Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is the thing that got me wonder, grots shouldn't get +1 A with ghaz



Are we sure they qualify?

Gretchin have both the ORK and the INFANTRY keyword.

They do. But why would you want to do this? With Ghaz and a Waagh Banner, you could have 30 Grots making 60 WS3+, S2, AP0, D1 attacks, under ideal circumstances. Unless you're attacking other Grots, I doubt that will make much of a dent in anything, unless you roll extremely well.

 flandarz wrote:
I think we just have differing opinions on what is "trash", and that's fine. For the most part, I agree with the OP rankings, mainly in the competitive scene. Like, I feel like even a Stompa could put in some work in the right situations.

I suggest borrowing one and giving it a spin - most GW stores have one in their displays somewhere. You'll find that it dies really quickly and doesn't actually do more than a Morkanaut. Yet you are playing with roughly 25% of your army missing.

Right. I understand that. But there IS a certain point value where the Stompa WOULD be good, right? A 300pt decrease would bring it up a solid tier, at least. Same for Burnas; at the price they're sitting at, they aren't worth taking. But drop the price by 5ppm or so, and suddenly they become an attractive option.

The reason I say the Workshop is trash and nothing else is because there is NO point value in which I would consider the Workshop to be good. I can't think of a single situation where skipping a turn to become slightly more effective for a turn is a worthy tradeoff. But I can consider situations where the Stompa or Burna Boyz could be put to good use.

So, do I think these units are appropriately priced? No. But I believe there IS a point where they'd be worth taking and, to me, that makes them not trash. Just incredibly inefficient.

The difference between stompa and burnas is that stompa is just the question of price. But the 8” shooting range is more complex story. Burnas are useless for 9” DS so how else do you want to use them? Wait 2 turns in trukk to shoot (no strategems to boost it, wait to get to range) and than can not charge because you disembark the t3? It' s a tactical question more than point calculation. Burnas could be well to clean screens. But you need to clean the screens t1 and you have no chance to get them in range. That is the reason, why dakkajet is so great. Not only good price and power, but it shoots t1 what you need and where you need.

Pretty sure you can still move and charge after disembarking.
The only time you can't charge is if the unit had to disembark due to the vehicle getting destroyed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure you can still move and charge after disembarking.
The only time you can't charge is if the unit had to disembarking due to the vehicle getting destroyed.

Sure, but you come with transport to place, wait to next turn, than on the start of movement disembark and than move and charge. Maybe you can do it also t2, but it does not change the point of the story.

 flandarz wrote:
Right. I understand that. But there IS a certain point value where the Stompa WOULD be good, right? A 300pt decrease would bring it up a solid tier, at least. Same for Burnas; at the price they're sitting at, they aren't worth taking. But drop the price by 5ppm or so, and suddenly they become an attractive option.

I'm not sure that there is a point value where burnas would be worth taking but not and unhealthy auto-include because they become better gretchin. But for the stompa, yeah, sure.

The reason I say the Workshop is trash and nothing else is because there is NO point value in which I would consider the Workshop to be good. I can't think of a single situation where skipping a turn to become slightly more effective for a turn is a worthy tradeoff. But I can consider situations where the Stompa or Burna Boyz could be put to good use.

As you might have noticed, I invented a separate tier for the mek workshop. It's a narrative model, and that's all there is to it, competitive value is below zero. Units like the stompa or burnas are still trash, because adding them to your army will make you lose even under perfect circumstances for them.

So, do I think these units are appropriately priced? No. But I believe there IS a point where they'd be worth taking and, to me, that makes them not trash. Just incredibly inefficient.

That might your personal definition, but the general consensus is trash = "never worth taking". Points are a massive part of that decision, and must be evaluated in order to come to any conclusion.

Also note that you are basically saying that there are no trash units in the game besides the few terrain pieces which actively make you lose the game, because any model with a benefit no matter how small will become awesome at the point cost of one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
The difference between stompa and burnas is that stompa is just the question of price. But the 8” shooting range is more complex story. Burnas are useless for 9” DS so how else do you want to use them? Wait 2 turns in trukk to shoot (no strategems to boost it, wait to get to range) and than can not charge because you disembark the t3? It' s a tactical question more than point calculation. Burnas could be well to clean screens. But you need to clean the screens t1 and you have no chance to get them in range. That is the reason, why dakkajet is so great. Not only good price and power, but it shoots t1 what you need and where you need.

You can advance a trukk or battlewagon to get them within range, assault weapons can shoot even if they have advanced. But then you kill one unit of chaff, the enemy player tags your battlewagon in combat and your 300 points worth of burnas wagon will never do anything ever again.

Meanwhile, you can have three kustom bosta blastas with 18 burna shots, more speed and a pile of free guns for the same price - and they are still considered mediocre.

I thought I was pretty clear from the beginning that I was just stating my own opinion on the matter. I'm sorry if it came across otherwise. In the future, it'd be reasonable to assume that unless I'm pulling out some maths, I'm probably just throwing my opinion out there.

My opinion is mainly based around thought exercises. As in, I ask myself: "If I HAD to use Burnaz in an army, how would I do so? How much value could I get out of them? What are the strengths and weaknesses of this unit? And what things could be changed to make this unit better?" As was alluded to above, throwing 12 Burnaz, 3 Spannaz, and a Index Mek with KFF, KMB, and Oil Grot makes for a fairly mobile and durable mobile firing unit, though a prohibitively expensive one.

In other words, while I understand that many options we have have better alternatives or aren't worth the price, I can see value in almost all of them.

Well, if you use them as Evil Sunz and have a Warboss with them, you can get advance, use their flamethrowers, then charge, which should give them a bit of "burst" damage. Putting them in a vehicle will allow you to get them in combat by turn 2, provided the vehicle isn't destroyed.

Remember that when you disembark, you can still place them 3" from the vehicle, then advance, potentially giving you a 11"-16" move as Evil Sunz (3"+5"+1"+(D6+1)), which could be followed up by a Waagh charge.

Taking a spanner is pointless. Its a points sink that doesn't really offer anything, other than a KMB carrier. Which is risky if you aren't Deathskullz. The only reason why I have one in my burnas squad is because the kit forces you to build one for some stupid reason.

Burnas really need D6 shots. There's no reason why they have fewer number of shots compared to other flamers. If Thousand Suns can have a unit full of D6 flamers (which have a deadlier statline than burnas), then so can orks

Wouldn't a Trukk be a better Loota shield than grots? With grots you need to take a 35 point runt herd to avoid morale casualties, so for the price of a trukk you are taking 10 grots and a runtherd, which doesn't seem that durable. Not to mention that you have to burn a CP to use grotshield, and in matched play you can only use that once per phase. If you use it to protect Lootas you can't use it to protect anything else.

Nobody is going to be dumb enough to remove dead models a Burna squad just shot at that still allows a charge.
Either theyre an inch or two away, or they arent firing if they want to charge. And given how squishy anything boy related is, they want to charge to hope and get stuck in combat a turn.

Theres no way to get them that close without them getting shot first, and since theyre so easy to kill they dont take much effort to remove.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nobody is going to be dumb enough to remove dead models a Burna squad just shot at that still allows a charge.
Either theyre an inch or two away, or they arent firing if they want to charge. And given how squishy anything boy related is, they want to charge to hope and get stuck in combat a turn.

Theres no way to get them that close without them getting shot first, and since theyre so easy to kill they dont take much effort to remove.

Normally that would be true, but Orks can pull off some impressive long range charges thanks to their rerolls, especially if they have the Evil Sunz buff. I found that trying to deny charges like that isn't that easy against orks.
Besides, with a 11"-16" move they are bound to be close enough to the target to not fail a charge, even after shooting.

Getting stuck in combat in 8th isn't that reliable of a tactic due to free withdrawals, imo. I found that its better to get in there, deal as much damage as possible, and hope there will be enough left over to keep up the pressure. There should really be some Attacks of Opportunity against retreating units, being able to just walk out of combat for free doesn't feel right. So what if they can't shoot, if there are a bunch of ways to mitigate that and it doesn't stop everyone else from firing into the now exposed melee unit?
Or maybe -1 to hit against the unit that a squad retreated from.

 flandarz wrote:
My opinion is mainly based around thought exercises. As in, I ask myself: "If I HAD to use Burnaz in an army, how would I do so? How much value could I get out of them? What are the strengths and weaknesses of this unit? And what things could be changed to make this unit better?" As was alluded to above, throwing 12 Burnaz, 3 Spannaz, and a Index Mek with KFF, KMB, and Oil Grot makes for a fairly mobile and durable mobile firing unit, though a prohibitively expensive one.

That' s the right kind of question and you describe one scenario, that works. Not efective, but works.
The second version could be Chinork. Faster and get the burnas to efective range faster. Glass cannon, but fun. Any experience anyone?
Third option is put them in the big truck. It' s faster = better chance to get them, where we need them.

Interesting question is, what change the burnas effectivnes. I think, it' s not about points or D3/D6 shots. I think, that the game changer would be DS to less than 9”. Some other armies have it already, why not the orks? Could be simply added in to the game like some kind of spec detachement or whatever...

taking banner and ghaz means the enemy HAS to target the flashgitz and they get a 2+ grot shield, a 4+ save and a 6+ FNP. Plus those grotz are now hitting on 2s (Dangerous in large numbers, and banner) AND they have 2 attacks each,not a bad strat, and I would assume the other HQs are weirdboys which could give a mob of them +1 attacks which would mean 3 attacks hitting on 2s and wounding on 6s.

Dangerous in Large Numbers and Banner only get Grots to a 3+. They have a 5+ WS standard.

 flandarz wrote:
Dangerous in Large Numbers and Banner only get Grots to a 3+. They have a 5+ WS standard.

You are correct, i fat fingered They aren't very scary regardless, but they can eat up a lot of firepower and protect those flashgitz the entire game.

I noticed Kaptin Badrukk wasn't in the OP, where would people rank him?

Currently working on a triple SAG list that is predominantly freebootaz, looking to chuck him in and curious about peoples thoughts on him.

I'd put him at the same tier as Flashgitz. Blue. He's not bad, but suffers from the same problems they do.

Worth mentioning hes essentially Bad Moonz on his own and since he can be taken without messing with kulture benefits hes worth bringing even if you dont have flash gitz around.
I'd take him over a non-killaklaw boss any day.

His biggest problem is that he does not have breaking heads. Why you ask? They smoke their own glue at GW. That's why.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't a Trukk be a better Loota shield than grots? With grots you need to take a 35 point runt herd to avoid morale casualties, so for the price of a trukk you are taking 10 grots and a runtherd, which doesn't seem that durable. Not to mention that you have to burn a CP to use grotshield, and in matched play you can only use that once per phase. If you use it to protect Lootas you can't use it to protect anything else.

Ah, a couple of false assumptions in there.
You don't take runtherds for grot shields. You are bringing at least three units of gretchin, with some lists bringing up to six to generate the CP our army needs. You are basically throwing your useless CP generation units into bullets aimed at a great all-round shooting unit. Trukks don't generate CP.

If units of ten take casualties from morale, you just take the test. Sometimes they surprise you and some survive, or the unit gets wiped out before taking moral, or your warboss is still nearby or you just take the last three off the board. I never had a game where the moral casualties on gretchin would justified a runtherd.

In general, grot shield is an extremely powerful stratagem, as it redirects valuable long-range anti-infantry shooting towards the cheapest wounds in the game. There is no gun in the game that can kill gretchin efficiently at long range, so you always want something in your army that will draw fire towards a grot shield, because that makes your other stuff live longer. Whether it's lootas, flash gits or tank bustas (all three have been done successfully in tournaments) doesn't matter, you want that one powerful unit you can protect with grot shields.
There are few units worth protecting over our elite shooting units. What else would you want to use your grot shield on? Almost certainly not nobz or boyz.

TL;DR: Protecting one dedicated unit with throw-away grot shield is the proper way to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quackzo wrote:
I noticed Kaptin Badrukk wasn't in the OP, where would people rank him?

Currently working on a triple SAG list that is predominantly freebootaz, looking to chuck him in and curious about peoples thoughts on him.

Huh, I must have accidentally dropped him. But yeah, he should have been with flash gits.

Good point about the runtherd. Given his point cost he needs to keep 12 grots from running away to make back his points as unlike the warboss he doesn't have any other real purpose. Arguably he does have some close combat potential, but since he is basically a boy with more than 1 wound, he dies very quickly if he is ever shot at.

He is a great target for enemy sniper rifles as well. That 5 man scout squad or some ratlings will make short work of him.

If someone chooses to snipe the Grotherd instead of the SSAG, send them my way. I want to play this person who makes such bad decisions.

I like free index burnas on kommandos and that’s the only time I use those models...

What do people use to model big bomms on deffkoptas?

[size=12] A ssag has little to worry about from snipers due 1- sitting back possibly out of range, 2- a 4+ save versus a 6+, 3- a grot oiler to tank the first wound that gets through 4- you might also be willing to grot shield a ssag but you're not going to waste the strategem on a runtherd.

The runtherd is easy headhunter points. Or any of the maelstroms where you have to take out a character. Not to mention possibly also giving up first strike.

I am not saying that a runtherd is terrible, just that if you aren't taking a ton of grots he becomes more of a liability than an asset. I would rather take a warboss to babysit my chaff as he has much better utility.

gungo wrote:
I like free index burnas on kommandos and that’s the only time I use those models...

What do people use to model big bomms on deffkoptas?

Extra bombs from the plane kits. I use the boom bombs for both kinds of bommers because I like the look, so I have two skorcha bombs per plane to spare.

Pretty much anywthing works though, as there never has been an official model for the bomb. Just use the bag full of stikkbombs or extra stikkbomb-chukkas.

 Jidmah wrote:

If units of ten take casualties from morale, you just take the test. Sometimes they surprise you and some survive, or the unit gets wiped out before taking moral, or your warboss is still nearby or you just take the last three off the board. I never had a game where the moral casualties on gretchin would justified a runtherd.

Try unit of 30. Those are handy to have around due to the way casualty removal rules. With units of 10 fast moving army can use casualty removal rules to ensure they get to shoot PAST grot shield and T1 charges straight into lootas become viable.

A unit of 30 means you are investing more than what you need to unlock a batallion or a brigade

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

If units of ten take casualties from morale, you just take the test. Sometimes they surprise you and some survive, or the unit gets wiped out before taking moral, or your warboss is still nearby or you just take the last three off the board. I never had a game where the moral casualties on gretchin would justified a runtherd.

Try unit of 30. Those are handy to have around due to the way casualty removal rules. With units of 10 fast moving army can use casualty removal rules to ensure they get to shoot PAST grot shield and T1 charges straight into lootas become viable.

Why would a unit of 30 be more durable than 3 units of 10?