for rerolling a to hit, to wound or a damage roll. Deathskulls was also found to put out more damage then badmoons but based on these averages 2 would kill 1 carnifex and the third would be free to shoot another one. Carnifexes are also not 80 points if I recall they come out to roughly 100 after giving them weapons some variants may be more. I did just want to reiterate the weapon itself at 2d6 would not be OP but having access to 3 of them, I would probably take this option every game. That's the sign of a very good unit but it may be too much for typical games. you would definitely see it on the competitive circuits.
   
 
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