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Agree, those S2 grots won't do any significant damage ever

 hollow one wrote:

addnid wrote:


So overall I would suggest a skew list, which will be good in ETC. anti-horde that ignores low str weapons:

-1 warboss (72pts)
-1 nob w/ banner (77 pts)
-8 smasha (248pts)

+2 SAG big mek (160pts)
+1 Dakkajet (148pts)
+2 traktors (90pts)

If you want to go more skew, drop the SAG's entirely and go for a second dakkajet.

You can make a deathskulls detachment for two of the three SAG, then consider badmoons or evil sunz. I think this list might benefit from going snakebites as well. 5++ and 6+++ on all vehicles is pretty good. But realistically you are going all deathskulls. You will not have the CP in this list to double shoot badmoons and dread waagh effectively (you need at least a brigade for that), so I would recommend all deathskulls. You've built a very low damage, but potentially durable list if you get the right matchups.

Hi Hollow, and first thank you for having taken the time to read through all this and for your suggestions !
I just can't seem to manage to end quote so what I am writing is appearing as a quote, oh well...
We agree on the inclusion of the 2 extra deathskull SAGs. The nob banner though is a must for when a gorkanaut goes down one notch (hitting on 4s in CC is not acceptable !), so I can't take it out.
Against a flyer list, if i don't go first, then 2 traktors are just not gonna survive a round of shooting, so i honestly don't see the point. I could all traktor, but then I'd lose too much ant knight capability. The dakkajet would be nice for anti horde indeed, but I think I need the 2 extra SAG (at least to try them, never tried more than the one -with SSAG that is-.

Double shooting Gorka with more dakka is only possible effective (against hordes) if I go bad moon, so I'll stick to that, too bad for the SSAG which will have to be bad moon too, and be less effective than if he was deathskull. new list in spoilers:

Spoiler:

PLAYER : Addnid

DETACHMENT : Bataillon deathskullz
HQ1 : Big Mek avec Kanon Shokk(1*55), Kanon Shokk(25), Grot Graisseur(4) [84]
HQ2 : Big Mek avec Kanon Shokk(1*55), Kanon Shokk(25), Grot Graisseur(4) [84]
Troup1 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup2 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup3 : 11 Gretchins(30 + 1*3) [33]
Total detachment : 261

DETACHMENT : fer de lance bad moon dredd waaagh
HQ1 : Big Mek avec Kanon Shokk(1*55), Kanon Shokk(25), [Vigilus]Eul'Shokker surgonflé, Boss kitutou, Grot Graisseur(4) [84]
HS1 : Gorkanaut(1*250), 2 Gros fling' jumelé(20), 2 Lance rokettes(24), Karbonizator(17) [311]
HS2 : Gorkanaut(1*250), 2 Gros fling' jumelé(20), 2 Lance rokettes(24), Karbonizator(17) [311]
HS3 : Gorkanaut(1*250), 2 Gros fling' jumelé(20), 2 Lance rokettes(24), Karbonizator(17) [311]
Total detachment : 1017

DETACHMENT : Bataillon Bad moon
HQ1 : Big Mek en Méga-armure(1*77), Fling' kustom(2), Pince énergetik'(13), Champ de force kustom(20), Grot graisseur(4) [116]
HQ2 : Weirdboy(1*62) [62]
Troup1 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup2 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Troup3 : 10 Gretchins(30) [30]
Elite1 : Nob avec bannière Waaagh!(1*75), Fling' kustom(2) [77]
Total detachment : 345

DETACHMENT : Bataillon deathskullz
HS1 : 2 Mek Gunz(15 + 1*15), 2 Kanon krazeur(32) [62]
HS2 : 2 Mek Gunz(15 + 1*15), 2 Kanon krazeur(32) [62]
HS3 : 3 Mek Gunz(15 + 2*15), 3 Kanon krazeur(48) [93]
Flyer1 : Wazbom Blastajets(1*99), 2 Méga-kanon wazbom(24), Kanon krazeur(16), Champ de force kustom(20) [159]
Total detachment : 376

ARMY TOTAL [1999]

I'll let you know how it does against my next opponents, starting from ad mech this sunday. Heavy centre of table LoS blocking terrain may be problematic...

Take a Morkanaut with KFF in order to protect those gorkanaut and think about DS a gorkanaut with 3d6 charge stratagems. That is 4 CP investment that will win you games vs gunlines (not TAU) if you properly clear screens before.

I would also change the Wazbomb to a dakkajet becase :
Nobody can tell them apart nor care.
Is better at clearing chaff that you might not see T1
After T1 that kff is wasted on itself, which is never justified, really.

 Emicrania wrote:
Take a Morkanaut with KFF in order to protect those gorkanaut and think about DS a gorkanaut with 3d6 charge stratagems. That is 4 CP investment that will win you games vs gunlines (not TAU) if you properly clear screens before.

I would also change the Wazbomb to a dakkajet becase :
Nobody can tell them apart nor care.
Is better at clearing chaff that you might not see T1
After T1 that kff is wasted on itself, which is never justified, really.

Indeed that is a great tweak ! Thanks ! More dakka, better KFF cover, and better anti tank capacity. One mork, 2 gorks, and wasbom getting replaced by a dakkajet it is then !

As for the TP, yes it is good but it will deprive me of double shooting a naut (2 CP for both strats) so I dunno really... Plus that naut won't be shooting turn 1 will he ? AndI can only get one naut through, I am kinda dead anyway aren't I ?
I've already tried this with lists with only one gorka in them, 4 CP and 300 points seemded way to much for what it did



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would a deathskull bonebreaker be a decent alternative to the dakkajet ? I mean i have probably too little in the way of board presence... Also it would be more tougness 8 stuff that can deal decent damage in CC.
Crazy, right ?

So the new White Scars stuff scares the bejebus out of me.
One of the main people i play is a white scars and he basically just got army-wide anti-multiwound T3 onward gaining both +1 AP on melee weapons and +1 damage.
The hell? At the rate of attacks im expecting with Shock Assault with poweraxe stormshield bikers he's going to butcher everything that isnt flying in melee after his ridiculous rate of fire on my boyz
Unless their points skyrocketed, i dont see how i could possibly face 19 white cars (4 characters following them) once that dex drops.

3 Poweraxes (S5 AP-3 2D) on T3 onward hitting stupid reliably each....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So the new White Scars stuff scares the bejebus out of me.
One of the main people i play is a white scars and he basically just got army-wide anti-multiwound T3 onward gaining both +1 AP on melee weapons and +1 damage.
The hell? At the rate of attacks im expecting with Shock Assault with poweraxe stormshield bikers he's going to butcher everything that isnt flying in melee after his ridiculous rate of fire on my boyz
Unless their points skyrocketed, i dont see how i could possibly face 19 white cars (4 characters following them) once that dex drops.

3 Poweraxes (S5 AP-3 2D) on T3 onward hitting stupid reliably each....

I'm feeling the same for the IF and UM I'm facing regularly, they get new psychic powers, new stratagems, doctrines, better traits, and chants. That seems like way too much.

I'm still waiting for actual games though. When the CSM codex dropped it felt similarly overpowered, but it turned out that lots of the great stuff still dies the same and that they can only spend their points and CP once.

ikr?
other armies get 1 new universal rule. Marines get 4 that are always on with several more that are on depending on the doctrine being active.
Knowing GW, they wont be able to price it right. Either they wont change a thing and a LOT of people will scream OP until it gets nerfed, or like most things that come out lately it will be overpriced and nobody can use it.

I definitely feel like they are overdoing it rules wise, especially from a book keeping perspective. It's the exact opposite of elegant and its clunky as heck to see how extra all these rules are. At this point it just seems like they're written for the sake of ignoring the core rules more than anything else.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ikr?
other armies get 1 new universal rule. Marines get 4 that are always on with several more that are on depending on the doctrine being active.
Knowing GW, they wont be able to price it right. Either they wont change a thing and a LOT of people will scream OP until it gets nerfed, or like most things that come out lately it will be overpriced and nobody can use it.

UM points have been leaked and nothing went down but Gulliman who also got hit with the nerf bat. If you consider what GW did with chaos, it's likely that there are little to no point changes.

Breaking away from the SM speculation, how is everyone equipping the boss nob in stormboyz squads? Keep him cheap or give him a BC/klaw?

 DrGiggles wrote:
Breaking away from the SM speculation, how is everyone equipping the boss nob in stormboyz squads? Keep him cheap or give him a BC/klaw?

I think BC is the safest bet. Stormboyz already cost more than regular boyz and I notice they seem to always attract more fire purely because they can move faster so it's better not to over invest. Their main selling point is their mobility and being able to prevent units from falling back and flying over screens, not damage output.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ikr?
other armies get 1 new universal rule. Marines get 4 that are always on with several more that are on depending on the doctrine being active.
Knowing GW, they wont be able to price it right. Either they wont change a thing and a LOT of people will scream OP until it gets nerfed, or like most things that come out lately it will be overpriced and nobody can use it.

UM points have been leaked and nothing went down but Gulliman who also got hit with the nerf bat. If you consider what GW did with chaos, it's likely that there are little to no point changes.

This is going to be bad then. Every person who wasn't an ork was swearing up and down that Ork boyz needed to go to 7ppm and some even said 8 because of Kulture and getting DDD. SM just got kultures that are significantly better, AND a plethora of other talents/abilities and they stayed the same at 13ppm. This will get ugly.

Actually, tactical marines are 12pt now. So there you go.

I'm expecting some serious Ork point reductions in CA, or I'll be really disappointed.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ikr?
other armies get 1 new universal rule. Marines get 4 that are always on with several more that are on depending on the doctrine being active.
Knowing GW, they wont be able to price it right. Either they wont change a thing and a LOT of people will scream OP until it gets nerfed, or like most things that come out lately it will be overpriced and nobody can use it.

UM points have been leaked and nothing went down but Gulliman who also got hit with the nerf bat. If you consider what GW did with chaos, it's likely that there are little to no point changes.

This is going to be bad then. Every person who wasn't an ork was swearing up and down that Ork boyz needed to go to 7ppm and some even said 8 because of Kulture and getting DDD. SM just got kultures that are significantly better, AND a plethora of other talents/abilities and they stayed the same at 13ppm. This will get ugly.

7ppm ork boyz are good for the health of the ork army though, even if they don't compare well to other codices. I'm fine with a mandatory minimum of 60 boyz over minimum 120 boyz any day. Boyz need a bit more oomph on the charge (maybe buff boss nobz/PKs?), not a point reduction.

Tactical marines still suck at 12 ppm because they die like flies. Intercessor are the troops choice to worry about, with a unit or two of infiltrators mixed in preventing da jump.

A freaking tactical marine is better than a Nob now. What the heck?
CA20 better have some heavy price reductions. The "numbers are our protection" army should not be the same/more expensive than the semi-elitist army.

It's not. Can we just once not completely lose our gak each time a new codex drops? Remember how orks were supposedly done for when GSC dropped? That didn't happen either.

Feel free to lose it once the first actual tournament results come in with marines dominating everything, but not before.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not. Can we just once not completely lose our gak each time a new codex drops? Remember how orks were supposedly done for when GSC dropped? That didn't happen either.

Feel free to lose it once the first actual tournament results come in with marines dominating everything, but not before.

The GSC are great to play against, but SM's bolter skills just got ridiculously buffed. Some of their units are capable (with a strat I believe) of killing 2 full mobs of boyz a turn.

Yeah, I remember how GSC handflamers were supposed to be the end of the world, then slanesh chain guns and now whatever combo that is supposed to be.

A squad of IF agressors will pulverize a unit of boyz under the current rules, a few additional dead are nothing to write home about.

I think part of the concern is that there are a lot more SM players by virtue of their popularity vs a relative newcomer like GSC, which means a lot of people will have to deal with the new shenanigans unless there's lots of established GSC or bandwagoners in their local meta.

Gotta agree with Jidmah though, I have been somewhat guilty of balking at the recent releases and having a bit of the "the sky is falling" mentality but until we have more info of the army in practice 2-3 months after release, a lot of concerns will be conjecture. SM undoubtedly got a buff, but how big of a buff is yet to be seen, and we still have a good amount of dakka to deal with the new stuff. I think the biggest change we'll have is our approach to dealing them with melee, I feel like we'll effectively be treating them like Tau to some extent, not actually assaulting them until they've been sufficiently shot to pieces before its safe to send in the tellyporta'd boyz in T3, while hanging back with mek gunz and grot screens.

Sure ive looked at new stuff and went "aww cmon why didnt we get that" - kinda hard to not do that.
The stuff the marines are getting is on level with Eldar getting D-spam in 7th. Not unbeatable, but casually impossible. Countering way, way too many things with the same unit. Only this time its inverted, T8 stuff are the only thing these new bolter rules wont butcher and even then will still put a lot of damage on because for some reason they get army-wide extra ap now.

Aggressors are going to be a hot target. They absolutely must die first. Way too many bolter shots coming from a 222pt unit with those rules tacked on.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Sure ive looked at new stuff and went "aww cmon why didnt we get that" - kinda hard to not do that.
The stuff the marines are getting is on level with Eldar getting D-spam in 7th. Not unbeatable, but casually impossible. Countering way, way too many things with the same unit. Only this time its inverted, T8 stuff are the only thing these new bolter rules wont butcher and even then will still put a lot of damage on because for some reason they get army-wide extra ap now.

Aggressors are going to be a hot target. They absolutely must die first. Way too many bolter shots coming from a 222pt unit with those rules tacked on.

They even got buffed with an extra wound and attack too. Makes rokkit launchas extra useful to deal with that buff.

wait seriously aggressors are 3w now?
wtf.

Some of you must have missed the fact that the win rate for Orks has been steadily deceasing for some time and now sits at sub 50%.

We are no longer a top level faction. Tyranids perform better.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
wait seriously aggressors are 3w now?
wtf.

Yeah, all gravis units guys got that buff. I believe Inceptors as well? In any case, we're going to have to bring our A-game which CA 2019 hopefully addresses with some long overdue points cuts.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Some of you must have missed the fact that the win rate for Orks has been steadily deceasing for some time and now sits at sub 50%.

We are no longer a top level faction. Tyranids perform better.

I mean, most of us were here before this Codex, so fielding a losing army ain't nothing new to us.

 flandarz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Some of you must have missed the fact that the win rate for Orks has been steadily deceasing for some time and now sits at sub 50%.

We are no longer a top level faction. Tyranids perform better.

I mean, most of us were here before this Codex, so fielding a losing army ain't nothing new to us.

Word. Just means it weeds out the gitz from the bosses! We don't need no cheap roolz to get krumpin!

New space marine stuff does look good but from what I understand tactical doctrines arent available in imperium soup. So CP will probably still be an issue for them.
I think with the expectation of more primaris and gravis dudes on the table I'll swap out my dakka jets for flash gitz and work in tank bustas or mek guns for the gravis units.
I'm expecting the buffs to be big but I've never struggled against a marine army, so I think if they're OP it'll be a manageable amount.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Sure ive looked at new stuff and went "aww cmon why didnt we get that" - kinda hard to not do that.
The stuff the marines are getting is on level with Eldar getting D-spam in 7th. Not unbeatable, but casually impossible. Countering way, way too many things with the same unit. Only this time its inverted, T8 stuff are the only thing these new bolter rules wont butcher and even then will still put a lot of damage on because for some reason they get army-wide extra ap now.

Aggressors are going to be a hot target. They absolutely must die first. Way too many bolter shots coming from a 222pt unit with those rules tacked on.

With the details dripping through (there is video which contains the whole SM codex if you feel like watching that for 2 hours), most of the supposedly uber stuff has some sort of drawback.

The doctrines require a pure SM army so no knights, custodes or loyal 32 if they want doctrines. They also need to take marines to generate CP, which isn't cheap.
You also must switch doctrines in proper order (A->B->C), with a stratagem you can move backwards, only Utramarines can switch at will.
Doctrines' armor penetration does not stack with other sources of additional AP, so those "AP-3 bolters" are not possible at all.
Most vehicles have a mix of rapid, assault and heavy weapons, meaning not everything will benefit a doctrine.
Almost every marine player agreed that the pre-defined traits are superior to self-built ones.
Neither part of the IF and CF tactics are available for build-your-own-chapter.
The chants are at the beginning of turn, so no super-charges from deep strike.
Gulliman was nerfed, no full re-rolls to wound in the codex anymore.
Drop pods are still worse than weird boys.
Flamers and meltas won't become great with +3" range at the cost of a decent chapter tactic. They also won't benefit from a doctrine when dropping T1 because they are assault weapons.
Gravis cannot ride the new transport nor drop pods, so no agressors jumping in your face.
Gravis units tend to be 3 models strong, so you need to deal 9 damage - pretty doable in my book. They are also limited to 18" range, so just don't run at them.

In general, nothing has changed in regards to Space Marine's range. Against pure marines all their long-range weaponry is vehicle based which are easily destroyed with SAGs, mek guns, planes and lootas.
Green tide might have a hard time now, but dakka orks just need to play a little more defensively. Running at a primaris horde was suicide before and has become even more suicide with the new codex.

We've allready moved away from hordes of boyz, so no big deal i guess. Most competitive ork lists have 30 boyz max.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Some of you must have missed the fact that the win rate for Orks has been steadily deceasing for some time and now sits at sub 50%.

We are no longer a top level faction. Tyranids perform better.

We're at 48% win rate, including all the jokers who bring trash lists, of which orks bring in abundance. We are 7% of the field and at 9% TWIP, meaning there are a higher percentage of players going undefeated than would be expected based on our field representation. What this means is that good players are outperforming expectations, probably because we have the tools to win but are a complex army to play. We are not a point and shoot list like knights (who perform exactly as expected), and thanks to every amateur that thinks you're supposed to run forward all game as orks, we get a lot of unfavorable data injected into our totals.

And if you look at the last two months of results, there has not been a single weekend where orks have not come top 4 in a GT/Major, with something around 5 events Orks coming first in that time frame. There are roughly 16 podium placements made by orks since 1st June, by contrast there have been 3 tyranids. Out of the recent ETC singles event Orks came 10th and 14th, nids best result was 50th.

Don't just throw out a percentage as if it means something. Data is more complicated than that. If you want to do well at an event, you would clearly play Orks over Nids. Orks are in a good spot right now, we may not be the best army in the game, but we are up there.