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Ahhh gotcha. Good to know so i can avoid that scenario.

Mind you though that if transport(say bonebreaka) charges up and gets destroyed the ENEMY unit CAN attack the unit that disembarked unit with fight again stratagem or by still not have attacked provided they have enemy unit within 1"(can't be disembarked as that can't come within 1" enemy. However enemy can then pile in into the disembarked squad and attack).

thats literally the opposite what was just stated, and i looked up the rule just to be sure
In the Fight Phase rules under Choose Targets it says "Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units they charged in the previous phase"

No, they cannot even if they never got to swing because like stated earlier units embarked do not exist and thus cannot be the target of a charge.
The embarked unit can totally swing if someone is dumb enough to consolidate into them, since they did not charge and thus ignore that restriction.

He is saying if YOU charge with a transport and it dies, the enemy can attack your squad that falls out of the tranport.

Ah, right, nvm me

Has anyone had any success with big blobs of MANZ? Shame about the recent FAQ because the thought of 2 x 10 MANZ mobbing up, getting warpath and then Da Jump is anything but settle. Not sure what can kill 60 wounds with a 2+ before it assaults you.

I have quite a lot of MANZ and I am thinking the best way to run them is either Evil Sunz or Freebootaz (benefiting from the +1 to hit Kultur ability).

 Elfric wrote:
Has anyone had any success with big blobs of MANZ? Shame about the recent FAQ because the thought of 2 x 10 MANZ mobbing up, getting warpath and then Da Jump is anything but settle. Not sure what can kill 60 wounds with a 2+ before it assaults you.

I have quite a lot of MANZ and I am thinking the best way to run them is either Evil Sunz or Freebootaz (benefiting from the +1 to hit Kultur ability).

They have very fat bases, so you will rarely get more than 5-7 into combat. If the enemy hides in ruins 3nd floor you are lucky to get 3 MANZ into combat. Their low speed is also an issue if you fail the initial charge. So there was not much point mpbbing them up anyways.

Except with one big mob you could have thrown 20 of them other side of the board with +1A each and engage multiple threats at once. It was having some success in tournaments before the nerf so can't be totally bonker idea.

Ork players need to drop the mindset of MANZ being deathstar that destroys anything they touch.
All instances of them being run successfully in tournaments use them to bully infantry or vehicles off objectives and take them for themselves, which is how all TEQ are used in 8th edition. Their power comes from their durability, not from their offensive strength.

While not very orky, denying VP to your opponent and collecting some yourself is much more likely to win you games than outright smashing stuff. Having ~6 surviving MANZ sitting on an objective and do nothing might feel wrong, but it is doing a lot towards winning you the game.

So I don't think that there is a need for mob up as 10 MANZ will already do that job pretty nicely, two units of MANZ have some nice redundancy in case you fail a charge even if they cost twice as many CP to deep strike.
T1 jumping any number is just throwing away lots of points to clear screens, as any plasma gun and krak grenades and worst case some character or knight in the enemy army is going to kill themselves some MANz while the bulk of your army is not in range yet.

Well if durability is their selling point then just forget it. MAN is not tough.

Apparently there were lots of big tournaments last week, with two orks placing third, one fourth and one fifth. While were are not low-tier at all, it's obvious that orks struggle to place first anywhere. Also, Nick Nanavati seems to have given up on the "most powerful army in the game" and switched to GSC, placing first with them.

Both third placed player were running 3 units of boyz, SSAG, 15 lootas, "the weird 32" battalion.
One third-placing player had 3 units of 5 storm boyz, smasha guns, three warbosses and two KFF meks on bikes,
The other third place was running two dakka jets and a wazzbom blastajet instead.

The most intersting list comes from the fourth placed ork player from china:
- 2x boyz
- 30 Stormboyz
- Snikrot
- Deffkilla Wartrike (Bloodaxe!)
- 2x 5 Kommandoz
- 2x Megatrakk Scapjet
- Trukk (no clue what he put in there, either gretchin or kommandoz)
- Burna bommer
- Dakkajet
- Wazzbom Blastajet
- NO Lootaz, mek guns or SSAG

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bqw4q5/pandas_weekend_rundown_may_1819/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Well if durability is their selling point then just forget it. MAN is not tough.

People doing way better than you in tournaments seem to disagree.

I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.

So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!

Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !

Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno

addnid wrote:
I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.

So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!

Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !

Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno

Got a tournament with my freebooterz at the end of this month and will face some gsc for sure. I never met them before; any tip on how to counter them? What are the gsc weakness?

Played a 2000 point tournament practice game last night against a black legion and red corsairs list. We played an eternal war, maelstrom bastardisation in prep for a local tournament. The maelstrom mission was cloak and shadow which meant it was -1 to hit outside 18". Normally I play ITC missions and while it was interesting using the tactical objectives and the night fighting rule mixed things up the mishmash of rules are definitely going to cause complications during the tournament. There is no fat on the ITC rules and in a competition I personally think they're better.

My list was as follows

I'll try to get his full list and post it but from memory

He had way fewer drops than me. He put all the terminators in deepstrike while I put my deffkoptas and Kommandos into reserve. I actually forgot to deploy the 21 boyz squad so just paid the 2 Cp to deep strike them to keep it honest.

It was the classic Dawn of War deployment. I was able to nickle and dime him with low cost units like the grot gunz and gretchin squads so got to see where he put his juicy targets. He deployed along the line while I decided to "castle up" on my back left with 90% of my deployed stuff within 18" of my kff. He finished deploying so go the +1 but I still won the roll off and got to go first.

My T1:
I popped the 18" KFF strat. Moved my lootas forward (they were already hitting on 6s thanks to the night fighting so I wanted to get them within 18" so they could hit on 5s) and pushed my battlewagon (which had 10 grots, 5 nobs, a waagh nob and Evil sunz warboss) and truck (which contained 10 grots and the badmoonz warboss) as well as the deffkilla wartrike to the centre/right.

I mobbed up the 30 and 10 man squads then cast warpath and then Da jumped them onto his right flank while covering an objective.

I used Extra dakk and the Vigalus shoot twice strat on my SSAG who killed the predator (thanks to the big killa WLT) and took 6 Ws off the land raider. The lootas rolled a 1 for shots...3 times ( I rerolled to no avail) and did minimal damage to the land raider.

I assaulted the 40 man squad into the shooty defiler bracketing it and managed to tag the land raider in consolidation but I wrapped the defiler. I got first strike.

His T1:

He pulled the landraider back after deploying its cargo. He cast some stuff. He shot all his heavy weapons into the battle wagon which only lost 5 wounds. He shot a load of bolters into a squad of grots but they had the 5++ from the KFF so left 2. He charged an executioner and an infantry squad into the (no longer 40 but still over 20) squad of boyz. He killed a few but in return they brought the defiler down to 3 wounds, and took 3 wounds off the executioner (who killed 8 boyz thanks to his mortal wound causing axe. I used 2 CP to autopass the grots preventing him from getting first strike.

My T2:
I deployed my Nobz, warboss and grots out of the battlewagon and within easy charge range of his line, moved the deff killa wartrike within range of his lines. I held back my reserves because in all honesty I didnt need it. I da jumped the weird boyz so he could charge (in hindsight I should have da jumped the grots nearby to limit his deepstrike ability). In shooting the SSAG finished off the Land raider while the lootas again to very little due to their halved BS. In assault I charged the Evil sunz warboss, nobz, deffkilla wartrike, weirdboy and battlewagon into his red corsairs infantry. I killed 2, 8 and 5 guys as well as the Defiler and executioner. He autopassed the squad that lost 8.

His T2;
He brought the squad that lost 8 back using the red corsair strat and moved his dark apostle, sorcerer and warlord to attack my deffkilla wartrike and warboss. He then deep struck all his termies on my right flank. He buffed them with prescience and used the shoot twice strat. The Terminators shooting killed 1 mek gun, the battlewagon the bad moonz truck and the 5 nobs. He assaulted my deffkilla wartrike with the sorcerer and warlord but failed to kill them. The wartrike killed the sorcerer in return. HIs termie blob got the objective them landed near.

My T3:
I pulled everything I could away from the right flank where his terminators were. I pulled the badly wounded wartrike and weirdboy out of combat. I dropped my reserves away from the terminators but thanks to the moved distance of the deffkilla wartrikes was happy I could swoop to any objectives I needed. I deployed the 21 boyz near the weirdboyz so that if needed they could da jump wherever. My SSAG and Lootas took shots at the regenerated infantry squad from afar. In the assault I wiped his infantry and 2 characters.

His T3:
He was limited to his 4" termie move and had limited targets (all at -1 to hit). At this stage we called it. While he had 450 worth of terminators left they were miles away from any other objectives (they'd already scored the one they were on) and was further from any targets.

addnid wrote:
I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.

So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!

Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !

Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno

Most of those tournaments run 5 rounds and the fields have become very diverse with the castellan getting toned down, so your opponent for the first two games could pretty much be anything. Until the meta settles down from being shaken up by the FAQ, being able to handle as many different enemies as possible is more likely to bring you to the top tables. In addition, if GSC is the new hotness many people might not have their army ready yet.

Overall it was a good learning experience. a 40 boy squad with warpath can cause damage and can easily wrap. They did eventually kill the defiler but MANZ would have been much better suited. This was not the first time the normal Nobz got obliterated by return fire. The battlewagon did ok but I'm looking at dropping it and using the points for MANZ.

I literally forgot to deploy the 21 boyz so had to pay 2CP to telaport them. I should have deployed them at the start and then given my weirdboy a second unit to da jump in turn dominating more of the board before my opponent could drop his termies.

The lootas were pretty underwhelming but in their defense the night fighting halved their ability.

The SSAG combo'd with the Big killa WLT, the more dakka (dakka dakka on 5s) strat and the Vigalus shoot twice strat was awesome as per usual

Do people exclusively run MANZ as Evil Sunz to ensure they get the +1 to charge?

I'm half considering loading 7 Bad moonz MANZ up in a battlewagon with 5 Kommandos and a blunderbus warboss. They'd either push straight up the board and put out a reasonable amount of firepower or I could teleport the battewagon in for 2CP. The MANZ and Blunderbus boss can put out a pretty reasonable amount of firepower (2d6 S5 autohits + 28 S4 reroll 1s). The battlewagon could then use the ramming speed strat to get into cc. I've no illusions that the wagon would be blown up but the bare bones Kommandos would take those wounds (hopefully leaving the two index burnas to deter any charges along with the blunderbus boss).

TLDR Running MANZ as something other than Evil Sunz yes or no.

I miss using my MANz as a trukk-missile, theyve been on a shelf since 8th began.

Also side note CaptionO: Blunderboss is 3D6 autohits because it replaces the "Shoota" profile and you can fire both combi profiles at a -1 to hit penalty...oh wait autohits who cares...so you still have the standard Skorcha too - theres a slight range difference you gotta pay attention to but otherwise same exact profile.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I miss using my MANz as a trukk-missile, theyve been on a shelf since 8th began.

Also side note CaptionO: Blunderboss is 3D6 autohits because it replaces the "Shoota" profile and you can fire both combi profiles at a -1 to hit penalty...oh wait autohits who cares...so you still have the standard Skorcha too - theres a slight range difference you gotta pay attention to but otherwise same exact profile.

Very cool. I don't really have the +15Points for the kombi skorcha but if I'll see if I can find it. Best thing about the 12" is that it can shoot after deep striking (either within a open topped vehicle or on foot).

CaptainO wrote:
Do people exclusively run MANZ as Evil Sunz to ensure they get the +1 to charge?

I'm half considering loading 7 Bad moonz MANZ up in a battlewagon with 5 Kommandos and a blunderbus warboss. They'd either push straight up the board and put out a reasonable amount of firepower or I could teleport the battewagon in for 2CP. The MANZ and Blunderbus boss can put out a pretty reasonable amount of firepower (2d6 S5 autohits + 28 S4 reroll 1s). The battlewagon could then use the ramming speed strat to get into cc. I've no illusions that the wagon would be blown up but the bare bones Kommandos would take those wounds (hopefully leaving the two index burnas to deter any charges along with the blunderbus boss).

TLDR Running MANZ as something other than Evil Sunz yes or no.

I wouldn't run MANz in battlewagons, as it's pretty easy to destroy 1-2 per turn. If you put MANz inside one of them, they will be stranded in you deployment zone alongside your warboss, as they are the biggest threat on the board. Even if they are not evil suns, tellyporting them in is probably the best solution, as there is no better way to deliver them to where they can have impact on the game or keep them safe until they matter. The whole idea is using T1 and T2 to remove as many threats to them as possible with lootas and/or mek guns and deploy them to where they help you win the game.

Since I ain't got Battlescribe on my phone, I'll just give you guys a run-down from memory on a list I built up.

Freebooter DREADWAAGH Battalion

SSAG w/Ammo Runt
Weirdboy (Da Jump)
3x10 Gretchin
Gorkanaut
MekaDread w/Rippa, Zzappa, and KFF
8 Flashgitz w/Ammo Runt
1 FG Kaptin with Gitfinda and Choppa
Trukk

Freebooter Battalion

2x Big Mek w/KFF and Ammo Runt
Kaptin Badrukk w/Ammo Runt
3x10 Gretchin
2x 3 Smashas
2x Dakkajet w/6 Gunz

Basic strategy is to start with the Gork and Dread in a Tellyporta. Smashas deployed in 2 groups, with a Big Mek in the middle. Weirdboy and SSAG deployed behind the Gretchin bubble. Gitz and Badrukk go into the Trukk. Use the Jets and Smashas to proc the +1 for everything else. Da Jump Gretchin onto Objectives, as needed. Pull the Gork and Dread out of Tellyport to handle any large threats. List is mostly based around shooting (obviously) but both the Gork and Dread can put in some CC work, if needed. And the Gitz aren't slouches in CC either. Especially if the Trukk pops and I Loot It to give them a 3+ Save.

 flandarz wrote:
Since I ain't got Battlescribe on my phone, I'll just give you guys a run-down from memory on a list I built up.

Freebooter DREADWAAGH Battalion

SSAG w/Ammo Runt
Weirdboy (Da Jump)
3x10 Gretchin
Gorkanaut
MekaDread w/Rippa, Zzappa, and KFF
8 Flashgitz w/Ammo Runt
1 FG Kaptin with Gitfinda and Choppa
Trukk

Freebooter Battalion

2x Big Mek w/KFF and Ammo Runt
Kaptin Badrukk w/Ammo Runt
3x10 Gretchin
2x 3 Smashas
2x Dakkajet w/6 Gunz

Basic strategy is to start with the Gork and Dread in a Tellyporta. Smashas deployed in 2 groups, with a Big Mek in the middle. Weirdboy and SSAG deployed behind the Gretchin bubble. Gitz and Badrukk go into the Trukk. Use the Jets and Smashas to proc the +1 for everything else. Da Jump Gretchin onto Objectives, as needed. Pull the Gork and Dread out of Tellyport to handle any large threats. List is mostly based around shooting (obviously) but both the Gork and Dread can put in some CC work, if needed. And the Gitz aren't slouches in CC either. Especially if the Trukk pops and I Loot It to give them a 3+ Save.

Hah, thats very similar to a list I'm taking to a small 24man tournament on monday. Mines 1750 so i haven't got the Gork, Meka or Smashas, but I do have 15 Lootas. Really interested to see how it will play out.

 Jidmah wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Do people exclusively run MANZ as Evil Sunz to ensure they get the +1 to charge?

I'm half considering loading 7 Bad moonz MANZ up in a battlewagon with 5 Kommandos and a blunderbus warboss. They'd either push straight up the board and put out a reasonable amount of firepower or I could teleport the battewagon in for 2CP. The MANZ and Blunderbus boss can put out a pretty reasonable amount of firepower (2d6 S5 autohits + 28 S4 reroll 1s). The battlewagon could then use the ramming speed strat to get into cc. I've no illusions that the wagon would be blown up but the bare bones Kommandos would take those wounds (hopefully leaving the two index burnas to deter any charges along with the blunderbus boss).

TLDR Running MANZ as something other than Evil Sunz yes or no.

I wouldn't run MANz in battlewagons, as it's pretty easy to destroy 1-2 per turn. If you put MANz inside one of them, they will be stranded in you deployment zone alongside your warboss, as they are the biggest threat on the board. Even if they are not evil suns, tellyporting them in is probably the best solution, as there is no better way to deliver them to where they can have impact on the game or keep them safe until they matter. The whole idea is using T1 and T2 to remove as many threats to them as possible with lootas and/or mek guns and deploy them to where they help you win the game.

My logic is that the battelwagon would give the MANZ additional survivability. If I deploy them at the start the MANZ won't be accessible until its blown up and the (relatively) cheap kommandos can act as ablative wounds. Then when (and I know its a when) it gets blown up I can use the weirdboy to da jump them. I wouldn't da jump them untill I've cleared the chaff with my 2 x 40boyz squads (after mobbing up), 15 lootas and SSAG so T2/T3 anyway. It gives me the option of Teleporting the battlewagon and then using the 3d6 strat is a good way to get into the tau lines. Again when it blows up I then have a unit right in a gunlines face.

I could possibly switch around some units and have the MANZ as Evil Sunz for that sweet 8" charge but they'd lose the option of hiding in the truck, lose the reroll 1s and the way my restructuring would work I'd have to find 40 points elsewhere. I'd be able to teleport the MANZ as either Bad Moonz or Evil Sunz.

If oyu want to keep them safe until da jump just put them out of LOS. There's not THAT much MAN killing indirect fire weapons. Basilisk being about only one of note.

CaptainO wrote:
My logic is that the battelwagon would give the MANZ additional survivability. If I deploy them at the start the MANZ won't be accessible until its blown up and the (relatively) cheap kommandos can act as ablative wounds. Then when (and I know its a when) it gets blown up I can use the weirdboy to da jump them. I wouldn't da jump them untill I've cleared the chaff with my 2 x 40boyz squads (after mobbing up), 15 lootas and SSAG so T2/T3 anyway.

But that means you are using 200+ points just to protect them. Those point could just as well get you 3 units of gretchin and two weirdboyz/KFF meks to gain 5 CP and use two of those to tellyport in the MANz - especially if you are planning to hold them back until turn 2 or 3.
Anytime I run battlewagons, one or two turn into craters turn one and the ones with obvious targets in them will always go first. Unless you have some nauts or other vehicles in their face turn 1 like a wartrike or planes to draw fire from them, the MANz will lose their transport turn one as they are the biggest threat on the board. You really don't gain anything from that.
If you really want MANz in battlewagons, spread them around. Put 5 MANz and 10 gretchin in one battlewagon and the same in another. Put your warboss in a third transport to make it difficult for your opponent to decide which one to stop first, your chance of one of them reaching enemy lines is much higher.

It gives me the option of Teleporting the battlewagon and then using the 3d6 strat is a good way to get into the tau lines. Again when it blows up I then have a unit right in a gunlines face.

Tellyporting in a transport is a pretty bad idea in general since your expensive unit cannot disembark until the next turn, allowing them to surround the transport and blow it up. Even if they don't do it perfectly, the MANz big bases will cause some to die.

I could possibly switch around some units and have the MANZ as Evil Sunz for that sweet 8" charge but they'd lose the option of hiding in the truck, lose the reroll 1s and the way my restructuring would work I'd have to find 40 points elsewhere. I'd be able to teleport the MANZ as either Bad Moonz or Evil Sunz.

It really doesn't matter whether you tellyport or jump them, +1 to charge, move and advance is great for them no matter what. Getting to re-rolls ones for seven kustom shootas doesn't really compare.

tneva82 wrote:
If oyu want to keep them safe until da jump just put them out of LOS. There's not THAT much MAN killing indirect fire weapons. Basilisk being about only one of note.

Fair point. Where I’ll deploy them will depend on who I’m playing. Im assuming you’re pro putting them evil sunz so?

If you feel like this is gonna work, go for it. Everyone else has already said their piece on it, so I won't reiterate except to say that it's not "optimized". That said, not a huge fan of MANz anyway. Even just in our own Faction we got so many AP- guns with lots of shots (Flash Gitz and Lootaz come to mind). Best use I can think for them would be to be Da Jumped to an Objective in Cover and be really difficult to remove while they sit there. They have lackluster shooting, because Orkz, and even their CC ain't the best since their Klawz give them a -1 to-hit. Their only claim to fame is their real good Save.

The Freebooter Kultur is +1 to hit correct? (after killing a unit) Does it combo well with more dakka for triggering more hits on 4+ or does it have to be a natural 5+ to trigger DDD.

It has to be a natural 5+.

Anyone ever use loot it on MANZ?