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2019/05/03 21:05:03
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Also less stratagem efficiency. It will cost you 12 CP to deep strike them rather than 4. Morale takes issue, you lose +1 attack, harder to coordinate attacks as some will reach and some won't. Endless tide and fight 2nd time will become useless piece of you know what.
Oh and tank busta bombs are same. 1 per 10. You get 3 for 30, 3 for 3 squads of 10.
Mob up is also once per unit so you won't mob up them all game(and then you are losing death skull rerolls). And btw opponent needs to kill just 1 model per unit and no more mob up...And that's not too hard with split fires.
Only sense in this is death skull rerolls so load up on rokkits then at least. And forget mob up. Whole goal is those rerolls so keep 'em!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 21:05:40
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/05/03 21:13:04
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
So I finally finished reading the thread and I've gotta say it was worth the read.
Great effort by Jidmah and all the others who contributed, not just to the first post but the conversation.
Anyway, I've been tinkering with a freebooterz list for a while and wouldn't mind some input.
Boyz [11 PL, 225pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
BoneBreaker [9 PL, 179pts]: 4x Big Shoota, Deff Rolla
BoneBreaker [9 PL, 179pts]: 4x Big Shoota, Deff Rolla
BoneBreaker [9 PL, 179pts]: 4x Big Shoota, Deff Rolla
++ Total: [98 PL, 9CP, 1999pts] ++
The 2 things I'm not sure of are the lone squad of Boyz and the morkanaught. I might swap out the Mork for a second gork but I have no idea what to do with the Boyz. I'm worried they'll get shot off the board early because they are my only infantry.
Any help would be much appreciated!
2019/05/03 22:27:51
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Tankbusta bombs are indeed grenades, i dont even bother having more than 1 model marked as a tankbusta carrier.
The problem with running 6x10 boyz is they lose the morale bonus from Mob Rule, since it only shares between units not increases in value. And thats pretty much the only thing keeping them from running away from a stiff breeze.
Not to mention -1 attack for being less than 20 strong.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/05/04 12:57:32
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Yup, which is why when idiots were saying "Yeah boyz went up in price but you can take a tankbusta bomb which was 10pts so it works out!" i was pointing out that exact thing, you an only use 1 per squad. Boyz got nerfed by themselves in our codex, you can argue Kulture until you are blue in the face, it won't change the fact that ork boyz got a points increase when basically no other faction's infantry did, and the tankbusta bomb argument was dumb 6 months ago. With the change to Mob Up I really don't see orkz hitting the top tables anymore. In fact, with all the nerfs handed out it looks to me like the Eldar Flyers list is going to be king of the battle field again.
To be fair, this argument is incredibly similar to the argument from like 6 months ago. Ie: "Orkz aren't good!" Which is just as wrong then as it is now. The loss of Mobbing Up Lootas *does* suck, but we ended up getting a significant buff to our SAGs and SSAGs, and it ain't like Lootas are garbage now or something.
2019/05/04 18:22:38
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
You can use a 1 cp strategem to throw those 3 tankbusta bombz if you wish
Anywayz, back to boyz. It seems boyz are not mandatory for a good ork list. Even the 30 blob might not be worth it in larger games. Though it does seem to be mandatory for 1500 and below. I'd still stick to 1 squad of 30 boyz. The opponents focus on greentide too much. Means grots get more opportunities to score and win us games.
2019/05/04 20:19:38
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: To be fair, this argument is incredibly similar to the argument from like 6 months ago. Ie: "Orkz aren't good!" Which is just as wrong then as it is now. The loss of Mobbing Up Lootas *does* suck, but we ended up getting a significant buff to our SAGs and SSAGs, and it ain't like Lootas are garbage now or something.
I disagree, without sinking CP into them, Lootas are trash. They die turn 1 and if they don't they only average about 6 damage a turn to a T7 vehicle with a 3+ save. Putting them in 20-25 Loota squads was worth it because you could then get more bang for your buck with the stratagems you needed to use to keep them alive and killing targets longer then turn 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: You can use a 1 cp strategem to throw those 3 tankbusta bombz if you wish
Anywayz, back to boyz. It seems boyz are not mandatory for a good ork list. Even the 30 blob might not be worth it in larger games. Though it does seem to be mandatory for 1500 and below. I'd still stick to 1 squad of 30 boyz. The opponents focus on greentide too much. Means grots get more opportunities to score and win us games.
LOL, 1CP to chuck grenades from a boyz squad, and I believe its limited to 10 grenades as well right? otherwise 30 boyz = 27 D6 shots and a couple tankbusta bombs.
As for boyz, its a mixed bag, you can flood the field with cheap grots in 10man squads and hope to win on points or you can do what I do, field 3-4 full mobz of boyz, put two in reserve and deep strike them along with "Da Jump" turn 2 and have 90boyz materialize wherever you need them most. I used to team that up with my Loota bomb to kill tau gun lines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/04 20:21:44
The difference between 15 Lootas and 25 Lootas, both shooting that same T7, 3+ Save vehicle is like 2 Damage, buddy. So, those 2 points of damage each time they shoot is the difference between literally "must take" and "trash" to you? Ok.
2019/05/04 20:48:02
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: The difference between 15 Lootas and 25 Lootas, both shooting that same T7, 3+ Save vehicle is like 2 Damage, buddy. So, those 2 points of damage each time they shoot is the difference between literally "must take" and "trash" to you? Ok.
15 lootas = 6 dmg 25 lootas = 10 dmg
difference is 4 or another nice way to put it, 40% more dmg. And more importantly, those other 10 lootas can now be protected by the same Grot shields that the 15 are being protected by so you don't have to just piss away 10 lootas hiding in cover with 5+ saves. If GW really wanted to make lootas worth 17pts they need to be upgraded to 4+ armor, or give them a 2pt reduction and give them 5+. But a 17pt model with T4, 1 wound and a 6+ save is just ridiculous.
More Stikkbombs isnt that bad if its slugga boyz since the slugga isnt gonna do much anyway so might as well trade it for D6 S3 attacks.
Though problem is they probably advanced, and you cant chuck a grenade if you advance (why? no idea, i think they should be throwable if you run but they arent)
Heck i rarely even get in range to throw that tankbusta bomb. 6" away is pretty difficult if i didnt JUST finished an assault against something, as im usually charging 8" away and make it more often than not (thanks 'Ere We Go!). I think ive actually thrown a tankbusta bomb....6 times in about 20 games? lol
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/05/05 01:09:06
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
DaisyWondercow wrote: Typically, I bring 60 boyz in my lists (I know, rookie numbers, stick with me), in two groups of 30. However, I'm wondering if there might be advantages to doing 6 groups of 10 and getting that sweet, sweet Brigade bonus. Groups of 10 mean more nobz (awesome), more tankbusta bombs (awesome), more DeffSkull rerolls, and less vulnerability to certain anti-infantry weapons like gatling canons. Downsides, morale takes a bit of a hit, you don't get the +1A, and you can't jump as easily.
With the oodles of CP, you could comfortably use Mob Up each round on surviving units. I think this "consolidating as they run down the field" could be an interesting usage of Mob Up, rather than the usual "grab a buddy before I throw strategems/powers at you". Has anyone tried this configuration? Any lessons learned?
Why not use jobs?
They get obsec via deffskulls and fit neatly into transports of any size. They don't care about Green Tide either.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2019/05/05 01:22:25
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Hey guys, I've got some questions about use of Mek Gunz. Is a (very) Mek Gun heavy 650pt Patrol list viable? If so is it rude? I'm just monkeying about in Battlescribe but a dozen Smasha's with a SSAG big mek (with Big Killa Boss), a pair of mini-Mek's and some grots to fill out the troop slots comes in at about 650.
Also, how often do you guys find a Mek Gun to be targetable because it's krew aren't hidden but it can't shoot back since LOS/range for it's shots must be measured from the Gun proper?
2019/05/05 02:17:23
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
But, I honestly don't have as many issues with people only being able to target the Crew, but the Gun not finding LoS. The Gun is MUCH larger than the Crew. With some good placement, it's easy to hide those Crew behind the Gun itself.
2019/05/05 02:26:10
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
What does it matter? Gun and crew are one model. You draw LOS to and from from either and you don't shoot just crew. The crew are literally just taking space on board.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/05/05 02:29:24
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Unfortunately, no. Mek Gunz specify that LOS and Range has to be drawn from the Gun, not the Krew. You could try to RAW it that, since the Gun and Krew are considered 1 model, that you can draw from the Krew, but you'd be seen as a TFG by pretty much anyone you play with.
For clarification, this is the rule:
Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated
as a single model for all rules purposes. The krew must
remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be
targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility
of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the
Mek Gun, not the krew.
2019/05/05 18:06:31
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Went to competive tournament. 2k, no flowchart. Organizer ruled SSAG to work more like it worked before(and I can actually see the point. Pretty much every other unit rolls random stats after target selection. Why sag suddenly is sole snowflake?). No big deal though. Such a rare case it would help especially with my build that no big deal. Oh and tournament also said screw you to the deployment zone FAQ so in the scenanario where we deploy on corners any of the 4 corners was valid choise. Oh and something that I ran into mid tournament though actually tournament pack had mention of it...NO DETACHMENT AMOUNT LIMITATION! Sure pack said no detachment restrictions but somehow I read that to mean no additional to the standard max 3. Well not that it really matters for orks here as HQ tax becomes issue. Oh and I ran out of grots
Anyway 3 battallions. Evil sun with 2x30 boyz, 10 grots, warboss, weirdboy. Death skull with 3x10 boyz, ssag, weirdboy. evil sun with badruk, weirdboy, 30 boyx, 2x30 grots, runtherd. and 4 smasha gun, 3 traktor kannon and kmk.
First up toooooons of IG. 3 tank commanders, several infantry squad, 3x3 mortars, wyvern, basilisk, crusader, 2 helverin.
Went first. Had to move both lootas and SSAG to get LOS. Opted ssag for more dakka. Alas made mistake and fired at crusader for 20 wounds but all this meant was 1 CP spent each turn to shoot at full strength. Never got killing blow. He went out of LOS to ssag and cleared mek guns fast(that relic battle cannon sucks). Once got close(already rolled damage) but 4++ saved from traktor kannon.
Turn 2 caused 9 wounds to 2 russ commander but not vs relic one(out of LOS). Turn 3 2 wounds to basilisk and then warboss went and killed it. But after his turn 3 all I had left was weirdboy. Bad moon boyz were killed twice.
Opponent thought I should have brought evil suns on t2 but deep strike screen was so far I could charge vs something big on t4 anyway and no units close to each other for trapping either.
Game 2. Vs IG battallion+deathwatch battallion+scion battallion+knight aux(this is where I found out about no detachment limit...). 3 squads of 10 deathwatch guys, jump pack guy, 3x5 scion troops, couple AM squads, 3x3 mortars, crusader.
Game of invulnerable knight. He goes first, does very little(knight fired everything vs 6 grots. Moral victory right here! Albeit that was 2 vp and 1 kill point kill so not completely pointless...but that was only unit that died(he did that precisely to kill 1 unit for maelstrom card + first strike + kill point). My turn. Very little moving. I sent bad moon boyz to charge vs 2 AM squad. Lootas cleared 5 AM infantry from 2 squads(1 shot per loota sucks. Twice...). Mek guns cleared more of them so 4 and 1 left after morale rolls. SSAG fired at crusader(only vehicle on board). First some pittiful and 2 wounds. He saves both with 4++. Then 11 S11 shots. YEY! 4 hits...drat. Well 4d3 mortals gives 6. He triggers 5++ vs mortals and...saves 3. Drat. Well 4 inv saves. 1 fail. And free reroll from warlord saves that...
What? 11 S11 shots and I get measely 3 wounds total...Mek guns cause at least 8 more despite command reroll saving yet another.
That could have gone better.
T2 scion squads(2) drop nearby mek guns. He hopes to charge 1 to get into objective. Plan fails. He kills very little except bad moons that just all die.
My turn. Da jump to lootas fail. This was big. I was planning to da jump them to see 10 deathwatch guy. So now the 2 evil sun squads had gone there(backups). Shooting. SSAG fails to do much vs the knight. 4 rounds, the thing was still going strong. Mek guns had no more LOS. Lootas vaporized scions and 2 AM squads and scion commander. Evil suns charged vs deathwatch. One was stopped in track by stratagem but luckily that's vs 1 unit only so second made it and after morale all 9 were dead. Crucially this gave me 6th kill for turn so got 5vp card completed!
T3. He blew out the wounded evil sun unit completely and charged the other unit. Crucially he didn't kill enough to green tide them.
My turn. Evil sun boyz fall back and SSAG fires again....And the damn knight is STILL STANDING! 6 rounds and the damn thing was still standing. Mek guns failed also. Lootas da jump failed as well. Sigh. Well did vaporize one deathwatch squad badly. Warboss charged them and jump pack captain trying to kill captain. 4 wounds. 3 saves on 4++...And killed in return. Sigh.
T4. Last turn. He killed evil suns for good. Not much else. My turn. Badruk da jumped to hopefully kill his deathwatch warlord but failed utterly. SSAG...With big game hunter on line...Failed to cause even wound and the knight survived 2 hits from smasha gun so 6 wound left it was standing still...
Bleargh. Well 13-7 win anyway. I got more cards. Eternal war progressive objective scoring was about dead even.
Game 3. Ad mech of doom. 3x3 some tracked guys with S6 -2 dd6 vs vehicle 2 shot weapons, 6 or 9 more of them. Several plasma bots, cawl, 3 onagers, assasin, something else. He got 1st turn. I tried to deploy back but 42"+move and no issue. After his 1st turn all mek guns, over half bad moon grots and 12 lootas dead. I just rolled for SSAG for fun getting exact 4 wounds to one. I called it quits. Wasn't going to make a dent and he would just blow me up with ease. Better use of time go home early.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/05/05 20:31:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Emicrania wrote: That is why my mek gunz have no crew, they are basically useless
Yeah, outside of tournies, I just play them without the corresponding grots now. Easier to deploy and the functional difference is so minuscule that unless you're playing with really big meta gamers that it's not a big deal. Especially when it comes to having lists with large batteries of them.
2019/05/05 20:47:45
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
My Mek Gunz are usually stationary for the whole match, so I don't mind setting up the Krew too. But it *does* make a difference. That's 5 square inches per Gun (more or less) you save when you don't deploy them. If you only got a few (and aren't running a Green Tide), it's probably negligible. But it can be a lot of saved space when you got 6. Basically enough space for a full Boy Mob.
That said, if you play casual, and your opponent is fine with it (any time you ever from RAW, check with your opponent beforehand), then you do you.
2019/05/05 22:02:08
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
i mean, if you want to stop messing with krew since they do nothing and must be within 1" so not like you can conga-line them, just get a wide enough base for the gun to be in the center and all krew around it. Bam, one thing to put down.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/05/05 22:44:34
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
tneva82 wrote: That is actually notably difference in cramming 12+ mek guns with crew vs no crew...The foot print increases quite a lot.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, that's why I mentioned tournies or any other competitive game, I would include the models. But with my friends, who are pretty casual, we just let it slide for ease of play. Especially when it comes to placement on terrain sometimes.
2019/05/06 01:18:50
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
flandarz wrote: Fair enough. Still seems like a huge jump from 'must take' to 'trash' for 4 damage each time they shoot.
right, but now amplify that with Shooting again stratagem. That 4 damage just turned into 8. That is a HUGE difference and the main point I was making with the stratagems now being watered down.
Well, assuming you still take 25 Lootas, just divided into 2 groups (15 and 10), then even with shoot again, you're missing out on 4 damage. I'm not saying they aren't worse than they were. Just that it's probably an exaggeration to claim they're "garbage" now. I was never big on Lootas anyway, but compared to a Stompa (or really anything in the Yellow to Red tiers in the OP), they still have the ability to be... well, competitive. You just can't base your entire strategy around them anymore.
2019/05/06 02:57:55
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Yeah, I understand that. But the implication is you're dropping them from top tier to the same level as the Squigbuggy and Stompa. The "garbage" tier. Which I think is an over exaggeration as to how much they've been nerfed. At worst, I'd put them in the same tier as Flash Gitz (Blue). A little over half the cost, with a worse Save and slightly worse weapon, but longer range. Basically: I think they went from "you can base an entire winning strategy around this unit" to "bring these guys along for dealing with light vehicles and elite infantry".
2019/05/06 10:37:28
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
I just remembered that I have a big tournament at the end of the month, would be legal to put the gunz on a large base instead of using the grots?
I got a gakload of stuff to paint and two exams this month already...
2019/05/06 10:52:48
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread (8th edition codex post FAQ)
Depends on tournament/opponents. It solves foot print issue BUT it could still give you slight advantage so some might protest...Then again those would probably complain about my trukk+mek gun conversions as well as the shape isn't 100% identical with official.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
difference is 4 or another nice way to put it, 40% more 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
