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I did, before it was FAQ'd to do nothing. Played a friendly game with my buddy, just to see how broken it was. And it was very broken.

But, if you're asking if Loot It can give MANz a 1+ Save, the answer is "no".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For clarification, the reason it was broken is because:

1) AP- modifies the Save roll, not the Save Characteristic.
2) no modifier can bring a roll below a 1.
3) a roll of 1 is only an automatic failure if it is a natural 1.

Which meant that if you Looted something with your Manz and got them a 1+ Save, you could only fail a Save on a roll of 1 on the dice, regardless of what AP your opponent used. AP0 or AP 8, it didn't matter.

Doesnt work, FAQ put a cap to prevent the extremely rule-threading exploit with MANz + Loot It!

Rgr. I Was hoping that it would allow me to mitigate high ap weapons but the faq means it does nothing.

Use loot it on your flashgitz and nobz to give them 3+ armour

Yup. And then keep them in Cover and you effectively have 2+ Saves on them.

 flandarz wrote:
I did, before it was FAQ'd to do nothing. Played a friendly game with my buddy, just to see how broken it was. And it was very broken.

But, if you're asking if Loot It can give MANz a 1+ Save, the answer is "no".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For clarification, the reason it was broken is because:

1) AP- modifies the Save roll, not the Save Characteristic.
2) no modifier can bring a roll below a 1.
3) a roll of 1 is only an automatic failure if it is a natural 1.

Which meant that if you Looted something with your Manz and got them a 1+ Save, you could only fail a Save on a roll of 1 on the dice, regardless of what AP your opponent used. AP0 or AP 8, it didn't matter.

And gw could have fixed it in other ways. Make loot it give modifier to roll or make exception to roll below 1 counts as 1. Necrons already have one so 1-1 does work when you need to roll less than 1.

It did modify the roll, that was the problem.
It had something to do with the timing of AP vs the bonus to armor save. BaconCatBug would be the guy to ask the details of, but its a thing of the past now anyway.

I pretty much never even think about it unless i can give it to 20ish or more boyz and there isnt a mass of AP-1 or 2 guns anyway, or give it to Nobz since often that means they have A save in the end and are much more resilient to the no AP guns.

They sure could have. But GW has a habit of gimping Orkz instead of, you know, the armies that are *actually* dominating tournaments.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It did modify the roll, that was the problem.
It had something to do with the timing of AP vs the bonus to armor save. BaconCatBug would be the guy to ask the details of, but its a thing of the past now anyway.

I pretty much never even think about it unless i can give it to 20ish or more boyz and there isnt a mass of AP-1 or 2 guns anyway, or give it to Nobz since often that means they have A save in the end and are much more resilient to the no AP guns.

No it modified save statistic. Replace the 2 on datasheet with 1. If it would have modified roll then you roll 2, reduce 5 from ap, add 1 from loot it, below 1, counts as 1, fails as 1 is less than 2. Modifying datasheet however that 1 was pass as you rolled your save so you onlv fail on native 1's.

Annoingly it's not like can't modify below 1 isn't even absolute rule anymore so this nerf was unneeded

Is anyone else a little sad that Nobz aren't good yet? If you look at them from a purely theoretical stance, on paper at least, they are beasts. 14pts for a S5 2W 3 attack 4+ save model that can easily be given 5 attacks (2 choppas) for no points increase. These guys should be absolute monsters, but for some reason they suck.

I am talking from a purely competitive standpoint. Do to how wounds work and the plethora of 2 damage weapons floating about, having 2 wounds doesn't really mean all that much, and those weapons with 2 dmg usually have -1 to -2 AP which means that 4+ save is now a T-shirt again. And at the cost of 10 Nobz you can field 20 Boyz. 10 Nobz with double Choppas have 50 attacks, the Boyz have 80.

I have seen a lot of Space Marine players compare Nobz and Tactical Marines, saying that Marines are too expensive at 13pts and nobz shouldn't get a buff because they are as good as tacticals already.....well, correct me if I am wrong, but don't marine players constantly complain that Tactical Marines are garbage and need a buff to be competitive? wouldn't that mean by that logic that Nobz are in a bad spot as well?

I have so many nobz in my army and I would love to be able to field them.

I think Nobz are decent. I think their biggest issue is the same issue most Ork units have: lackluster shooting. When 50+% of the game is played at range, poor shooting hurts.

Then again assault units have their place and these come in and charge before enemy can do anything. Trick is clearing chaff. And play against list without tons of d2 weapons which turns nobz into joke.

Even then, I kinda feel like we have better Assault options than Nobz, like the Bonebreaker. I don't think they're bad, but I do feel like they need some tweaks to find their place. They're just competing with a lot of solid options for their role.

The problem with Nobz is they die so easily. As most things in the ork codex. But cost so many points compared to how easily they wither away. If you wanted them in a better spot, you’d have to buff them.. but then other things would need buffed. Tau guns should be ap3, guardsman should cost 1ppm less and the list goes on and on of what others would WANT for their armies. If you like the unit take it, even though it’s bad if you want to be competitive, then you have to play flavor of the week. You just missed the only flavor unfortunately that had orks seeing decent results, mob up loota bomb.. but that needed to go anyway

Ummm no if bad unit gets buffed to reasonable level that does not mean tau basic guns need ap3 or ig troopers need to be 3 pts or whatever. You can, funny that, buff bad units without screwing balance. It's when you buff already good units problems come

I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.

 flandarz wrote:
I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.

Orks have.. the best? No. No my friend not at all. Imperial guard, Craftworlds, drukhari, gene cult and tau have the best mono codex. They are all top tier. Yours is second tier. It’s good but has hiccups. Please don’t exaggerate

Kinda funny when your solution to "Nobz could use a point drop" was to immediately exaggerate.

Judging from what we've seen at tournaments, I'll have to disagree. Generally, Orkz perform very well until they run up against one of the armies I mentioned above. That said, YMMV, of course. In my own, I tend to do very well against the two Tau players I go up against. Probably something like 70-30 Win/Loss ratios.

But I'll grant you that we have some growing to do. We kinda got hit hard when CA dropped right after our Codex and everyone got price drops except for Orkz. We'll see what comes up in the future.

 flandarz wrote:
Kinda funny when your solution to "Nobz could use a point drop" was to immediately exaggerate.

Judging from what we've seen at tournaments, I'll have to disagree. Generally, Orkz perform very well until they run up against one of the armies I mentioned above. That said, YMMV, of course. In my own, I tend to do very well against the two Tau players I go up against. Probably something like 70-30 Win/Loss ratios.

But I'll grant you that we have some growing to do. We kinda got hit hard when CA dropped right after our Codex and everyone got price drops except for Orkz. We'll see what comes up in the future.

If it isn’t ITC it isn’t very competitive. (In itc orks do very poor). That’s not why I like itc. Take the Alamo gt. The winning list was Tzaangors spam beat imperial knights why? Because they played enclosed ruins, non itc format, and had all 4 objectives on first floor of those ruins.. knights could see or get to them somlost. This is just one example of why tournament results that aren’t itc are not that great. As far as your tau players, it doesn’t sound like they have room to grow. Unfortunate. Or they don’t player hyper competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m assuming they don’t because you didn’t realize the Coldstar is a suicide unit and couldn’t understand why someone would throw it away. You should always throw it away to kill things you need

Well, I play Orkz. What are they gonna throw the Coldstar at that will get its points back? He doesn't have the shots to take out a Mob of Orkz in any size greater than 5. And our vehicles aren't exactly prime targets for him either.

I don't know if there was an ITC since then, but the one I remember (back in November or so?) two Ork armies made it into the top 20, out of 800 players. That's not exactly "do poorly" range. Can't say much about other tournament configurations, but the OP has 3-4 lists that made top 3 or better at other tournaments.

I'll end with: I would play Orkz even if they actually WERE the worst army in the game. Because I like them. I like their Lore. I like their Kultur. I like how it feels to play Orkz; how aggressive you feel. That's me. I didn't choose to play Orkz because they were the best (I started playing pre-Codex when practically the only viable build was Green Tide). I chose to play Orkz because they're my favorite. I say all this because I don't really feel the need to defend them to you. If your experiences with Orkz makes you feel like they suck, then I can't argue that. I can only argue my own experiences and what I've seen in tournaments.

 flandarz wrote:
Well, I play Orkz. What are they gonna throw the Coldstar at that will get its points back? He doesn't have the shots to take out a Mob of Orkz in any size greater than 5. And our vehicles aren't exactly prime targets for him either.

I don't know if there was an ITC since then, but the one I remember (back in November or so?) two Ork armies made it into the top 20, out of 800 players. That's not exactly "do poorly" range. Can't say much about other tournament configurations, but the OP has 3-4 lists that made top 3 or better at other tournaments.

I'll end with: I would play Orkz even if they actually WERE the worst army in the game. Because I like them. I like their Lore. I like their Kultur. I like how it feels to play Orkz; how aggressive you feel. That's me. I didn't choose to play Orkz because they were the best (I started playing pre-Codex when practically the only viable build was Green Tide). I chose to play Orkz because they're my favorite. I say all this because I don't really feel the need to defend them to you. If your experiences with Orkz makes you feel like they suck, then I can't argue that. I can only argue my own experiences and what I've seen in tournaments.

Mind you I said orks were right under the mono codex I said above in my previous post. That IS STILL top tier. I simply said they weren’t the best mono faction codex. They do not suck, they just aren’t the best but they ARE top. I don’t hate orks. I hate false information. Orks do well in tournaments, but a little worse than the above factions I stated. I’ll end with that.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.

Orks have.. the best? No. No my friend not at all. Imperial guard, Craftworlds, drukhari, gene cult and tau have the best mono codex. They are all top tier. Yours is second tier. It’s good but has hiccups. Please don’t exaggerate

outside of tau everything you posted is only competitive using allies. Imperial guard was the best mono dex but has been nerfed in every which way. Orks regularly place in the top 10 in nearly every tournament that’s hardly second tier.

To be fair orks tau and necrons need to be the best mono dexs as they have no allies.
Personally I think people are complaining about our okay units way to much. Nobs are good, manz are good.... what needs help are kilakans (dread mob) trucks (truck boyz), burnas and kinda warbikers (bikestars) all of which are the basis of ork lists that don’t work anymore. (Stompa too)
We’ve moved into the shooty (sag, loota, mekgunz) with large boy (boyz, grots, stormboys kinda) unit edition of orks. Sprinkled with some other units to make your detachment mostly involving index options that won’t exist in the future (kommandos, deffkotpa, bike characters, mek w kff) add in a weirdboy or 2 which are good.... orks won’t really work as well once the index is gone.

That's fair. And, you know what? I'll count that as a win. Considering your original stance was "Orkz were, are, and always will be the punching bag army", getting you to "one of the best" is a big step in the right direction. @Jidmah: go ahead and update the OP with a new victory for the Orkz. We got the Tau to admit that we're one of the best!

Honestly? Been a pleasure debating with you, P4P. Have a good one.

I agree. Our worse units really need some love. I feel like we need some Grot specific stuff, especially Stratagems. Right now they only ones that work for them are Grot Shields and Stratagems that target enemies instead of the player unit. That said, I don't think we need Index to be competitive. Plenty of solid options there, no doubt. But we can work with the Codex. The hardest hit will be losing Big Meks with KFFs, so I'm hoping the MegaArmor Mek will get a price drop before they kill the Index.

personally, only issue i have with nobz is the usual Autocannon-type shot is too easily spammed and it just eats low toughness 2W models without even trying, even if they have a proper save.
Pricewise i dont have an issue with them. If i manage to delete the autocannon type weapons before the nobz are around they usually dont die, or at least are still half strength by game end. If i dont, they last 1 round (the round they arrived)

Only actual Ork unit i hope gets a proper buff is Burnas because wow...just...wtf...they are complete garbage both shooty and assaulty.
Would love some grot specific love of course but other than killakanz getting something minor i dont expect anything.

 flandarz wrote:
That's fair. And, you know what? I'll count that as a win. Considering your original stance was "Orkz were, are, and always will be the punching bag army", getting you to "one of the best" is a big step in the right direction. @Jidmah: go ahead and update the OP with a new victory for the Orkz. We got the Tau to admit that we're one of the best!

Honestly? Been a pleasure debating with you, P4P. Have a good one.

I agree. Our worse units really need some love. I feel like we need some Grot specific stuff, especially Stratagems. Right now they only ones that work for them are Grot Shields and Stratagems that target enemies instead of the player unit. That said, I don't think we need Index to be competitive. Plenty of solid options there, no doubt. But we can work with the Codex. The hardest hit will be losing Big Meks with KFFs, so I'm hoping the MegaArmor Mek will get a price drop before they kill the Index.

The gear I’m on sometimes causes me to be a bit hot headed. So that’s my bad

Outside of killakans no way grots get buffed... mekguns and grots are already borderline OP.
Mind you grots are really this good because of grot shield but they already outperform units like conscripts. Not saying runtherders can’t be made cheaper but ya I expect nor do I want any buffs to grots.

Like I said buff killakans, burnas, trukks, warbikers, and stompa and nearly every unit is decent.

In and of themselves, Grots aren't great. 3ppm for a unit that Wounds T4 models on a 5+ at range and 6+ in CC, and who die to a stiff breeze aint exactly cost-effective. What make them good is that they can die for better units and they allow us to make cheap Battalions for CP generation. I, personally, wouldn't mind some Grot specific Stratagems or Abilities, so they can be a bit more effective. Like "Cowards: Gretchin Infantry in Cover get a +2 to their Save Rolls, instead of a +1", or "Fungus Brew (1CP): Gretchin units automatically pass Morale tests." I don't think either of these would be "broken" and they would help Grots be more than meatshields and CP batteries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear, I'm not on the "Grots need a buff" boat. I just think these would be nice, thematic thing that would make Grots cooler.

 flandarz wrote:
In and of themselves, Grots aren't great. 3ppm for a unit that Wounds T4 models on a 5+ at range and 6+ in CC, and who die to a stiff breeze aint exactly cost-effective. What make them good is that they can die for better units and they allow us to make cheap Battalions for CP generation. I, personally, wouldn't mind some Grot specific Stratagems or Abilities, so they can be a bit more effective. Like "Cowards: Gretchin Infantry in Cover get a +2 to their Save Rolls, instead of a +1", or "Fungus Brew (1CP): Gretchin units automatically pass Morale tests." I don't think either of these would be "broken" and they would help Grots be more than meatshields and CP batteries.

Yeah, I was hoping that we could have a 1CP, "Suicide Grot" stratagem similar to what Necrons have with scarabs where we can have a grot die in cc and on a 3+ cause D3 mortal wounds. Something to give more utility to grots beyond objective holders and CP batteries

The only thing that even remotely makes grots OP is the grotshield ability to make a blob of lootas nigh unkillable for several turns.
Grots themselves are complete and utter trash.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The only thing that even remotely makes grots OP is the grotshield ability to make a blob of lootas nigh unkillable for several turns.
Grots themselves are complete and utter trash.

Right unkillable...riiiight. Apart from there being 2 factions that flat out ignores that the grots can also be shot down quickly. T2 means anything with S4 is clearing(obviously you don't fire first at lootas but instead grots). I have had several times 15 lootas and 60 grots cleared in T1 by sheer weight of dice. T2 is latest if opponent wants to deal.

And if you don't have 30 strong blocks flyers and T1 charges will also deal with lootas nicely.

They aren't unkillable by far.