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He probably throws out too many shots to really make good use of the Deffskulls trait. Freebootaz for 4+ to hit or Badmoons for RR1 and a second source of shooting twice are probably the best bet for RNJesus (now in gun form.)

The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.

Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.

Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.

Freebootaz are worse vs hit modifiers if you're using more dakka strat. On the other hand, it allows you to save 2cp and still shoot ok-ish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.

Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP

Tankbustas need a trukk to work. While sitting in a trukk, they can't use strategems. They also get within 24. You can't just calculate damage output and call it a day.

cody.d. wrote:
He probably throws out too many shots to really make good use of the Deffskulls trait. Freebootaz for 4+ to hit or Badmoons for RR1 and a second source of shooting twice are probably the best bet for RNJesus (now in gun form.)

Nope. Bad moon isn't generating more than one 1 too often. Difference isn't that big but vs knight deathskull eeks out over knights in every instance except now-illegal 3++/5+++(vs mortal) due to regular shots being pretty bad at causing damage so you are relying on getting high # of shots at S11+ anyway.

Though if you don't have deathskull detachment then it's not big deal but if you have both deathskull and bad moon it's deathskull for maximum efficiency. you already have shoot twice for him with the vigilus detachment anyway.

cody.d. wrote:
Wait? Really? Cause that's bloody hilarious! Gotta measure if a battlewagon can get within 1/2 inch of a infantry unit who are sitting on the second floor of the new GW buildings. or how many turrets I have to stack to make this hilarity a possibility. Being able to sit underneath a unit and attack them in melee through a floor.

If you build the battlwagon as seen in my avatar (official picture from the supplement that shall not be named), it's tall enough to even melee unit on top of the kill team ruins.

I have been catching people off guard by measuring disembarking distance from the roof since 5th


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 Sonminiser wrote:
For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?

SSAG should always have the big killa boss warlord trait, as it makes even mediocre rolls for strength good and good rolls great. The deff skulls trait wins as re-rolling a single damage or to wound roll usually does more than re-rolling a one or two for to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.

Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP

The simple calculation is that lootas can sit in the back and can be protected by gretchin while tank bustas need to run/drive/tellyport into no-mans land without gretchin to protect them, so they are dead after shooting once or less in 9 out of 10 games.
If battlewagons were to become cheaper they might become useful again, but right now they simply lose out to lootas, mek guns and wazzboms because those choices have more range and are more durable.

 Sonminiser wrote:
For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?

You cannot shoot it three times, since both stratagems only allow you to shoot "twice" (Kustom Ammo) or "a second time" (Showin' Off). Neither allows you to shoot three times.

 Nym wrote:

 Sonminiser wrote:
For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?

You cannot shoot it three times, since both stratagems only allow you to shoot "twice" (Kustom Ammo) or "a second time" (Showin' Off). Neither allows you to shoot three times.

Better to say, that you can’t shoot because FAQ forbids.

You also couldn't shoot before since neither stratagem gives you permission to shoot a third time.

 Jidmah wrote:
You also couldn't shoot before since neither stratagem gives you permission to shoot a third time.

It was debatable and some keen minded players even tried to shoot 4 times (doubled shooting from kuston ammo shoots second time with showing off).

 Fan67 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You also couldn't shoot before since neither stratagem gives you permission to shoot a third time.

It was debatable and some keen minded players even tried to shoot 4 times (doubled shooting from kuston ammo shoots second time with showing off).

"Keen minded" is definitely not how I would describe those kind of people

 Jidmah wrote:


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cody.d. wrote:
Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.

Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP

The simple calculation is that lootas can sit in the back and can be protected by gretchin while tank bustas need to run/drive/tellyport into no-mans land without gretchin to protect them, so they are dead after shooting once or less in 9 out of 10 games.
If battlewagons were to become cheaper they might become useful again, but right now they simply lose out to lootas, mek guns and wazzboms because those choices have more range and are more durable.

Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.

So apocolypse has some perfect ork movement trays for 40k...
But my main question is that ork effigy on the box background a new ork terrain piece?

Where did you spot this?

Also, anyone notice how it seems we may not be getting one of the new apoc starter boxes?

Orks got an Apoc box.

Ah cool. Hmm, sadly I have most of what's in it already. As for the effigies in the background I'm fairly certain I've seen them around the place a few times. 6th and 7th edition codexs, white dwarfs and the like.

yeah its just walkers. Not even the good walker at that.
Deffdreads are alright but killakanz are pretty bad.
Wonder why the ones they packed for orks were 2 of the older vehicle kits and least used vehicle kits we got. Not an airforce, wagon wall, or naut pair, or just a mass o nobz

Yeah, a gorkanaught or morkanaught surrounded by some mek guns or dreads would have given a more impressive feel. Hell a trio of battlewagons with rollas would have been fantastic to. Maybe they were just trying to move old stock? If it's cheap enough I'll probs still grab it. XP Conversion fuel yay!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah its just walkers. Not even the good walker at that.
Deffdreads are alright but killakanz are pretty bad.
Wonder why the ones they packed for orks were 2 of the older vehicle kits and least used vehicle kits we got. Not an airforce, wagon wall, or naut pair, or just a mass o nobz

Why? Because what does GW ALWAYS put in ork box sets? gak that isn't selling. Look at the Kill team box, Burna Boyz....because people were falling all over themselves to buy those right? Look at the Minigame they made for the Vigilus orkz, new buggies (Utter garbage) and those pesky Warbikes that aren't selling anymore since they got nerfed into the ground and the new rules made them untenable. The Ork "Get Started" box set, 2 units nobody uses and a 10 man unit of boyz with a painboy that nobody really needed after buying enough boyz and painboyz for a green tide list. So why did GW pack DeffDreadz and Killa Kanz into this new box set? Because they made the rules so bad for those units that nobody is buying them because in a game that costs you $500+ to begin playing, why would you drop $50 on a unit that will never see play time because its so bad? So if they aren't selling, put them in a box set together and give them a SMALL discount and hope for the best. Plus, look at all the other Apocalypse detachments....Orkz will get steamrolled by literally ANY of them.


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 flandarz wrote:
If you've ever seen a 50-Cal in action, you'll noticed very quickly how it can negate a cover bonus.

....This one time, in Helmand province.....

cody.d. wrote:

Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.

The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.

---

A few pages back we talked about the Gobshot Blunderbuss relic for Bad Moons. I've given it a shot in a tourney this weekend. The Warboss with relic was accompanied by 9 nobs with Kustom shootas in a Chinork Warkopta. While the gun did some minor killing I wasn't awestruck by its effectiveness. An average of 7 autohits turn into a handfull of wounds (depending on the target) and do not much more then kill a couple of infantry models. Shooting at marines and the like is not all that effective since it is only AP -1 and 1 wound. Won't take him again because he is not as effective as many of our other relics and I don't like using Bad Moons since the rerolling is such a hassle.

The unit accompanying the Blunderbuss-boss was very effective though. These 9 Kustom shoota's with their 36 shots do an average of 15.6 hits and eat chaff for breakfast. When their transport gets blown up the turn into a serious threat in the midst of your enemies lines and with a 3+ save they have some nice staying power. At only 16 points a model they are a bargain.
Next time I will take a 10 nob unit in a Warkopta (nice for deepstriking) and a second 12 nob squad in a trukk.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.

The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.

One round isnt't that impressive though. Not enough to worry many of the targets. You would need the shoot again which you can't do from chinork to really threaten target.

Against leman russ, one of the softer targets, you get about 6.666 wounds with bit of generous dice rolling.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.

The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.

---

A few pages back we talked about the Gobshot Blunderbuss relic for Bad Moons. I've given it a shot in a tourney this weekend. The Warboss with relic was accompanied by 9 nobs with Kustom shootas in a Chinork Warkopta. While the gun did some minor killing I wasn't awestruck by its effectiveness. An average of 7 autohits turn into a handfull of wounds (depending on the target) and do not much more then kill a couple of infantry models. Shooting at marines and the like is not all that effective since it is only AP -1 and 1 wound. Won't take him again because he is not as effective as many of our other relics and I don't like using Bad Moons since the rerolling is such a hassle.

The unit accompanying the Blunderbuss-boss was very effective though. These 9 Kustom shoota's with their 36 shots do an average of 15.6 hits and eat chaff for breakfast. When their transport gets blown up the turn into a serious threat in the midst of your enemies lines and with a 3+ save they have some nice staying power. At only 16 points a model they are a bargain.
Next time I will take a 10 nob unit in a Warkopta (nice for deepstriking) and a second 12 nob squad in a trukk.

To be fair, 1 blunderbuss (without a skorcha component) kills as many marines as 8 kombishoota nobz.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.

I the numbers were still higher for Deathskulls because you take into effect the damage and wound reroll as well.

Probably been questioned to death but: shoota boyz; Bad Moons or Evil Suns?

Same for Deffkoptaz (which I know arent competitive).
Also, do Squigbombs reroll ones to hit if they are Bad moon?

Thanks, sold off half my Orkz, and just trying to make a fun list with what remains.

Higher, yes, by a flippin' fraction lol.
Still just means its more important to pick a kulture that your army wants, not the SSAG.

@Nightlord1987

I run shootas as Bad Moonz and theyre scary good at clearing chaff. They still want to charge, but it isnt the end of the world if they dont. Evil Sunz is fine but i think Bad Moonz is better for them (Evil Sunz for those that desperately want to charge like MANz)

Deffkoptaz if you allow index so they can take KMBs and the Deathskullz trait are stunningly good. W/o index options they kinda suck, ive tried to use them a handful of times and they just dont do anything other than very easily zip across to an objective.

Only Grots are denied kulture benefits so yes Squigbomb woudl reroll 1s. The faction keyword is stuck on its own box, not with the "Tankbusta Keywords" slot, so it applies to both.

I'd still go with Evil Sunz with your Shoota Boyz. They might be shooty, but they're still Boyz. They still want to get into CC. Same for the Koptaz, though they need it a little less than the Boyz do. Pretty sure the Squigbombs reroll 1s, as long as it's a ranged attack.

The deathskulls trait also scales better the LESS shots you get on your first roll. If you get the average of 7, it edges out freebooterz by a small margin. If you roll lower it becomes better and better by comparison, and worse if you roll higher.

Just food for thought

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Higher, yes, by a flippin' fraction lol.

Well about a wound vs knight.


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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Probably been questioned to death but: shoota boyz; Bad Moons or Evil Suns?

Same for Deffkoptaz (which I know arent competitive).
Also, do Squigbombs reroll ones to hit if they are Bad moon?

Thanks, sold off half my Orkz, and just trying to make a fun list with what remains.

Used to do bad moons, now fan of evil suns. Can still clear IG unit and much more reliable charge so 2 chaff cleared for price of 1. And maybe 3 or you get to trap and actually survive(if they don't tri point something they die anyway)

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Higher, yes, by a flippin' fraction lol.

Well about a wound vs knight.

Not enough to make his statement wrong about picking the culture for your army, not your SSAG. A lucky shieldbreaker missile turn 1 can make that wound "nothing".

Waagh everyone.
I've scrupulously crawled through whole 8th edition discussion with all these "SSAG or not" and "BMoons vs Freebootaz", but I haven't found the answer for main beginner's question - "how do you play orks?".
I'm a beginner and in a desperate need for this answer since my games statistic shows that I can beat only some other necron newb. Can someone pay attention and write a short post about general orks army building and tactics?
(or at least send me to exact page of this thread)